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woaiyumi

New Member
Sep 19, 2014
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China
Very interesting.
I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but it looks to me that you are using two parallel drive systems, electric, and ICE, with two parallel throttles.
I am wondering if you have a setup that allows the ICE to directly charge the electric system.

I am living in a small town in China at the moment, and yesterday I discovered a shop selling gas-electric hybrid scooters for ~$500.
I was fascinated. There is a tiny gas engine that just charges the batteries when needed. Usable range is extended roughly 6x over a similarly sized electric only scooter, according to the sales person.
 

Dan

Staff
May 25, 2008
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Moosylvania
So very fascinating, Woaiyumi!

I have been wondering about doing a build like that useing a small generator like this; http://www.harborfreight.com/900-pe...2-cycle-gas-recreational-generator-60338.html

Gen/edrive would seem to be the perfect comprimise for a MB. Unlimited range, no gear reduction, (loss of energy transmitted, parts to fail) and as long as you have gas, you go.

Do they have a webpage?

Sorry about the cross talk, BA. Just got excited. Really cool thought.
 

woaiyumi

New Member
Sep 19, 2014
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China
Yes, my thoughts exactly, would be simpler mechanically than a dual drive system...
Would be interested to hear BA's comments though.

I will visit the scooter shop and snap some photos. They probably do have a website, but I doubt it is in English.

For a portable generator, what I had in mind was something like this (these are rated for 220V, for use in China)

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.159.qgLAXH&id=38570686356&ns=1#detail

or this:
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.44.qgLAXH&id=17010199664&ns=1#detail

There are many options around for small generators, key would be finding a the least heavy and noisy...
The Harbor Freight Unit is 50 odd lbs and 90dB...
 

BarelyAWake

New Member
Jul 21, 2009
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It 'tisnt "cross talk" Dan, it's defo on topic for this thread lol :D

As for the subject, the T3 is indeed a parallel hybrid (dual drive) woaiyumi - & yes, initially one would think a series hybrid (gen edrive) "would be simpler mechanically" & it may be... but for our scale, our application, all else becomes somewhat more complicated & because of that the fabrication & thus the mechanical follows suit.

In the initial "daydream stage" I very much wanted to build a diesel electric series hybrid, as I pursued the thought I found "the key would be finding the least heavy and noisy" was very much a large part of the problem, or rather small enough as the case may be. Quickly finding diesels were out of the equation as there's none currently made nearly small enough, surprisingly the same can be said of most of the gasoline generators, except the particularly noisy two stroke ones - which also aren't known for efficiency, defeating the point of the T3's hybrid concept were I to use one.

More difficult still the search were one interested in maintaining the "50cc or less" displacement limitation I self-imposed, just in case I should later wish to register as a moped (ease of interstate travel)... it may be a "gray area" as the generator would be an indirect drive, but I felt I was splitting enough hairs already lol

Then there's the interesting aspect that such a series hybrid would in essence be running three power plants in a manner of speaking - the generator's internal combustion engine, the generator itself (basically a brushless motor) as well as the edrive, be it hub or mid-drive. Add in the battery packs for peak & reserve, and it's starting to become somewhat crowded, heavy & complicated indeed, suddenly the parallel drive started seeming "simpler mechanically" if only where to fit all these doodads & widgets.

Which was the final overall consideration with the T3's design & effected everything else to a large degree as I didn't just want to build a hybrid, I wanted to build one that was comfortable yet agile. Weight, ergonomics & handling characteristics were just as important as it's efficiency. Wheelbase length was a problem indeed even as a parallel, most of this build thread is silly ol' me obsessing over fractions of an inch, trying to cram way too much into not enough lol - a trailered genset for a series hybrid wasn't any kind of an option with the above in mind, far too cumbersome for daily use & negating the ability to haul a cargo trailer laden w/camping gear, another aspect of the T3's design.

I'm not saying a series hybrid can't be done or shouldn't be attempted - but every build is a compromise, what can be had & what can be made considerations themselves. In the end with what resources I had available & for what I wanted to achieve overall, the T3 was the best I could manage. I gave quite a bit of thought to potential alternatives both before & during the construction, I still even mull it over in me tired ol' brains to this day... but my best guesstamate was in order for me to build a series hybrid that met the T3's design specifications it would have taken at least twice the time & money, if I managed it at all. It would have entailed so much more fabrication, not least of which disassembling & redesigning so many more factory components to reconfigure them into what I wanted, due to the lack of availability of anything even close to what I needed.

The CRF50 clone & ehub already designed to do what I wanted in about the right size & shape as I needed left me the time & resources to attend to all the other aspects I wanted to incorporate as well, the "moments" for handling characteristics (overall size, ride height, wheelbase width & length) & ergonomics - not just seating position, but all the controls & the full suspension too.

It's not that a series isn't feasible, rather it's all about the compromise - what you're willing to accept as secondary for your more important primary. For me, the overall design took precedence over any individual aspect, unfortunately including my desire for a series rather then a parallel. Not to say a parallel hasn't it's advantages (ease of parts/repair, redundancy) or that I'm disappointed in the T3 (I luvs it lol), only that were I have insisted on having everything I initially desired, I'd still likely have little to show but a pile of parts to be ;)


There are some technical difficulties with a series in our scale more detailed then I thought should be addressed in this already lengthy post as they're dependent on particular choices, those choices seemingly infinite addressing the specific complications of each preemptively pretty much impossible - suffice to say the primary I encountered other then the size of "a portable generator" would be the voltage & current conversions, ideally the generator would produce the voltage & amperage you need directly - but unless you're willing to wind your own, you'll need inverters & converters to step down the common 110/220v AC gennys, all of which waste energy in the conversions, none of which I researched any further then that... again, not "impossible" jus' food fer thought :)
 

woaiyumi

New Member
Sep 19, 2014
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China
Thank you for taking to the time to explain your thought process!
Makes complete sense to me.
I hadn't considered the option of having two completely independent drive systems until I saw this build.
I guess that is what the Prius does, with a computer to decide which drive system to engage...where as in your design you can just choose by feel, or necessity.

I would love to see the math on which system is more efficient overall, series or parallel. I am starting I think that parallel may be a better choice for real-world use.
Where I live, 90% of people use electric scooters for daily inner city errands. Each housing complex has free scooter charging, so fuel cost for these scooter users is zero. Range and power prevent these scooters from being used between cities, hence my interest in gas electric systems...
 

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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No worries, 'tis what this thread is for after all :p

...I guess that is what the Prius does, with a computer to decide which drive system to engage...where as in your design you can just choose by feel, or necessity.
Yes, in addition I also sometimes use the T3 as pedal-electric only - if I'm ridin' with HPV cyclists, jus' clippin' down to the corner store or whatever, I jus' like the "stealth mode" sometimes, particularly the slow nighttime trail/path riding for that spooky yet peaceful effect lol

There is however a fairly simple modification to the electric drive throttle I've been meaning to add to enable an "automatic" ethrottle engagement, relative to the demand put on the four stroke & also override should I wish to maintain independent control. The two pics below are of a thumb ethrottle already modified to be cable activated, should I no more then add a vacuum actuator (common automotive part) & linkage to the intake of the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine), it would incrementally apply more ethrottle the greater the demand on the ICE - the "off" switch for the edrive would disable it, the cable ethrottle can always override;



...but I've not bothered as of yet, I like independent activation & the only real reason for this mod would be to aid "user friendliness" with the admittedly somewhat busy controls - as I've no problem with that "busyness" it's jus' one of those things I may or may not ever get around too lol

I would love to see the math on which system is more efficient overall, series or parallel. I am starting I think that parallel may be a better choice for real-world use...
I strongly suspect a properly designed series hybrid would be significantly more efficient, all other aspects being equal ofc. It's that maintained low RPM of the ICE to no more then constantly charge the battery packs, the packs absorbing peak use that does it - in contrast the parallel hybrid's ICE ranges from idle to full throttle constantly & we all know the differences in fuel consumption that means.

If for example a series hybrid can maintain charge with the ICE running at a steady 2000 - 3000rpm with only a medium to effectively no load (depending on charge state) vs the parallel hybrid's ballpark averages of 30% max load/around 6000rpm, 60% cruise/about 4800rpm & 10% idle/no load... I think it's pretty certain a series would prove more fuel efficient. There is the complication that the electric drive would need be around 2000+ watts as the sole drive vs the parallel 750w assist, increasing load on a generator & the packs it charges... but ya get the idea ;)

Constant cruise/highway vs lots of stop n'go urban would alter things, which would be better for each dependent on too many factors for me to guess - again as my usage is mixed, my estimates reflect that ofc...
 
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woaiyumi

New Member
Sep 19, 2014
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China
Do they have a webpage?

Yes, I visited that shop today to ask about a website.
Here it is:
http://www.xingyuezc.com/haohua1.html

If you are using Google Chrome, you can right click and select "translate page" to see English. Any text that is part of an image will not be translated of course.

They are claiming around 194 mpg on this particular bike, and it sells for $500USD in China. I am seriously considering purchasing one : )
 

woaiyumi

New Member
Sep 19, 2014
7
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China
There is however a fairly simple modification to the electric drive throttle I've been meaning to add to enable an "automatic" ethrottle engagement, relative to the demand put on the four stroke & also override should I wish to maintain independent control. The two pics below are of a thumb ethrottle already modified to be cable activated, should I no more then add a vacuum actuator (common automotive part) & linkage to the intake of the ICE (Internal Combustion Engine), it would incrementally apply more ethrottle the greater the demand on the ICE - the "off" switch for the edrive would disable it, the cable ethrottle can always override;

Sounds like a good addition if you were ever planning to make this into a product...

If I lived in Maine, I would try to make one of these in a second. My next home will likely be Tokyo, so I am more interested in building a gas electric hybrid bicycle at the moment... trikes are awesome, but probably wouldn't be accept in downtown Tokyo ;)
 

woogie_man

New Member
Aug 9, 2013
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Fargo, ND
Looking at buying dome plans from the same company....how would you rate the plans?

Awesome looking build, have read a few pages and had to quit early.
 

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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Thanks woogie - a tip on this thread though is to start from the end lol, I gets a bits babbly :p

As for the Zombie plans, I couldn't recommend them enough, they're an exceptional resource for the DIY fabricator with excellent, accurate depictions & lots of tips & tricks. The T3 ended up far different then anything Zombie might have had in mind, but they still helped immensely with technical specifications & inspiration both ;)
 

HackD

Member
Oct 25, 2014
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Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Great build, and great thread. I'm glad that you spent the time to document all of it. Pictures are worth a thousand words, in addition to description.

This is just great - haven't even really accumulated the parts necessary to have a good start at this winter's MAB.. and i'm sitting here idling away a few evenings and soaking the details of your build in .. and entertaining highly ambitious visions of a similar hybrid version...

Great inspiration, thanks for it.
 

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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Thank ya kindly :) To be completely honest the purpose of the documentation is admittedly twofold - the first being ofc to share me mistakes as so others may spare themselves some suffering, but the second is simply to remind meself what the heck I mighta done ta do what I did, the part numbers in particular have come in handy lol

I should also mention that while I enjoy the hybrid aspect, it isn't particularly cost effective if your interested in primarily practicality, the fuel saved & preformance gained not necessarily offsetting the price of the components. I'm quite pleased with it (fortunately lol) but I'd recommend playing with electrics first (as you've already done the gasbike thang) to see if it's for you, as you can always combine it w/another gasbike later for the hybrid thing if you should so choose ;)
 

silverbear

The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Jul 9, 2009
8,325
670
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northeastern Minnesota
Hello old friend! I see you have bike riding weather again in Maine. Must be good to take the tadpole out for a run. It looks as fine as ever. What a machine! Does the old Rollfast ever get ridden?

Still a touch of winter in northern Minnesota with fresh snow, but spring is getting bouncy and the lakes are free of ice at last. I've yet to have a bike out on the road, but will soon.
SB
 

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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I hope you're back out riding sooner rather then later, gettin' hard to tell what with the crazy weather of late. The thermometer so schizophrenic I wonder if it's broken lol

The Rollfast never gets ridden any more sad to say, it got partially stripped & parked well over a year ago now (two? time flies). Thoroughly sick of replacing the shift kit's pedal crank freewheel every thousand miles or so I considered fabricating my own jackshaft assembly similar to the taddy's, then realized for the fuss & bother I should just keep an eye out for an ol' hit n'miss single for it... it's not that the 66cc two stroke is insufficient as it's actually the best of them I've had (that 'uns ebay), it's just for the fabrication I might as well install a more appropriate engine is all.
 

BarelyAWake

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Jul 21, 2009
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Thanks Silver ;)

Seems the tad is a heck of a lot better at haulin' firewood then it is hittin' the trails lol... ofc my trailer is displeased either way... silly thing, I still need to make a better one;