Woot! Friction drive by the Cannonball method. Just like the folk who saw the first powered flight at Kitty Hawk I can tell my grandchildren that I was there (in a manner of speaking) when the Cannonball Friction Drive was invented 
More Maytag Mayhem
- Thread starter cannonball2
- Start date
I think we should call it the Cannonball Spoke Drive. I hope you can get the gearing worked out. "That there Maytag is well spoken".
SB
SB
Update on the SA AW Spoke drive: Made a mount for the shift cable to mount on the hubs mount so the tension doesn't change while clutching. The AW is very picky about the indexing of second gear, one mm out of adjustment and it will go into a false neutral. They were noted for this. I rebuilt the Shimano shifter with good used parts. It now shifts positively and indexes the AW perfectly. Am only using first and second as I haven't lowered the ratio yet. First winds to 15 and second 22. Wont pull third as it is now.
The crazy spoke drive really works well! Seems real easy on the tire. I will need to remove the spoke nipples and Loctite them as they seem to loosen a bit. Not a big deal. Got another drive idea to try as soon as I can scare up an old used coaster hub to use as a test subject.
The crazy spoke drive really works well! Seems real easy on the tire. I will need to remove the spoke nipples and Loctite them as they seem to loosen a bit. Not a big deal. Got another drive idea to try as soon as I can scare up an old used coaster hub to use as a test subject.
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Thanks! They are not complicated to make. If used with the locking collar mounting system they are an easy and very adjustable bolt on. Both of these were for the narrower hub width, 127mm? I think. I generally make them wider than the actual hubs width to allow fine tuning of the drive lines with shims/washers. They could also be made adjustable by making the hub "U" bracket moveable. A nice addition would be a set of adjusters like used on the horizontal drop out fixie bikes to allow easy adjustments for the drive chain/belt and precise alignment. The hub walks a bit when tightening requiring a few redos to get it where you want it. Fortunately adjustments are only required if you move the hub for some reason. They stay put otherwise.
Wouldn't it be nice if someday a person could buy one of your brackets to use with their own IGH? It could be a salvaged hub like Miss Piggy or a more certain new one from S.A. (even a 5 speed). This geared drive system eliminates so many hassles (and expenses) associated with "normal" drive lines and holds the promise of also minimizing the drawbacks of friction drive... namely tire wear and slippage in wet conditions. It also could be driven by an electric motor instead of a gas engine. Gears maximize the power of a motor making for greater longevity, less fuel consumed and making smaller engines viable power units. Win, win, win.
What is easy for an artisan like CB2 to put together is a more daunting enterprise for most of us, especially ones who do not weld. One reason the China girl motors are so successful and dominate the motor bicycle market is that they are bolt on with simple tools, theoretically plug and play. Unfortunately they are also poorly made with questionable materials, so that too often they are plug & play & repair.
The beauty of the "Cats Meow" IGH Spoke Drive is that it leaves a lot of room open for engine choices by the home builder. With a reliable motor and this drive system I think a really great, low cost commuter could result. Yes, it would be real good if it were possible to order one of these bracket systems ready made. It would be a great service to the motor bicycle community, in my opinion. Might even be a game changer...
SB
What is easy for an artisan like CB2 to put together is a more daunting enterprise for most of us, especially ones who do not weld. One reason the China girl motors are so successful and dominate the motor bicycle market is that they are bolt on with simple tools, theoretically plug and play. Unfortunately they are also poorly made with questionable materials, so that too often they are plug & play & repair.
The beauty of the "Cats Meow" IGH Spoke Drive is that it leaves a lot of room open for engine choices by the home builder. With a reliable motor and this drive system I think a really great, low cost commuter could result. Yes, it would be real good if it were possible to order one of these bracket systems ready made. It would be a great service to the motor bicycle community, in my opinion. Might even be a game changer...
SB
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CB2,
Okay..like a virus, it is slowly eating away at what is left of me brain. What is your idea for a brake type S.A. 3 speed hub? Enquiring minds want to know!
I am so impressed with what you have done with Miss Piggy and this drive system. I see so much promise in it and although I have sworn to meself that the current batch of projects are the absolute and finally last motorbikes on the menu ever. No more! Finish the ones you've got! Silverbear is old and creaky, getting ready to join The Great Bear up there at the big dipper. Running out of time, etc. etc.
However... what's one more little one that is easyish, eh? Just one. Wouldn't cost much. Environmentally friendly. A service to mankind and all that. What I'm contemplating is using a nice mountain bike I found at the dump earlier this winter which appears to have nothing wrong with it, but probably has some unseen ailment in the department of derailleurs. Brakes work, suspension forks, knobby tires hold air. It doesn't have much room for an engine unless fitted to the rear rack, but I'm thinking that a nice and quiet electric motor would easily fit into the frame and would be nice in union with a "Cats Meow" IGH 3 speed S.A. transmission. I think I would try making an aluminum mount using a CB antennae mount I bought for another project and didn't use. I have some alumarod or whatever it is called for soldering aluminum together and lots of scrap aluminum to work with. Why not? Use whatchagot. Keep it low tech for the average guy with fewer resources. See if I can do it. Three speed electric. Laptop battery pack. Spoke drive. It is something to think about and a reason to hang on to that mountain bike.
Besides your growing expertise with friction drive and now IGH transmissions I know you have also played with electric bikes. What would you suggest for an electric motor, so that I can start planning this out? I'm pretty good sized at 225 lbs, but would use this for local riding at a top speed limit in town of 30mph (20 is fine, too) and pulling a kiddie trailer for the wonder dog and groceries. Low cost is a great asset. Any thoughts on this?One reason for doing the project would be to thoroughly document it as an encouragement to try the Cats Meow spoke drive setup with salvaged IGH transmission. Something very low tech and doable on a budget. An alternative to a China Girl kit bike. I'd like to see it done.
SB
Okay..like a virus, it is slowly eating away at what is left of me brain. What is your idea for a brake type S.A. 3 speed hub? Enquiring minds want to know!
I am so impressed with what you have done with Miss Piggy and this drive system. I see so much promise in it and although I have sworn to meself that the current batch of projects are the absolute and finally last motorbikes on the menu ever. No more! Finish the ones you've got! Silverbear is old and creaky, getting ready to join The Great Bear up there at the big dipper. Running out of time, etc. etc.
However... what's one more little one that is easyish, eh? Just one. Wouldn't cost much. Environmentally friendly. A service to mankind and all that. What I'm contemplating is using a nice mountain bike I found at the dump earlier this winter which appears to have nothing wrong with it, but probably has some unseen ailment in the department of derailleurs. Brakes work, suspension forks, knobby tires hold air. It doesn't have much room for an engine unless fitted to the rear rack, but I'm thinking that a nice and quiet electric motor would easily fit into the frame and would be nice in union with a "Cats Meow" IGH 3 speed S.A. transmission. I think I would try making an aluminum mount using a CB antennae mount I bought for another project and didn't use. I have some alumarod or whatever it is called for soldering aluminum together and lots of scrap aluminum to work with. Why not? Use whatchagot. Keep it low tech for the average guy with fewer resources. See if I can do it. Three speed electric. Laptop battery pack. Spoke drive. It is something to think about and a reason to hang on to that mountain bike.
Besides your growing expertise with friction drive and now IGH transmissions I know you have also played with electric bikes. What would you suggest for an electric motor, so that I can start planning this out? I'm pretty good sized at 225 lbs, but would use this for local riding at a top speed limit in town of 30mph (20 is fine, too) and pulling a kiddie trailer for the wonder dog and groceries. Low cost is a great asset. Any thoughts on this?One reason for doing the project would be to thoroughly document it as an encouragement to try the Cats Meow spoke drive setup with salvaged IGH transmission. Something very low tech and doable on a budget. An alternative to a China Girl kit bike. I'd like to see it done.
SB
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Thanks for the positive comments SB! The spoke drive is a new thing and Im still in the early stages of evaluation. My thoughts about it are very positive. Its simple, cheap when using saved parts, and easy for the basic wrench turner to duplicate. Its drive method is sort of unique I think being more involved with the tires tread as a form of cog rather than a friction surface alone. For sure the more knobby the tire the better, and I suspect there is a common tire tread out there that the spokes will coordinate with like gear teeth. That would drive regardless of conditions. Couple this with an IGH and you have a multispeed transmission. This can also be easily used with a coaster hub for a single speed application. The reader please note these hubs must turn backward to the normal rotation.
All that said it will require a drive itself in the from of a belt or chain.
Concerning an electric motor, using this set up is complicating a simple system unless you just like the uniqueness of an electric/transmission drive system. There is a lot to be said for being unique. I strongly favor hub motors. If you go back and look at the pics of my cargo bike hauling a load(and it was a LOAD!), its simply a direct drive 36v system. This hub drive would be more ideal with a 2-3hp 4stroke, frame mounted engine running the hub through a centrifugal clutch with a behind the seat post mount. The option of using a chain drive or the spoke drive could be decided just by adding a sprocket and turning the engine the other direction.
If I were going to build an electric/trans bike, I would use a despoked(save the spokes for the drive!) hub motor that was frame mounted, driving the hub with a chain or belt. The motor could mount quite simply using bolt to the frame flat steel webs requiring no welding. The hub motor is fairly narrow and should fit between the pedal cranks fine. The big hub spinning silently away in the frame would be pretty cool. Heck maybe even better add the cross spokes to the hub and mount it directly over the wheel for one heck of a driver!
I will be happy to assist you in any way I can if you want to build a similar drive.
All that said it will require a drive itself in the from of a belt or chain.
Concerning an electric motor, using this set up is complicating a simple system unless you just like the uniqueness of an electric/transmission drive system. There is a lot to be said for being unique. I strongly favor hub motors. If you go back and look at the pics of my cargo bike hauling a load(and it was a LOAD!), its simply a direct drive 36v system. This hub drive would be more ideal with a 2-3hp 4stroke, frame mounted engine running the hub through a centrifugal clutch with a behind the seat post mount. The option of using a chain drive or the spoke drive could be decided just by adding a sprocket and turning the engine the other direction.
If I were going to build an electric/trans bike, I would use a despoked(save the spokes for the drive!) hub motor that was frame mounted, driving the hub with a chain or belt. The motor could mount quite simply using bolt to the frame flat steel webs requiring no welding. The hub motor is fairly narrow and should fit between the pedal cranks fine. The big hub spinning silently away in the frame would be pretty cool. Heck maybe even better add the cross spokes to the hub and mount it directly over the wheel for one heck of a driver!
I will be happy to assist you in any way I can if you want to build a similar drive.
Thank you for your response which has given me much to think about. I do like that spoke drive hub and look forward to further reports on how it is working out. I wonder if you could share a link to one of your other friction drive builds. It was a rack mount 4 stroke I believe and fairly recent. I can't remember what the build was called, but was wondering if that could be done using the IGH spoke drive somehow. I'd like to look at the pictures again.
SB
SB
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=31318
Found it, but don't believe the two approaches are compatible. If you were going to use a modest 4 stroke (say the low cost 79 or 99 Predator) mounted on the rear rack and wanted to also utilize the 3 speed spoke drive hub, how would you do it?
SB
Found it, but don't believe the two approaches are compatible. If you were going to use a modest 4 stroke (say the low cost 79 or 99 Predator) mounted on the rear rack and wanted to also utilize the 3 speed spoke drive hub, how would you do it?
SB
CB2, I like your 1/4 turn via twisted belt method. That's some real down on the farm engineering!
In many conversations with curtis regarding an inline crank engine, I've considered many options. Today, I'm thinking the lower drive unit, from a small outboard motor with a blown power head, might work well, especially for a friction drive.
...those spokes across the hub, from flange to flange, IMO, is not going to work. The J bends in the spoke will pull straight and you will be left with floppy wire ginsu knives flailing about your tire and possibly sending shrapnel towards the underside of the test pilot!
But it probably won't get that far... soon as the spoke pieces lose tension, you'll begin to lose motivation.
Good luck
rc
In many conversations with curtis regarding an inline crank engine, I've considered many options. Today
, I'm thinking the lower drive unit, from a small outboard motor with a blown power head, might work well, especially for a friction drive....those spokes across the hub, from flange to flange, IMO, is not going to work. The J bends in the spoke will pull straight and you will be left with floppy wire ginsu knives flailing about your tire and possibly sending shrapnel towards the underside of the test pilot!
But it probably won't get that far... soon as the spoke pieces lose tension, you'll begin to lose motivation.
Good luck
rc
If it turns out that they do loosen then try thicker spokes to see how that goes. I use old spokes for all sorts of things from book marks (nothing better) to hangers for painting bike parts. I find that making that J bend requires a fair amount of force. If there were fewer of them it would increase the force on each one, but with 18 to share the driving maybe it won't be a problem. Time will tell.CB2, I like your 1/4 turn via twisted belt method. That's some real down on the farm engineering!
In many conversations with curtis regarding an inline crank engine, I've considered many options. Today
...those spokes across the hub, from flange to flange, IMO, is not going to work. The J bends in the spoke will pull straight and you will be left with floppy wire ginsu knives flailing about your tire and possibly sending shrapnel towards the underside of the test pilot!
But it probably won't get that far... soon as the spoke pieces lose tension, you'll begin to lose motivation.
Good luck
rc
SB
The J bends are still hanging in there with no deformity . Also the spoke flanges look like they are not bending causing the loosening. Im thinking its the flexing of the spokes as they drive. If the nipples are Loctited and do not loosen then the spokes will flex as a normal part of the operation, probably with a longer life span than I have.
I will apply blue Loctite at the first opportunity and see what the out come is from there. Don't think it will take that much to hold the nipples, but just in case I have red also. They will be permanently locked with red but if replacement is necessary its a simple matter just to clip the spokes with a good pair of Dykes and replace them.
I will apply blue Loctite at the first opportunity and see what the out come is from there. Don't think it will take that much to hold the nipples, but just in case I have red also. They will be permanently locked with red but if replacement is necessary its a simple matter just to clip the spokes with a good pair of Dykes and replace them.
You could try building the hub up with tape or rubber under the spokes to keep flexing to a minimum, unless it wouldn't allow them to dig deep enough into the tire to provide optimum traction. Also, a little heat from a propane torch on the nipples will release red Loctite. In any case, you've opened up a whole new world of uses for rear hubs. Something I would never try before, and now I'm thinking of using your method for a drive system. It appears the mechanical advantage of using the hubs for the drive will take the torque off the gears inside, unlike the more popular shift kits. I mean, silverbear immediately saw the potential, so there's got to be value in it. What a great way to maximize low horsepower output.
Thank you for this really informative thread. Worth a look for anyone interested in a centrally rack mounted four stroke friction drive. It does look like this could be combined with the S.A. IGH spoke drive. Wouldn't that be sweet!
SB
You are welcome SB. The advantage to using an IGH is that the fabrication of the jackshaft/roller is eliminated using the hub as an integral unit making the build even easier.
My next idea is to weld or lace somehow expanded metal to a coaster hub as a test, There are two types of this metal raised and flattened. I will use the raised. It should be somewhat similar to the spokes, perhaps neater and drive in similar way. Also should hold promise for wet driving. The advantage of the spokes is as they contact the tire the pressure is loaded into the small area of 1-2 spokes. If you watch the hub roll slowly you can see the spokes greatly deflect the tread getting a good bite.
I am using a common cruiser tire which has a continuous tread and the spokes drive it very well. A knob tread would be optimum.
My next idea is to weld or lace somehow expanded metal to a coaster hub as a test, There are two types of this metal raised and flattened. I will use the raised. It should be somewhat similar to the spokes, perhaps neater and drive in similar way. Also should hold promise for wet driving. The advantage of the spokes is as they contact the tire the pressure is loaded into the small area of 1-2 spokes. If you watch the hub roll slowly you can see the spokes greatly deflect the tread getting a good bite.
I am using a common cruiser tire which has a continuous tread and the spokes drive it very well. A knob tread would be optimum.
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Sure does make more sense then just a plane roller. My first thought on expanded metal is make it in two pieces so easy replacement,maybe a couple bolts through the spoke holes.Through a couple half moon rings welded to the expanded metal.
Very interesting,after all this time maybe you have come up with the best. Thanks CB...............Curt
Very interesting,after all this time maybe you have come up with the best. Thanks CB...............Curt
Curt I have been thinking the expanded metal could be laced with .032 stainless safety wire through the spoke holes. Safety wire is one of my go to things for attachment. Its pretty strong, and even if only every other hole lined up it would still be stout enough to handle the load. The expanded metal ends could have a 90 degree bend to support the metal and be laced also.
Back to the spokes. I removed them since the bike is down waiting on a new smaller pulley and belt. Before removal I tried to tighten the spokes tight enough to straighten the J bends, its just not happening. While they are off will smooth up the jagged cuts from the side cutters and Loctite the nipples.
I checked spoke spacing with the knobs on the tires on the S3X shifter bike and they engage like gear teeth making a very positive drive. The smoothness of the spokes should be fairly easy on the knobs. The face of the tire could actually get more wear. Only usage will tell that. This type drive can be made with any hub from IGHs, coasters, and freewheel hubs, offering several roller sizes. For a single speed hub I think around 2" is ideal and the common coaster hub is this size including the spokes. A free wheel hub will be smaller which is better for smaller engines. There is no real modification involved short of cutting and bending the spokes(which is done on the hub), unless a pulley must be welded to the sprocket for belt drive. So far I see no issues with this idea, it just needs some accumulated miles to be sure.
Back to the spokes. I removed them since the bike is down waiting on a new smaller pulley and belt. Before removal I tried to tighten the spokes tight enough to straighten the J bends, its just not happening. While they are off will smooth up the jagged cuts from the side cutters and Loctite the nipples.
I checked spoke spacing with the knobs on the tires on the S3X shifter bike and they engage like gear teeth making a very positive drive. The smoothness of the spokes should be fairly easy on the knobs. The face of the tire could actually get more wear. Only usage will tell that. This type drive can be made with any hub from IGHs, coasters, and freewheel hubs, offering several roller sizes. For a single speed hub I think around 2" is ideal and the common coaster hub is this size including the spokes. A free wheel hub will be smaller which is better for smaller engines. There is no real modification involved short of cutting and bending the spokes(which is done on the hub), unless a pulley must be welded to the sprocket for belt drive. So far I see no issues with this idea, it just needs some accumulated miles to be sure.
