Why buy an electric bicycle?

[LI-ghtcycle]

Excellent informative post LI-ghtcycle while not initially a fan of friction drives of any type the Kepler eboost definitely impressed me, for a lightweight power assist bicycle it would be hard to beat in the weight stakes, mounitng weight on and above the rear wheel is a big no no it severly effects a bicycles handling, majority of friction drive setups were like this, while Kepler's eboost is rear mounted it is forward of the wheel, lightweight and obviously has little to no impact on the bikes handling, outside of course the assist it gives the rider in the power department.

I wish you well in your coast to coast adventure will subscribe to your theread on ES when it appears, as i am sure you will keep some for of log?

KiM

Thanks AJ!

Yes, I will have some form of log/post on ES I suppose, as I have no idea how "blogs" work, I hope to have some form of ultra mobile PC or Kindle since it has a rudimentary web browser and the 3G is free with no monthly fee (suits my limited budget quite well!) even if it is slow.

Here's a link to my latest idea for taking the basics of the Kepler Drive motor & voltage set-up to a single stage chain drive with #25 chain, I'd love to get your opinion on what I have come up with!

Endless-sphere.com • View topic - Jack Shaft RH Drive or LH Drive Single Stage?

It would appear that my next planned drive will be 99% off the shelf, with only some form of chain idler and mounting for the motor (hoping to do it in the upper rear of the front tri-angle on a Tidal Force frame attaching to the seat tube) and a scooter 10MM shaft to replace the Turnigy 63-74 200Kv motor's shaft, so that a 11T sprocket will just attach as normal with a roll pin.

Since I will be using low voltage (4S) I will only be spinning the motor at 2960 RPM, so it should take just a 7 to 1 reduction to get my desired speed!

I'm going to post a build thread here on motorizedbikes too to get ideas here too!

I love these Icons!

 

[biknut]

Thank you guys for the very good information. I'm trying to learn as much as I can right now about battery's. If you can point me to some battery's I can look at maybe on eBay or where ever.

It looks like as far as a Ebike is concerned, power and speed isn't the problem. The problem is power consumption and motor efficiency.

Is a 3 ph dc motor considered high tech?

 

[KiM]

Battery technology section of the Endless Sphere forum would be a good place to start your 'research' Contains information about all battery chemistries including motorbicyling members beloved lead acid batteries...if you go back enough pages.

KiM

 

[biknut]

Battery technology section of the Endless Sphere forum would be a good place to start your 'research' Contains information about all battery chemistries including motorbicyling members beloved lead acid batteries...if you go back enough pages.

KiM

Thanks Kim. I googled it and started looking around.

I'm interested in trying to adapt this motor technology to motor bicycles. Very few people outside the A/C industry know about this technology. The difference between a vari speed motor and a fixed speed motor is amazing. A fixed speed motor draws about 15 amps, but a vari speed motor only draws less than 3 amps at full speed.

GE ECM Electronically Commutated Motor Variable Speed Blower Motors-HVAC Air Conditioning & Heating Systems

I've acquired a motor and motor module for dissection. The module seems to be where the hidden technology is located. A new motor and module new, cost about $750 wholesale. Normally I pay $75 for the same thing in a fixed 4 speed. I got one out of a furnace that was about to be junked. I have a good friend that's retired from Texas Instruments that's trying to figure it out. Part of the problem is it's potted and there appears to be at least 3 big microprocessors in it. Right now we think it converts 115v single ph into 3 ph dc to power the motor. The motor never seems to get hot unlike all other motors.

I think with this technology a motor bicycle really could go 30 mph for over a 100 miles.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Thanks Kim. I googled it and started looking around.

I'm interested in trying to adapt this motor technology to motor bicycles. Very few people outside the A/C industry know about this technology. The difference between a vari speed motor and a fixed speed motor is amazing. A fixed speed motor draws about 15 amps, but a vari speed motor only draws less than 3 amps at full speed.

GE ECM Electronically Commutated Motor Variable Speed Blower Motors-HVAC Air Conditioning & Heating Systems

I've acquired a motor and motor module for dissection. The module seems to be where the hidden technology is located. A new motor and module new, cost about $750 wholesale. Normally I pay $75 for the same thing in a fixed 4 speed. I got one out of a furnace that was about to be junked. I have a good friend that's retired from Texas Instruments that's trying to figure it out. Part of the problem is it's potted and there appears to be at least 3 big microprocessors in it. Right now we think it converts 115v single ph into 3 ph dc to power the motor. The motor never seems to get hot unlike all other motors.

I think with this technology a motor bicycle really could go 30 mph for over a 100 miles.

Very Interesting!! Thanks for sharing this, I am curious, how many watts is this motor typically running on? How heavy is it? I'm getting the impression it might be on the heavy side compared to the RC motors that mostly weight 1 -2 lbs or less.

As far as batteries, I would use these:

HobbyKing Online R/C Hobby Store : Turnigy nano-tech 6000mah 4S 25~50C Lipo Pack

Most would at least series these packs to get 8s (30V) and still more say that most motors want to run 12S (45V) for maximum power & efficiency, however, that also means slowing down a 6,000 - 9,000 RPM motor to a usable speed, requiring much greater expense in both battery and drive system (this is what the really fast guys are doing).

At the opposite end of the spectrum, some of us are using between 4S - 6S (15 - 22.5V) on friction or single stage reduction drives, and we might be only running in the 70 -85% efficiency range, however, when you compare this to hub motors, you are getting the same performance for about 1/3 - 1/2 the battery needed, and thus the weight is drastically reduced.

You are correct, the Achilles Heel of all electrics, is battery storage capacity. We have pretty good stuff now, but it still lacks the energy density of gasoline, and that is the main reason our economy runs on oil. However, the rate of improvement in electric energy storage is going an amazingly fast rate, and there is much talk of ultra capacitors in the future possibly being the new "battery" because how quickly they charge and discharge.

I have always wanted to have a grid system similar to Tesla's Idea of DC towers transmitting electricity through the air, but in a different form, if say, you could do this everywhere you have power lines, then your vehicle could have a small generator motor to get you between the powered routes.

Until then, I really like the performance of the latest Turnigy Nanotech batteries.

 

[KiM]

Speaking of batteries i just ordered eight 22v 5000mah 20-30C rate
Turnigys today for my new bike, Australia has a Hobby City warehouse now (as does USofA) delivered it cost me $us483 for 50v 20ah setup
very happy chappy, buying from HK i can only have 4 per order due to the lithium polymer shipping by air business, 80 bucks per order for delivery :-| cost me 40 bucks for delivery of 8 packs from OZ store big saving for me Would of liked to of gone with nano techs but i can't justify the price, even 20ah worth of lipo is more than i need seeing my longest rides are little over 20km daily rides to local shops less than a kilometer, rest of my riding is thrashing my bike full throttle around the block, gotta love lecky power for this, so quiet doesn't disturb anyone ;-)

KiM

 

[bairdco]

i've sold gas bikes in the $2000 range. i've been keeping an eye on you guys'es builds. silent electrics with 40mph speeds and can run for 100+ miles? i'm definitely intersted.

but...

i love the smell of gas, and i can easily rebuild a motor, but have trouble changing lightbulbs.

but i'm smart, and i can learn...

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

i've sold gas bikes in the $2000 range. i've been keeping an eye on you guys'es builds. silent electrics with 40mph speeds and can run for 100+ miles? i'm definitely intersted.

but...

i love the smell of gas, and i can easily rebuild a motor, but have trouble changing lightbulbs.

but i'm smart, and i can learn...

Perhaps you'd entertain a trade of sorts? I'm going to be putting together what I believe will be a pretty modular 1 or 2 stage drive set-up with #25 chain that could be built to the higher-end power spectrum (40MPH+) and in the near future (maybe by the fall) I would be interested what you might have by the way of a simple no frills 4-stroke kit that would be in about the same range of power? I'd be mostly just interested in a kit to add to my Trek 920 frame, (very large Cro-Mo frame with ample space for most anything) but I also like to pedal, so I'm thinking anything like some of the HF motors that are really wide and require extra wide pedals would be too much of a compromise.

I'm going to have my basic 1 stage drive set-up together in the next month or so, possibly quicker if I sell some stuff in the mean-time.

 

[biknut]

Very Interesting!! Thanks for sharing this, I am curious, how many watts is this motor typically running on? How heavy is it? I'm getting the impression it might be on the heavy side compared to the RC motors that mostly weight 1 -2 lbs or less.

.

These motors are pretty heavy, but it's not the motor that we're concerned with. It's the motor module, or what MBers call a controller. It's unlike anything on the market right now. Nobody outside of GE knows how it works.

As far as this motors weight, probably about 20 lb which is about the same as any other 1/2 hp blower motor. The motor module is light weight, less than 1 lb.

A typical ordinary 1/2 hp 115v blower motor runs about 1380w, but these variable speed motors with motor modules attached are the same 1/2 hp, and do the same amount of work, but only draw about 265w as far as we can tell. That's based on the current we're reading on the 115v line into the motor module.

At this time all we know is the line power to the motor module is 115v ac. We have no idea what voltage is coming out of the module and going to the motor. We think its 3 ph dc of unknown voltage at this time. The module says 8 amps on the back of it.

We're not going to be able to do much else for about 2 months but after that we're planning to devote a lot more time to figuring this thing out.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

Very kewl! I'll be eager to hear more once you get a chance to test one out!

 

[MountainMage]

Reasons why my Wind powered bicycle is more energy efficient and better than your electric and gas powered guzzlers:

1. 0$ cost to fuel or charge

2. Looks cooler than your average "cruiser"

3. Great visibility to other vehicles

4. top speeds of 150 mph+

5. unlimited range

6. can't explode

7. not illegal

8. and finally it's a chick MAGNET

 

[KiM]

These motors are pretty heavy, but it's not the motor that we're concerned with. It's the motor module, or what MBers call a controller. It's unlike anything on the market right now. Nobody outside of GE knows how it works.

As far as this motors weight, probably about 20 lb which is about the same as any other 1/2 hp blower motor. The motor module is light weight, less than 1 lb.

A typical ordinary 1/2 hp 115v blower motor runs about 1380w, but these variable speed motors with motor modules attached are the same 1/2 hp, and do the same amount of work, but only draw about 265w as far as we can tell. That's based on the current we're reading on the 115v line into the motor module.

At this time all we know is the line power to the motor module is 115v ac. We have no idea what voltage is coming out of the module and going to the motor. We think its 3 ph dc of unknown voltage at this time. The module says 8 amps on the back of it.

We're not going to be able to do much else for about 2 months but after that we're planning to devote a lot more time to figuring this thing out.

Interesting but i dont see any advantages in it over whats currently available, in fact, seems to be a backward step far too heavy for the low power output, as LI-ghtcycle stated the rc motors are 1-2lbs and put out 10 times th e power, use one myself they are ridiculously powerful for their size...

KiM

EDiT: Bikenut...keep an eye on the Tuson Death Race thats coming up, there will be a couple of fellas attending
that use the "rc motors" super light setups with in excess of 10hp peaks if they can stay on the track
and dont blow them up they will be lapping the fastest gasser bikes.

 

[biknut]

Interesting but i dont see any advantages in it over whats currently available, in fact, seems to be a backward step far too heavy for the low power output, as LI-ghtcycle stated the rc motors are 1-2lbs and put out 10 times th e power, use one myself they are ridiculously powerful for their size...

KiM

EDiT: Bikenut...keep an eye on the Tuson Death Race thats coming up, there will be a couple of fellas attending
that use the "rc motors" super light setups with in excess of 10hp peaks if they can stay on the track
and dont blow them up they will be lapping the fastest gasser bikes.

You're totally not understanding. It's the controller technology we want. We'll be able to apply it it any motor if we can understand it.

Thanks for the heads up. I need to learn about what kinds of motors are good for our purposes.

 

[KiM]

My bad apologies...good luck with sorting the controller out then
if its small as a pack of smokes and light as able to witsand 300amp peaks and run a Turnigy 80-130 HXT outrunner ill be keen to test one haha

Here's a lil taste of the power of RC motors, ES member Rodgah took his twin Astro 3220 powered Kona Stinky for a rap yesterday and filmed it, wheel pops up at anywhere upto 80km/hr kmhr if he blips the throttle LoL Ridiculous amount of power reported 15 000 watt peaks (~20hp) (castle Controller HV160's have data longing function, plug into pc download info post ride) hes still fine tuning it, problem we all have is with the control-ability, very small throttle movements equates to instant insane levels of power... anywayz checkz this out-->

Charging the lipo...

Has enough lipo to make 40-50km rides at legal cruising speed on flat terrain, but this wasn't built for 'cruising' this is fun machine built for thrashing the crap out of LoL

Yout Tube Video of Rodgahs lap around the block

Rodgahs gear limited the bike to modest but sensible 80km/hr geared up it has the power to punch will into the100km/hr territory which IMO is dangerous on bike tires/rims even high end stuff like is being used...

Why buy an electric bike? you asked, simple answer, coz they is freakin' fun BikNut LoL...

KiM

EDiT: forgot link to Rodgahs thread for those interested in seeing how he has tackled the twin astro install

 

[biknut]

Thanks Kim. You give me a lot of good information to absorb.

 

[Thud]

Hey guy's,
I just re-read through this trhread & found a few things I missed & will comment on.

The variable speed motor system in the AC unit is another variation of our 3 phase brushless permanet. magnet motors. (i don't know if they are perm mag in the AC application). & really it is the EXACT technology we are exploiting currently in the E-bike scean.

There is no "new" or secret technoligy when it comes to the physics of spinning a motor via ellectricity. The Ciscro boys have already shown whats possible with their high 90's percent efficent wheel motors in the solar racers.
(some calcs are 98%).
The debate in the E-world will be the weather Sinosodial wave form controllers will be worth the added complexity to produce them...controllers already exist to operate universal motors with feild weakening for efficancy controll & minimise power consumption. (water pumps & blower motors).

Kim has linked to the best examples of the power potentials & there are plenty of examples of guys traveling great distance with electric Bikes. one of my favorites it this Russin gentlmans recumbent Bike...More a motorcycle than bicycle...but that is what is being describe mostly around the motored bike world anyway.....
YouTube - Molniya open new 2011 season
have fun.

 

[BarelyAWake]

Reasons why my Wind powered bicycle is more energy efficient and better than your electric and gas powered guzzlers:

1. 0$ cost to fuel or charge

2. Looks cooler than your average "cruiser"

3. Great visibility to other vehicles

4. top speeds of 150 mph+

5. unlimited range

6. can't explode

7. not illegal

8. and finally it's a chick MAGNET

Much as I dearly love both sailing and MBs, I'm afraid I hafta point out that wind is simply the most "unreliable" motive force ever utilized, as well as a few... incongruities in your statements;

1. True, but it's also not technically "motorized"
2. Looking "cool" is purely subjective lol
3. True, but suffers from extremely poor road visibility, to say you've a variable "blind spot" would be... an understatement.
4. Impossible* - unless winds are far in excess of even hurricane-force (Beaufort 12, 73 mph+)... in which case I don't think you'd wanna be ridin' heh
5. Sort of... unless you count becalmed as "out of fuel".
6. Now that I can't debate, save for pointing out MB don't have a history of spontaneously exploding lol
7. True, but no doubt simply an oversight due to their rarity (see #3).
8. Can't argue that 'un - the wimminz seem ta love the sails

*Even though a sailing craft can in fact exceed wind speed while running close hauled (depending on type of craft & rigging) it's needful to tack as close into the wind as it can without entering in irons (luffing the sails) & all of this is made difficult to impossible due to the lack of a mainsail and needing to follow the road instead of tacking to take advantage of the available winds. Even the current landyacht world speed record is "only" 126.2mph (March 2009) http://www.nalsa.org/ - and that's with specialized, dedicated racing craft in wide open spaces like the salt flats & frozen over lakes, where they can freely tack in any direction they please.


Still, all in all it's a beautiful concept - particularly if you live in a location with wide open flat lands, ruler straight roadways with large shoulders and no overhanging tree branches. You should by all means create your own thread here: Motorized Tricycles and Recumbents - Motorized Bicycle: Engine Kit Forum - I'm lookin' forward to it

 

[AbleSmith]

Electric bike is an sustainable mode of transprotation which saves lots of gasoline and provides healthier lifestyle, even we dont have to spend large amount of money as compared to other bikes. We dont need license and insurance.
-----------------------------------------
Yamaha Motorcycles | BMW Motorcycles

 

[fm2200]

AbleSmith the simple reason to own is what you just stated. The don't needs make you feel totally independent. Here in new york the police don't know if gas bikes are legal or not. The electric bike is super slick no one will suspect a thing. Electric is one of the best things for the guy who can not obtain a license.

 

[NeilP]

Where I am ..it is legal reasons...fast electric or petrol powered....both illegal ...more chance of getting away without getting stopped on an electric bike...can use on cycle paths etc.

Could make the petrol one road legal...but then it needs tax, insurance helmet etc..so loses the fun factor