The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Thanks Cog - Turkey Day proved ideal for makin' the death metal noises, I got a bunch done... although I'll freely admit that as I'd never done a "stretch chopper" of any sort before, I was more than a lil nervous about it. The first frame attempt it didn't matter as the top half was useless anyway, this one however I needed to retain as much as possible - there's very little wiggle room for error. Needing to take at least 2" off the height - I had no idea if the vertical supports were gonna line up again as the fronts and rear are at slightly different angles. Not only that but as they're at an angle, removing a chunk would bring the top of the chassis back some... while I need and want that, the "how much and where" was a lil troublesome. So I "cheated" again and loaded a profile shot into photoshop & did a lil "virtual" hack job, while it can't be trusted completely due to perspective & distortion - it showed clearly that'd it'd be close... close 'nuff anyway lol

Placing the engine in the empty, uncut frame I took some measurements - the carburetor and the cylinder head the closest points. While it looked like I could get away with choppin' a full three inches outa there - I decided to play it safe and take only two, figurin' that not only would my cuts be a lil sloppy, it's far easier to take a lil more off than to put it back heh. Using 1" wide masking tape, I wrapped the frame with two strips, making a 2" band where I wanted to make the cuts. This allowed me to easily see where I was cutting and provided the strips line up with themselves, the tape itself provides a good, straight line around the tubing.

Dragging the carcass outside, I started hacking at it before I lost my nerve and spent another buncha hours going over the same old measurements again heh, first to go were the front spindle mounts, then some lateral supports, then the 2" out of the three vertical bars, then finally the whole front end as it was completely useless. As the dust settled I looked at the now tiny pile of scrap and wondered where my frame had gone... Picking up the two halves I was amazed at how little it weighed - both halves together less than just the bottom section I was first gonna use! Mumbling to myself "power to weight, power to weight" to reassure, I brought the amputated chunks back inside to see just what I had done.

...and it now looks sorta like this (click to view);


...as as before, this is nothing but a rough mock up - nothing is bolted or welded together & in fact I'm thinkin' of takin' another 1/4" - 1/2" off the front.... gonna hafta think about that one though - while I already will need to pull the intake manifold off to get the engine out of the frame, any lower and the carby will hafta be on the outside of the frame tubes... while that's fine, I'm gonna rebuild the front end and suspension before I chop the frame anymore - the other front end wont work as I've cut too much off it before I did this & I should prolly wait and see before I get too excited with the cutoff wheel lol

Still, as ya can see in the final two pics, I've got a fuel tank perfect for it's location, it's even split up the middle to clear the rear suspension & wheel! The stock (and very crusty) exhaust system bolts right up - lookin' like it belongs there. I'll no doubt get a performance exhaust & put header wrap on the pipe - but that's not high on the list of priorities just yet lol, there's still a LOT of finagling to do, while most things are "close" - close isn't good enough and I've still gotta figure out the entire front suspension & mounts... "to be continued" as they say heh

 

[silverbear]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

I ran across this ebay listing and immediately thought of your mutant tadpole... the similarities are so striking! Well, a few differences, but you will note the one wheel in back and two up front, just like yours!
Your build is coming right along, Barely. You know sometimes when I'm trying to do something a little different on a build I discover that if only there was another 1/8" something would fit or would clear. There is just so much room on any bicycle, but your build would drive me bonkers. I salute your patience, planning and ingenuity. If I tried what you're doing it would no doubt turn out more like the Messerschmidt moped below and if it did, I'd still be thrilled. Keep those pictures coming.
SB

 

[Cogswelln]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Glad to see some new pics although just a mock up. definitely looking good. cant wait till i have the chance to race ya lolz....

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Silver - that's an epic pic! That's one sweet ride & I wish I could check one out up close - I've wanted a "parts runner" for a while to pick up dead bikes & whatnot and that'd be perfect

Yea... the taddy is more than a lil cramped for parts placement, it'd be far easier ifn I just copped out and added a foot to it's wheelbase, but much like "every ounce counts" so is "every inch important" and one of the reasons I simply assumed this build would take forever is the attempt to cram everything into as small a space possible, to keep as close to a racing trike's moments as is to be reasonably expected. It's why I keep "assembling" it and taking it apart again w/o permanently mounting - I can't quite envision all the systems simultaneously (tried = brain xplodes) so I fit a system & see what that leaves me, fit another - then try 'em together... only to find there's another whirly bit that needs ta go there lol, compounded by having to account for some parts I've not even gotten yet heh

TBH when I first saw Dan's thread: http://motorbicycling.com/f3/rube-goldberg-mb-contest-25469.html I thought to myself "that's my taddy he's talkin' about"


Cog - ifn ya think about it man, there's a good chance you'd destroy this taddy in a race w/your trike, you've got such a power to weight advantage it's not even funny! There's so many "maybes" and unknowns w/this build I can't predict at all what the outcome may be - but despite how it looks, I'm building for "quiet comfort & efficiency" more than raw speed, even the electric "boost" to assist acceleration might be futile due to the weight penalty - there's no way to really tell till it's up & runnin', but were I a betting man, I'd not be to quick to bet on my taddy in a race w/ya lol, particularly w/your shiftkit.

Now... ifn ya wanna race yer trike against my Rollfast, I'll be yer huckleberry heh

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Oh right - been meaning to mention this for a while now and spaced it ofc

I've said previously that I'm a bit of an 'lectric n00b & sadly it's true - yet one of the major reasons to add the 'Pie into the mix was simply an excuse to play w/toys new and unfamiliar. I figured from the get-go that no matter my inexperience, off-the-shelf electric hub drives are so wonderfully simplistic & self contained I could just tack it on almost like an afterthought & deal with "marrying" the two systems together as much as possible later, after the build was up & running.

However, another reason I got the 'Pie instead of a less expensive hub drive w/the same output (tho it's also tru the 'Pie is quite feature rich) is it's awesome support forum. While a lil worried they'd shun me for the unforgivable sin of an ICE, turns out that not only are they cool w/it, they're offering their significant knowledge & experience to help me successfully join the two - namely charging systems & sharing batteries.

If yer interested in what is to me the somewhat incomprehensible mysteries of switchmode transformers, inverters, generator buffered inverter chargers, variable regenerative controllers & all sortsa terrifying math - tryin' to figure out the taddy's "best option" for it's pending electrical system, ya outa check out this thread: tribrid-tadpole (R&D)

Ya'll didn't think I was gonna tackle that by meself didja? lol - the only thing I know fer certain 'bout 'lectrics is... if ya let all the smoke out, they don't work no more

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

...and life being what it is I've not gotten as much done as I'd like lol, but I figure so long as I do a lil sumfin' each day, it'll all add up eventually ...right?

Anyway, one of the million lil unknowns with this project that was giving me a serious migraine was it's gear ratios - while there's a ton of general info regarding such for say the HF & the HT motors, there's nothing for the Lifan, most notably it's reduction ratio... This isn't such a big problem if you're running a direct drive to a single sprocket on the left - but as I'm runnin' a jackshaft to the other side & using the bike's cassette & derailleur AND math isn't my favorite thing in the world, I cheated - and sent Jim at SBP a desperate "halp me please" email. Thankfully, although I'm not using their shiftkit he was more than happy to help & after a few questions concerning the engine, offered his educated guess. As the exact reduction ratio for the Lifan is unknown, it can only be "ballparked" but I figure his guesstimate outa be waaaaay closer than mine lol

So, following Jim's advice I'm gonna try running a 24 tooth sprocket off the engine's main gear, then trying a 11 tooth driving the rear cassette. That outa give me around a 5 to 1 reduction which "is like running a 50 tooth rear sprocket in HT single speed terms" in the Lifan's lowest range. While no doubt I'll need to fiddle around & swap a sprocket size or two, I figure this is close 'nuff for the prototype stage. Odds are I'll be leaving the Lifan in it's midrange, only using it's low for trails/very steep hills *shrug* but there's no way to tell this early on.

With that info, I went ahead and ordered an 11t sprocket, a coupla retaining collars, a freewheel adapter for the pedal chain and a pair of sealed bearings - all of which is now listed on SBP's website here if yer interested: Sick Bike Parts LLC. While I could have sourced out the parts from wherever, I've got a SBP shiftkit on another bike with well over 4500 miles on it now and have always been impressed with it's bearings in particular - while I did gently pry out their dust covers and repack them with a quality marine grade bearing grease when they were new, that's all I've ever done to them other than beat on them mercilessly lol - conveniently enough they're also exactly the right OD to fit in the rear stay's bottom bracket perfectly after only dremeling down the threads flush. I also figured it'd be handy to have all interchangeable parts between my bikes... as much as possible anyway lol

While I've not gotten the 24t main or the freewheel sprocket yet, I did fit the bits together to check fit & alignment (the 11t on the engine side supposed to be a 24t) & as I was at it, got the rear shock & stay placement figured out as well. The 5/8" shaft is obviously way too long but I'll trim that down when I have all the proper sprockets.

It doesn't look like much - but I'll tell ya what, it's coming together nicely & I'm stoked lol, here's a coupla more pics (click to view)

 

[silverbear]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Coming along, Barely. I wanted to ask you a question sort of related to this thread. I don't know squat about 3 wheelers having last ridden one around sixty years ago. It was smaller than yours and was the regular setup with one in front, two in back. No motor and had a little ding ding bell on the handle bar. Maroon and chain drive. I don't have a picture and besides, who cares? What I wanted to ask is this. Say you had a three wheeler that was adult sized and not a lay down model like yours, but upright so an old guy could look around and not be in any danger of falling asleep while riding recumbent, motoring along. Is having two wheels in front and one in back inherently more stable than the other way around? Seems like it would be, but what do I know? You're smart and have studied up on all this, so which is less tippy say on corners? Before I get too old to know what's up I'll be making a three wheeler for my most senior geezer years and am now thinking maybe a mutant tadpole is in my future, but a sit up and look around model. I want to stand out at the senior center, be bold and different, make the old seniorita girls wonder if that guy with the long hair is riding backwards. Shake 'em up, you know. I so want to be cool and also not tip over.
SB

 

[corgi1]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Well,looking at the motor (50cc?)and the complimentry assist from a stop electric motor (and if it will kick out above useful torque), if the traction is there, are we looking at a concervite guess of 60 mph in the space of 100-150 feet ?And then 3 gear,lol

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

O.O Geez, I hope not corg - I'd never be able ta keep tires on the thing lol, actually I would as I be too terrified to ride it!

Now... w/the massive weight loss & huge power gain of a 9hp Morini instead of the weighty four stroke & batteries, then you'd have some insane acceleration - and believe me I considered it lol, but TBH I will be happy if this taddy has the same performance parameters as my far lighter two stroke two wheelers Have ya seen this guy BTW? Nothin' like about 28HP ta getcha where yer goin' lol: YouTube - Extremely high power E-bike tadpole trike


Silver - I for one woulda loved to have seen a pic of you as a kid on yer trike heh, but to answer as best I can, all "lay down" recumbent configurations are inherently more stable regardless of where the wheels are - simply due to the lower center of mass, but yea - the "tadpole" (two in front) is significantly far more stable than the "Delta" (two in back) as there's wheels where the weight goes in a turn, that pesky centrifugal force thang lol. Say yer gonna make a left turn on a trike (so no leaning), as ya do so - all your weight shifts to right/front - with the taddy, there's a wheel there, with the delta there isn't so your left rear wheel picks up off the ground and the trike wants to roll, that I'm sure anyone who's ever ridden a tricycle as a kid remembers heh

I threw together a quick pic, the red lines represent the direction of weight shift in a turn due to centrifugal force, as you can see - a delta design isn't as well suited to "high speed" cornering as the tadpole;

Now ofc the "real world" steps in ta muddy things up naturally, weight low and two wheels in front only helps - but ya can still get unstable, even flip a taddy;

& there's deltas designed to be "drifters" too - these guys jus' never got over the "Big Wheels" they had, and that's jus' kinda awesome YouTube - D1 Drifter Trikes

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

BTW, before anyone gets the idea I'm some sorta "expert" er sumfin' - I dunno if I've mentioned this or not, but ALL of the info in this thread is theoretical & based purely on math & research alone, I have never, not once ever ridden any sorta tadpole trike in my life lol - home built, commercial, motorized or otherwise

A buddy at the local bike shop is enthused about my lil project and has offered a "test ride" - takin' one of the (ridiculously expensive) tadpoles they've got for a pedal around... I prolly should... ya know, to get a feel for what I'm getting into and alla that heh - but where's the adventure, the mystery & discovery ifn I do somethin' like that?

 

[silverbear]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Thanks for your reply. This will give me something to think about and study. The thought rolling around in my head is of a convertible early days looking cruiser... straightbar frame like a Panther or your Rollfast... with a 5 hsp briggs motor all set up as a two wheeler, but with a convertible feature where at the front fork tube the fork comes out and a tadpole front end goes in in it's place making it a three wheeler. I'm over simplifying and it would need more tie in to the frame of the bike, but you get the idea. Actually a convertible in three ways. A stand alone two wheeler, a detachable canoe sidecar to fit on to it or with the different front end a tadpole with the sidecar body now on a two wheeled trailer pulled behind. (The dog has to have her ride). Something to think about. The ultimate geezer 3 in 1 ride. Sigh...
Your dream machine inspires others to dream, too. That's a good thing, my friend, to inspire dreams. It makes the world a better place.
SB

 

[silverbear]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Don't mean to highjack your thread, Barely, just want to talk a little about tadpoles, kind of like hanging out while you're working on your project and shooting the breeze about related stuff. The picture is something Fasteddy shared with me as he's gimpy, too, and for that reason we share an interest in sidecars, three wheelers, etc. I don't know where he found it, but I think that bike is just beautiful and can't stop thinking about it. So I'm seeing a panther frame, a five horse Briggs with a kick start, nice cream tires like that and handmade wheels. So while you're lying on the floor turning wrenches give some daydream time to that tadpole front end in the picture and whether or not I'm nuts for thinking of a convertible bike. Some other time we can talk about it maybe.
SB

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

lol silver, I've no problem at all with yappin' about whatever as ya've prolly noticed

Yesterday got a lil crazy at work is all & I wasn't able to spend as much time on the forum as I'd like - the holidays are driving everyone into a frenzy

Anyhoo... other than stating the obvious, like that's an incredibly cool bike in the pic, I really dunno... One the one hand I figure that with an upright seating position having only two wheels & being able to lean into turns is prolly the most stable configuration... but on the other hand I suppose that depends on riding style & preferences, even the limitations of the rider. For gentle use, cruising roads with a wide shoulder at "slower" speeds, I can see the attraction of an upright trike as it'd provide comfort & stability and a good field of view. Yet there's a downside as with anything, all bikes being a compromise lol - and that'd be "high speed" stability with the higher center of mass...

Each build is so dependent on the rider & their usage that there's almost no "meeting ground" when it comes to the more exotic builds, what I find perfect may be unsuitable to another - while I'm not particularly gimpy (yet) I do suffer a bit from some lower back problems and that's one of the minor contributing factors in my decision to experiment with a recumbent. However, if one had say, leg problems that made it difficult to dismount a ride so low to the ground or suffer cramps/pinched nerves from the pedal crank position - then by all means an upright trike would be a far better build for them, provided swinging a leg up & over isn't an issue... in which case a lower seating position (but not as low as a recumbent) may be ideal, say like a "chopper" style or simply 24" wheels...

TBH, tadpoles & recumbents are completely new to me and that alone is the primary reason I decided to start tinkerin' w/them, but other additional factors included one fairly awkward, even "greedy" desire - I wanted to experiment with the combination of the horizontal four stroke, electric & batteries, suspension & comfy seat - all in one build no less... and that left me with pretty much only two options, a stretch chopper w/a backrest & sidecar - or a mutant tadpole... given part of the equation was maximum range & durability, I opted for the surprisingly simpler tadpole.

There are ofc yet more factors confusing the issue and another one is aesthetics. While that's entirely subjective - I'll admit I find recumbent tadpoles... odd looking to say the least lol, actually all recumbents I find to be a lil strange lookin' - my brain freakin' out a bit trying to envision hurtling around feet-first heh. I hope I'm not offending anyone, but obviously I've decided to forgo any aesthetic considerations with his 'un, hoping that the mechanics alone will give it "the look"... or at least not be displeasing to the eye heh

As you know, the Rollfast was my attempt to make a machine visually attractive as well as practical, the grace of vintage machines something I personally find to a bit lost with modern engineering. Yet I found there were some limitations with that style regarding incorporating some of the advantages of "modern engineering" - such as the exemplary stopping power of disk brakes and the comfort of a full suspension. While obv this can be done, I thought disks would detract from it's looks and the ol' springers - while effective, haven't the travel for the poorly paved roads around here at the speeds I tend to run... but again, that's personal preference & utilization and is entirely dependent on the rider. I love my Rollfast - but I couldn't for the life of me figure out how to incorporate all of the aspects I wanted in another vintage build... so I gave up on looks this time around and went for nothing but machine - which if I can manage it, tends to have a "look" all it's own and sometimes that can be pretty cool looking *shrug*

So, I guess it all boils down to the "right" tool for the job - what that job is and if it's "right" up to the rider alone. Such diversity is a wonderful thing, but it can be confusing and as such I dunno if I can be much assistance, particularly considering my inexperience with trikes of any sort - but I'm more than willing to babble about them anytime, anywhere heh, any and all conversation relating even remotely to the subject I figure an excellent opportunity to gain perspective, even ideas I'd not considered, taking me to places overlooked in my preoccupation with simply tryin' to get all the pieces ta fit

Speaking of which, because of our convo I hunted around a bit and found these as interesting examples of vintage rides, perhaps something to inspire lol (click to view);

1869 tadpole patent: 1889 steam trike patent: & a recumbent bike patent from1902:

 

[ferball]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

SB I was thinking of working of a similiar idea with removable front end to go from trike to standard bike. Barely's and Gstrope's thread have inspired me tackle a homemade recumbent trike project this winter, and as I research it and look at existing designs I don't think it would take much to make an inter changeable front end. I have to say though whatever I come up with will not look half as professional as the one Barely is putting together, but it is fun to follow his progression

 

[Cogswelln]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

SB that indian trike is awesome its making me want to try to build one.
BA you may not be an "expert" but you are always very knowledgable through various aspects of your builds. It looks like it is coming along nicely. but im off to wait for the usps, so i can go for a cruise in a little while

 

[silverbear]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

In an effort to "return to our regular programming" I have started a thread called "Indian Tadpole" so that I don't high jack Barely's thread any more than I already have. My apologies, Barely. You are very tolerant, sir. Many thanks.
SB

 

[BarelyAWake]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

No apologies needed silver - but it's sweet that ya made another thread, not that I minded ofc, but methunks that idea plenty worthy 'nuff to warrant it's own thread & I see it's takin' off w/a good start! Here's the link for anyone interested, defo check it out: http://motorbicycling.com/f44/indian-tadpole-25692.html



Been busy as heck lately... BUT my shiny new wheelset is finally done whoohoo! With two Quando 20mm sealed bearing hubs, two Kenda 20x1.50 Kwest tires on two Alex 20x1.5 DA-16 front rims w/stainless spokes and a Continental 'ComfortContact' 26x2.1 tire on the rear - hopefully I'll manage to stay on the road lol

After much deliberation - I decided to exchange the disk brake set I had for the newest edition of the same (three Avid BB5 sets) as I was short one rotor... odd as it may sound the cost of just one rotor alone is about $2 less than a new caliper WITH a rotor included As illogical as that may be, partic given the replacement rotor was "stock" and not an upgrade - I figured I'd just get all three sets new & matching *shrug* I've one already (pictured) but I'm waiting on the other two to be delivered... and despite my previous comments regarding the (lack of) aesthetic considerations w/this build - I'll admit I'm pleased these calipers are painted black & I'm diggin' this rotor style more than the older one heh

 

[silverbear]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Yes, those are good looking wheels all right. And as you have confessed in the past, you are a "slave to fashion". Your artistic sensibilities are everywhere on this build. Some people see these motored devices as 'just' machines capable of transporting us and are mostly interested in "how fast can it go?". But sometimes they are more like functional, moving sculpture, especially for those of us who appreciate wheels and levers and gears and things that go vroooom. You've got yourself a piece of art there, Barely.
SB

 

[Dan]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

Uber cool BA. What a great and comfortable concept. The seat contouring to the engine really is awesome looking. If I ever get the jet thing to work, am sending you one. Could put "Bat-Mobile" wings on it for Halloween. "Jet" down down the road singing nanana-nanana-Bat-Man...

I couldn't help but think how your design would be perfect for folks who can't use their legs. Not to ramble but a friend of ours has a child, now 9 who has trouble walking. We got him a pedal 3 wheeler bike and the kid was just gone! I mean *g a w n* lol. Off to see and explore. Could go see his Dad when ever he felt like it. (lived 2 blocks away) None of us, Mom or even Issac realized how (not in a good way) he was grounded.

Can't wait to see vids and more pics. SB is right, functional art for sure.

 

[ferball]

re: The Bent Zombie Tribrid Tadpole Trike (build phase)

I am starting to think I am gonna have to make a trip to maine and check this beast out when it is done.