More Maytag Mayhem

[cannonball2]

OK the spokey dokey drive is basically finalized. I lowered the rpm to the roller by a reduction of 1.75. I had originally designed the drive for a small roller and overdrove the engines out put as I was initially thinking the Maytag would only turn around 2000rpm(turns 2900 now) and I needed more than that at the roller. This did not work with a 2.5" roller.

The reduction now allows full usage of all three gears. First is good for 10mph, second 15mph and third about 23mph. The hub works great shifting fine through the gears, with clutching in between. This thing is now a very cool leisurely ride.

We have been having spring showers and the roads were wet, a perfect time to try out the wet drive capabilities. It did very well, driving nearly a 100%. If you got slow in a gear it would slip a bit until it came back to speed. A normal FD with anything less than a grit roller would not have done nearly as well if at all. The current tires are common cruiser with continuous tread. If this had been a block type tire it would have driven positively no matter the conditions.

Now all it needs is some riding to see if the Loctited spokes stay tensioned. If so its a done deal.

Now for the water cooling madness!

Thanks again SB for the hub!!

 

[cannonball2]

Heres an ideal tire. http://www.ebay.com/itm/26x2-10-DUR...624?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a414907e8

 

[Ludwig II]

Forgive my pessimism, but would there be a risk of the spokes ripping the knobbles off or at least wearing them prematurely?

 

[silverbear]

Fantastic! That's wonderful news. I've been looking over some of your past friction drive builds and gathering together a wish list of ideas. I mentioned on this or another of your threads that I picked up a mountain bike at the dump last fall, a ladies model with 18 speeds and 24" tires. I have my eye on it as a centered rack mount incorporating Deacon's scissors lift for the engine. It will need a jackshaft to align pulleys or sprockets, and will utilize a 99CC predator engine currently running my American Flyer, but to be replaced on that bike by a 147CC Jacobsen 2 stroke. So, the Predator will be free for service on the mountain bike. I think that with the knobby tires, the 3 speed spoke drive and the gutsy engine it should make a great utilitarian trail bike, perfect for riding the many logging roads in my neck of the woods. This is next winter's project so there's lots of time to think about it, make plans and find another S.A. hub at the dump. This should be a pretty much cost free project. I think it might well bump start, too.

Your Maytag just keeps getting better and better!
SB

 

[cannonball2]

Forgive my pessimism, but would there be a risk of the spokes ripping the knobbles off or at least wearing them prematurely?

Cant say for sure at this point but the spokes seem very gentle on the common cruiser tread. I went ahead and ordered the knob type tires so we will soon see. Im betting the knobs will hold up pretty well. A tire with more defined deeper notches is probably the best.

Also something to consider is the larger the hub the wider the spoke spacing. The size of the SA hub seems ideal for the knob type tries engaging the knobs with almost perfect spacing.

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

This is my favourite forum thread

 

[cannonball2]

Thanks IWW! Definitely some crazy goins on here.

Wound up buying these Duro cruiser tires. They are called Beach Bums. I can relate to that living on/near the coast most of my life.
Hope the tread is as well defined/deep as the pics look. Maybe MTB knobbies might be a bit better but I wore out a set on my CG single speed in about 300mi! Guess the compound is softer being an off road tire. Also they were OEMs so maybe just cheap.
The main thing in tread consideration is the length of the knobs and the fact they need to stand independently in rows of sorts so the spokes can drop below the knobs surface to drive the vertical face. In other words they need to be in rows at approximate spoke width. If nothing else these tires will give the bike an aggressive all terrain look.

 

[bowljoman]

just do what the mudders to. razor slice the two so they incline into the base of the three. If the spokes dont fit in between to push the row of three, the slice will enable it.

 

[cannonball2]

Cutting a tread pattern for traction and cutting for one for spoke engagement would be greatly different. Where as lateral grooves say could be added every couple of inches maybe to improve traction, the tread would have to be grooved/cut every 1/2 inch for the spokes. A daunting job for a tire with a circumference of 80+ inches!

Hopefully the tread on this tire will engage well with the spokes. If not cutting may be the only option! Should have the tire today.

 

[cannonball2]

Ok, got the stud tire mounted and a couple of miles of riding. Its a posidrive for sure. I can turn the back wheel and it will turn the motor over. Was never able to do that before. It would pedal start except for the fact the hub freewheels in the start direction. This will definitely drive in the rain. Heck night even go in mud as the spokes would probably clear out and fling away the dirt. The stud spacing isn't ideal as it engages the first spoke in the slot, second spoke just tips the end of the next stud and the third spoke catches the next incoming slot. Doesn't matter as the first spoke is just leaving the slot as the third spoke begins to engage, The second spoke goes along for the ride. It might be possible to run every other spoke with this particular stud spacing. The tire I showed a few pages back in the thread with the smaller tread engages perfectly, but didn't look the part on this bike. Amazingly the ride is smooth and not at all notchy.

So my conclusion is: It works! That said remember I running between 1 and 2 HP. I have no clue how this will work with say 5hp. Could be a non issue. Spokes are plenty strong in the short span across the hub. Hub also seems strong. In the short ride the tire shows no abuse. This is the slowest MB I have ever had just over 20 tops. Its a very interesting ride that starts many conversations and I enjoy riding it. However by its nature its not going to accrue a bunch of miles in the short term. So I will have no soon forthcoming answers about the concepts long range durability. My gut says no issues.
We need a build with something like a 79cc Predator/auto clutch to really check this out........SB?

Heres a few pics of the drive. Its hard to see but the spokes are below the tread knobs driving them in the slots. There also a couple of pics of the whole sordid affair! Water cooling next!

 

[Velodrome]

HOLY COW PIES! That's unfreshing believable !

 

[Ludwig II]

Never mind all that, when are you going to be a video star?

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

Cannonball my dear sir, you win first prize

 

[silverbear]

I had a feeling the tread would be fine between the spokes flexing a bit and the tire, too. Great to hear the ride is smooth. What an interesting build this is and it keeps getting mo betta all the time.

Yes, I do want to try a S.A. 3 speed as a spoke/friction drive. Below are pictures of the bike I'd like to use. I found it at the dump, pumped up the tires, raised the seat and handlebars and everything works fine. Being a ladies model it is somewhat a step through and having 24" wheels helps mounting the bike without swinging the leg over. I'd like to mount the engine behind the seat and have it centered for reasons of balance. As mentioned a couple of posts back I have a 99 predator engine which is in use right now on my daily rider, a 50 Panther which is going to get an upgrade in power to a 147cc Jacobsen 2 stroke later on. I could pick up a 79cc predator, but should be patient and frugal and use the 99 I already have. It's a nice engine and has been very reliable, but with the canoe sidecar and dog as passenger the Panther needs more oomph.

Not quite sure how to set it up. I had the idea I could use Deacon's scissors jack lift, have the 3 speed hub mounted behind the engine and engage the hub to the tire with the scissors lift. I would need a jackshaft to be able to align the sprockets or pulleys and am not clear on where that would go.

As you can see in the photos I have a friction drive unit from an old friction drive moped which used a McCullough chainsaw engine as a side mount. I've removed most of that and will use the clamp portion which fits under the rear brake and acts like a hinge. I would use two angle iron rails to bolt to the hinged clamp and the engine would bolt onto the rails. The rails would extend enough to carry the friction drive hub to the rear of the engine. The scissors jack would engage/ disengage the hub with the tire as it is raised or lowered. That's what I'm picturing anyway, but I'm open to whatever will work well. I do have a centrifugal clutch from a snow blower which Curtis Fox converted from sprocket to pulley drive and could use that if a centrifugal clutch would be best.

I also have a couple of S.A. 3 speed hubs which are of the coaster brake type, but I gather that wouldn't work for our purposes... or would it?

This would be a kind of utilitarian trail bike which would be perfect for the logging roads in the area. Not pretty, but who cares? Not all builds have to be cool looking especially if they ride well, and I think this would.

Don't mean to high jack your thread, but it is related and when the time comes I will do my own build thread. Anyone's suggestions will be welcome since this is something new to me. Thanks for leading the way, CB2.
SB

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

That bike was a lucky find Silverbear. As always I will be watching with interest

 

[silverbear]

That bike was a lucky find Silverbear. As always I will be watching with interest

Yes, it was a lucky find. I am sometimes amazed and disheartened by what careless people throw away. What kept this bike from being ridden was a lack of air in the tires. That's it. Even the paint is nice. The gears shift easily, front suspension is good, frame is straight. I don't get it. Why not set it standing by the road or street with a cardboard sign saying "FREE" and some grateful person would have a nice and possibly much needed bike to ride? Ah well, I was the lucky recipient this time, saving it from the crusher. I think it will make a good motored trail bike.
SB

 

[cannonball2]

Thanks for the kind comments yall! Never got a trophy before!!

After thinking about this a bit I concluded this is a strange concept in that its not really a FD but a gear drive. So that makes it vary from different combinations of tire size unlike a FD which stays the same no matter the tire size with a given roller size. Or is it a combo driving by friction between the studs? Im theorizing that if SB uses a 24" that it will be geared down more than a 26". Guess the only way to know is to do it. That is easily adjusted with pulley sizes. Also concluded that removing spokes will probably make the drive notchy so will leave them alone.

The 99cc Predy will be ideal SB some how I thought you had the 79. I would consider an auto clutch as it will simplify things. You can just lock the drive in position. The bike will roll around fine and in the event of a failure just raise the unit and pedal home. A coaster brake hub should work fine. Ditch the brake arm and or remove the brake if the hub will work with out it.

If you can squeeze the Predy into an in frame build(doesn't look feasible with the MTB), you can mount it on angle iron rails and extend them past the seat post to mount a swinging hub mount negating the need for a jackshaft and keep the bike more balanced. This is the method I used on the Schwinn Point Beach remake. It can be a bolt together affair. If you are doing trails with hills the rear engine might be wheelie prone with the large engine up hills.

My neighbor gave me two at one time very nice MTBs but were in sad shape do to sitting out. I got one ok project bike out of the two. Am going to build a very light weight trail bike that will be a shifter. Its going to use the dreaded CAG engine but the stock version not the fragile temperamental tuned version. Will be an inframe.

SB let me know if you would like me to build you a hub mount once you firm up the lay out, be glad to.

L2 will work on a vid. Want to do one of the 3speed S3X bike too.

 

[curtisfox]

SB that looks just like the "Bike Machine Motor" that i have with a Mitsubishi on it,that i have on my friction drive............Curt

 

[Mr.B.]

Wow, what a great machine!

-Kirk

 

[silverbear]

CB2,
Thank you for your very kind offer to build the hub mount, but at this point I'm still thinking that I want to do the mountain bike. No, I don't want to be doing wheelies, lying on my back and looking at stars, but I don't foresee climbing steep hills; just slowly negotiating rough logging roads, dodging potholes and jagged rocks. Most of the time I would probably have it on paved road and not be trying to break any speed records.

I thought about using a different four stroke, but the Predator engines are light compared to an old Brigs or Tecumseh, and am re-considering the 79cc which is on sale for $99.00 and can have it shipped for $7.00, less than it would cost to drive to Duluth to pick it up directly (200 mile round trip). That way I could tinker with the build sooner rather than later.

Good to hear that the coaster brake version of the S.A. 3 speed would work. As I thought about it in this spoke drive application it seemed to me that it should work. So the expense would be in the new engine (if I go that route) and a couple of pulleys. I have a couple 5/8" shafts, pillow block bearings and lock collars, so I think the jackshaft would be free. It is a question of how to set things up. If you were using my mtb and wanted the engine centered and not offset, how would you do it? Scissor lift "clutch" or centrifugal clutch or what?

Not doing a jackshaft would save some work, but using this bike and not having to fool with different wheels or brakes saves work and expense. It does have nice brakes and a suspension fork.

I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks.
SB
Here I go again, diverting your thread. Sorry about that. You are kind, sir.
SB