Villiers beach cruiser

[fasteddy]

Watches for sale : Villiers engine Gallery > Villiers engine Gallery at Low Prices

Harry,
This might help. This is a British website that I look at a lot. I have absolutely no idea how watches and Villier motors met but if you go to page 6 and on the top line the engine that your clutch came out of is the second one in on the right.
Odd looking bugger isn't it but it is an early moped motor. On the first photo you can see the end of the clutch shaft on the right sticking out of the aluminium case..
I think it's the last photo, the other end of the shaft is behind the brass plate.

It would work as a jackshaft. You would have to have the two spockets like mine has. Basicaly it is a jackshaft but hooked to gears. Crankshaft sprocket to inner sprocket on clutch shaft. This drives the outer sprocket which goes to the rear wheel. The clutch just allows the outer sprocket to turn the rear wheel by stopping the outer sprocket from turning freely which it does when not clamped by the clutch. A free wheel if you will.

You would have to have a bearing on the sprocket end and one on the other end to support the shaft and something to hold it in place so it couldn't move back and forth. The pin would move in the shaft to operate the clutch and you would have to make a lever to push on the pin when you pull the clutch handle.
The machinist you went to should be able to help you plan it and yes it would have a cool factor of 100 as an early jackshaft in my books.

Steve.

 

[harry76]

Thanks that picture helped a lot. I thought the second smaller sprocket on the clutch (secondary drive) would be located right beside the existing larger 42 tooth sprocket to keep the drive on the same side as the engine, i now see it swaps the drive to the opposite side.

And because the sprockets are on opposite ends of the clutch shaft i cant see why i cant use 2 pillow bearings holding the shaft in the center, the same as how ive mounted my jackshaft would work i think, and i wouldnt even need a machinist, providing there is sufficient room on the clutch shaft........ Does this sound right??????

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

The difference between your clutch/tranmission and mine is mine was made to stand separate from the engine while yours was all one unit. The engine chain comes from the engine sprocket to the inner sprocket. This is where the kick starter hooks in to start the engine.

The final drive sprocket is where the clutch is so you can disengage the engine when you stop and keep it running or when you need to start the engine. A rod simply pushes the clutch apart and a very strong spring pushes it back together.

Steve.

From: Measure Twice

Harry, what I was saying about clutches was in general like on automobile. But the thing about a regular clutch as opposed to a centrifugal clutch is you have a foot pedal or a hand lever as on a motorcycle. This means something either a cable or hydraulic to somehow compress the spring. I could not see anything already part of that nice price find for what you got.

There needs to be something that acts like the fork I mention of that pushes on the fingers of a pressure plate (clutches that utilize that system). So I thought maybe inside like the pin on Sturmy Archer Hub and where Fast Eddy mentions of a rod, same idea I'm thinking.

The pictures Fast Eddy had found looked like a worm gear that went through the center of all the assembly and compresses the spring taking tension off the sandwich of the two parts with the shoes on them.

Then on the pictures of what you showed there are two parts with shoes and one has a large sprocket attached to it. I also noticed the four tabs on one of the two parts with the shoes, but not the sprocket. The other part with the shoes and also has the sprocket has slots that match up with the tabs of the other. Those two parts with shoes spin together then and also grabs the part put in between them. The part in between them then connect to the shaft that looks like has keyway slot in it.

So as you say the sprocket part with shoes may be the input and the shaft the output, where you may put a pulley or an sprocket of the size you need for gear ratio you would like.

Here is a thought, since what looks like the starter motor on a car, is just the part with the spring that allows a gear to push forward and have the starter engage the flywheel teeth. Not that this is exactly the same, but I’m having a hunch that the spring in the position that it is just enough to allow the clutch to slip. Then a fork like thing goes over the shaft and moves sideways compressing the spring giving much more tension and the shoes grab and the shaft with the keyway turns.
Even though I thought of this, I then think it would act the opposite of pulling in on a clutch lever which disengages not engages, so now I’m against that thought.

I don’t see a gap that a fork like thing wound compress the spring away from the shoes disengaging the clutch, but maybe it is just when assembled, there is this slightly compressing the spring to allow the fork to be inserted. Then in operation it would slide and compress the spring away from the shoe parts and disengages the clutch.

MT


PS just noticed additional info Fast Eddy has posted

villiers engine | eBay

in the photo I don't see the pin, a cable to push a pin in, but if the is a way Harry you can see that the center of the shaft has a way for a pin and it does as needed, make one.

Ohhh, just forgot and had not checked where a lot of old engines may have this info.

Antique Hit and Miss Gas Engines - Harry's Old Engine - Steam Engines Also Known as Hit a Mis Funny the guy running the sites name is Harry also

Other links for info are there also.

Say maybe there a Villers powered watches....

 

[harry76]

Measuretwice, as i mentioned in my initial post im fully aware i dont have the hardware to activate the clutch. But when i get the clutch and figure it out im sure i can make something to activate it. And if i put some thought into it and make it very "mechanical" in appearance i think it could be a cool add on, and after riding my Villiers im aware of the advantage of a bar mounted clutch lever.

 

[harry76]

Im thinking the clutch shaft may not quite be long enough to allow for pillow bearings, if this is the case i wonder if i could cut the shaft and lengthen it without weakening it? Obviously doing a good chamfer for good weld penetration on the shaft.

 

[fasteddy]

Yes the two sprockets are side by side like my transmission. sprocket to the rear drive has the clutch. I think that the bike your set up came off has bearings on each end of the shaft. It would be set up like your two pulleys on your jackshaft.

It is a Villiers Junior DeLuxe engine. If you can find an engine diagram that is blown up that will explain it much better than I can.

Steve.

 

[harry76]

Wpouldnt the sprockets be on opposing ends of the shaft, im thinking, and i could be wrong, that the 42 tooth sprocket (primary chain) is on one end and the the smaller sprocket (that i dont have) is located on the other end of the shaft (where the nut is) and this why in the picture you supplied that the sprocket for the secondary drive chain is located on the flywheel side, so it would end up on the opposite side of the jackshaft (where my sprocket for my kickstart is on my current jackshaft).

Sure hope im making sense because this is very hard to describe

 

[fasteddy]

The wheels just came off the train. Did a quick search for information about the motor and it has to run in an oil bath. Better known as a wet clutch.
That is the reason that they had it enclosed on the engine. Don't know of anyway around it.

Steve.

 

[harry76]

Bummer if thats the case. What would happen if i ran it dry?

Found this exploded view. I was totally wrong. If im reading this digram correctly the engine sprocket is located behind (and on the same side as) the flywheel. I still could work it out into a jackshaft but not if it needs oil..... oh well you win some you lose some

Redirect Notice

 

[fasteddy]

Same set up as mine. You can see the clutch rod in the middle.
I'd try a motorcycle shop and ask if they think it could be recorked with dry clutch corks. It's the material not the clutch that rules whether it's wet or dry. The bearing may have to run in oil as well to keep from seizing.

You may find a grey beard in the shop that remembers these things from years ago or a young chap who is interested in them who will have the answer.

Steve.

 

[harry76]

Thanks for the help Fasteddy, if someone else doesnt offer advice ill do as you say and take it to a vintage bike shop and see what they can do.

And im wondering if the bearing does need oil could i take it to a bearing supplier and they could replace with one that didnt.

Otherwise i may just keep an eye out for transmissions on EBay like yours. It sure is a beauty...... ill most likely build at least (in time) 2 more Villiers bikes and id like a different setup to my current one, not that theres anything wrong with it, id just like totally different bikes.

 

[silverbear]

Thanks for the help Fasteddy, if someone else doesnt offer advice ill do as you say and take it to a vintage bike shop and see what they can do.

And im wondering if the bearing does need oil could i take it to a bearing supplier and they could replace with one that didnt.

Otherwise i may just keep an eye out for transmissions on EBay like yours. It sure is a beauty...... ill most likely build at least (in time) 2 more Villiers bikes and id like a different setup to my current one, not that theres anything wrong with it, id just like totally different bikes.

Interesting portion of your thread, Harry. I spent some time last summer staring at that 3 speed transmission of Steve's. Quite the chunk of well made machinery.

And I understand about wanting your builds to be different. As I was reading your post I reflected on how very different my ongoing builds are. You're familiar with the Indian Hiawatha with the vintage Sachs 2 stroke. Another is a 1934 Elgin with a China girl engine which will have an SBP type of jack shaft/ transmission going to a three speed rear hub. The third is a glorified moped, an AMF Roadmaster with a 2 speed Tomos engine. And the last is a 50 Panther whose Qmatic transmission will mate up with a 99cc Predator engine this summer. They are quite different from each other, each with its own challenges to overcome. And I like them all. I can see using the same engine twice or the same frame, but the builds need to be different enough to keep you challenged and thinking. Building is fun. Building the same thing over and over again would be work.
SB

 

[fasteddy]

I would think that given the new and better bearings we have today you could get away without them running in oil.

There are Albion transmissions that they used on motorbikes and cycles over the years. Not inexpensive when they show up but they don't make them any more either. I'd ask a motorcycle shop about any suggestions they might have about transmissions that have a clutch and main shaft that you can adapt as a jack shaft. They are inside motorcycles all day so they should have an idea of what's what.

Steve.

 

[harry76]

Today i just got back from picking up the BSA engine i bought off EBay. Now i know why no-one bid on it and i got it cheap. It was out in the middle of nowhere with pickup only. If i can get this engine going ill be very happy. If not im sure i can sell it again or clean it up and display it.

The motor has compression but is free and not seized or anything. Everything seems there but what would i know.... LOL..... it will be interesting as im not that mechanically minded but its a good way to learn.

The motor must need a tranny but ive got my eye on a Albion box or if not i could just make a hand clutch like my villiers...... That is if i stick with my plan of making a boardtrack bike because this thing is heavy, damn HEAVY. My scales tripped out with me holding the engine and it was too tricky to balance it.

Weird looking carby

 

[harry76]

A size comparison to the little Villiers

This has got me guessing, the inner sprocket would be for the primary im guessing but what is the pulley on the outside for. It spins freely, perhaps broken, i have no idea yet, as i said i only just got the engine. Tommorrow i will have a better look

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

I find it hard for me to see your mention of yourself "as I’m not that mechanically minded but it’s a good way to learn."

Heck what have I seen about 3 really quite unique builds or more that took quite a lot of attention to detail and solving problems!

I think you’re really being modest, or if it is just some particulars on motors... but the fabrication you have done even if you also do similar for profession, your design builds to work with what you can find and make it work with parts that never existed before is amazing.

Now the pics... that carb with the valve with t-handle is unique. How old is this engine... hp... and I saw some looking like two semi-rigid metal tubes going by the base of the engine..wondering what it all has?

I don't know if you have library on line books available, or a large branch with printed stuff, but that is where I went for some manuals rather than buy from company or shops. If you do have to get details not found here or other places and are buying manuals either by reprint or collector original, I remember seeing some manuals for motors right on that Ebay UK one that was mentioned to look at the pics of the Villers Clutch. The one that strangely was listed with the watches it was ther for a while on one of those pages.

While I was trying to also help with how that clutch worked, I stumbled upon this web site that has out of print book or other contributed that is there for down load about two stroke engines. It is a site for antique snow mobiles, but also link to other and stuff that relates. There is stuff in there about port overlap, expansion chambers … on an on way over my head to understand at first glance but I keep looking on occasion and maybe try some of this stuff.
Beside the SledU (Sled University) there is also Engine_Manuals tab for a lot of 70’s era Snowmobiles there.
http://www.vintagesnow.com/SledU.html

Have fun figuring what you have and how to make something outstanding as always!

PS
I’m hoping I’m getting over my cold coming up on one week, but I have ideas to make a two jackshaft rig on my motor bike that is modular and can be removed or just use only 1 jack shaft for various ratios.

I am getting all the parts to have as much as 47:1 and at 2200 rpm clutch fully engaged at about 3.7 mph and 3500 rpm 5.7 mph that will be for parade stuff.

MT

 

[harry76]

Thanks for the compliments Measuretwice. Yeah i was referring more to the inner workings of a motor, ive rebuilt my own 2 stroke engines when i used to ride motocross but thats fairly straight forward. But should this engine not run or is missing something i dont know enough about motors, but with the help of this site and a lot of investigating im fairly confident ill work it out.

Ive got a lot of learning ahead of me but thats half the fun. When i saw this engine i pictured it in a bike and couldnt pass it up. I like how the bottom of the engine is small and roundish and i think it would look awesome in a drop loop and seperate tranny and boardtrack styling in a custom built frame. Should it work It will probably be a long project but im fine with that.

I figure if im going to build bikes that i cant ride legally on the road, i may as well have one with a big ass motor question is, is it too big and heavy? We will see

 

[harry76]

And i think its 1950ish but im not sure, looks older to me. It has old style Lucas igntion which i thought was quite old. I will do more investigating tommorrow, i havent even had that good of a look at it.

Tommorrow i may lay this motor down (its HEAVY) on the ground and lay my Indian build frame to see how it looks in a frame and if its not too tall, it seems skinny enough. It would only be for reference for sizing obviously as id need to custom make a frame

EDIT: i think i found some info, for now i think its a 1950 model 500cc

 

[wayne z]

The little belt pully on the engine was prolly for a belt driven generator. Might have been retrofitted.

 

[rustycase]

Gosh, what a nice old engine, Harry!

How far did you have to travel to pick it up?

I'll bet W is correct, that it was re-purposed to run something else, by adding on that small sheave... maybe a generator, pump, or even a small mini-bike project.

I'm gonna guess the engine is possibly built before 1915.
Will be fun to see what you eventually discover.

Hey Harry.....
Will you start up a new thread for this engine's project?

You did such a great thread with the Villiers project !

...My two cents for the day...
Diesel is your friend.
Except for the mag, I'd apply a LOT of diesel to the engine before attempting to loosen anything. It works great on breaking through rust and corrosion on threads.

Best
rc