Velocars and other interesting vehicles.

[silverbear]

SB the HF up there buy ya ll carrying the 670cc V twin yet theyd work great in your cyclecar

Thanks Rick,
I've decided that a velocar is not in my future as much as I like them. I have too many projects as it is and will focus on finishing the Indian Hiawatha tri-car and a Schwinn hybrid delta trike using a Villiers Midget engine and I'm ashamed to say I have two more bikes in process. I'm a slow builder so I'll be lucky to get done what I have going already.
SB

 

[moto-klasika]

Zoran,
thanks for sharing the pictures... I have been staring for several minutes at picture #2 showing the sub structure and thinking to myself how nice it would be to have a removable cab for my hybrid delta trike. Something with plastic pipe or light conduit covered in fabric and clear plastic for "windows" would work. Something to think about.
SB

Hello SB,
Today I found so many Russian velocars/velomobiles, that could open special tread just for them. maybe, they are from thier "sister" nations, but all that is the same to us.
Just a few older pictures, maybe from magazine that I red decades ago... and, again one "sociable" for Annie,

 

[moto-klasika]

I like that Waltham Orient. What fun that would be riding through the countryside (on a newly paved road).
SB

Hello SB,
My dream too! Maybe a real one - that should be the simplest "auto" and a little more "comfortable" than Red-Bug, of Smith-Flyer. That is quite old concept, but not use a lot. Waltham Orient have a few variants htat look almost as real automobiles.

 

[silverbear]

Hello SB,
My dream too! Maybe a real one - that should be the simplest "auto" and a little more "comfortable" than Red-Bug, of Smith-Flyer. That is quite old concept, but not use a lot. Waltham Orient have a few variants htat look almost as real automobiles.

Pictures 4 & 5 ring my bells...
SB

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

Ah yes the Sociable Essentially it's like a sidecar outfit where the driver and passenger (if there is one) both sit in the sidecar. There are lots of advantages to this in that the vehicle retains all the maneuverability of a sidecar outfit, but with increased stability as well as more comfort and weather protection for the driver.
The best example of the breed is the Scott Sociable which I've always been fond of. Some might say that I like them because they are strange, - which does have an element of truth, - but I mostly like them because they are are a practical and useful vehicle.
The Blake Sociable is another favourite of mine which is acting as a major influence on my 'Intrepid' cyclecar build.

 

[moto-klasika]

Hello Annie,
As Scott had special and complicated chassis - I am wonder why they didn't pull front wheel at the middle? There were such vehicles simply with motorcycle and side-car with driver seating in it. Then, it is simple solution and probably better then ordinary m-c & s-c combination

 

[moto-klasika]

...it was done before!

 

[moto-klasika]

...and later, and even now!
Ignore wheelchairs in sidecars - important is layout!
Therefore, maybe it is possible?
Zoran

 

[silverbear]

...it was done before!

Zoran,
You just had to post those pictures of the Seal Sociable, didn't you? Dang! Do you realize you may be contributing to the delinquency of a geezer???

Here I had decided that a velocar/cyclecar of any sort was out of the picture for me, trying my best to be practical and adult-like... now this! Arggg... I can't help it, I now see my 1934 Elgin transformed into an elegant sociable. I still have 1/3 of a Grumman canoe left over from making a sidecar for my Panther from a 17 footer damaged in a rapids.

That section of canoe got narrowed a good bit to make a sidecar, but with a sociable I would leave the remaining section's width alone in order to seat two side by side. Yes, it could become a sociable body. Have to do some measuring tomorrow.

The Elgin Velocipede is for the most part done as a two wheeler. Over the winter I'll be finishing some things up, making a copper headlight for it, finish setting up the SBP shift kit going to a 3 speed rear hub... powered by a lovely old Villiers midget of 98cc. Still have to set up the manual clutch. Tinsmith may be making up a cylindrical behind the seat gas tank out of copper. I have a brass hand pump for it to give air to an old brass horn. Lots of cool stuff is in the works to satisfy my lust for things art deco.

And now this Sociable complication has entered the equation. On the plus side this would not involve a whole new build and could be done as a kind of addition later on. Plenty of time to think about it. I can picture it though, along with that folding canopy top and windshield. Very cool and practical as well... sigh...

I wonder how the steering is accomplished. I bet Annie knows how it works.
SB

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

I wonder how the steering is accomplished. I bet Annie knows how it works.
SB

Madam Annie knows all and sees all

The steering is usually quite basic SB with just a steering arm and a draglink to the forks. I would imagine for something more sophisticated a modified rack and pinion steering setup could be used, though I do realise that getting them without power steering attached to them is a lot harder than it was in these modern times.
The sidecar rigs for folk in wheelchairs is a natural development from the sociable. At one time when my mobility was looking like it was going to get a lot worse I started to think about building up something of the kind. The big advantage a sociable has over a trike is that it's a two track vehicle which means that it's a lot happier on unmade roads, rutted farm tracks and the like. The sociable's sidecar outfit like layout tends to have improved handling over a trike and it's also more roomy for carrying a load without having an overlong wheelbase.

Zoran! - thank you for the Seal pictures I hadn't seen a couple of those before. The other vintage sociable pictures are dead corker too and will go a long way to leading me astray and actually building one on my old rickshaw frame.

Silverbear, - best to just go quietly and not fight the impulse to build a sociable. For us older folk they are actually really practical as you can be nice and tucked up in a sidecar like bodyshell instead of sitting out in the weather on a bicycle seat exposed to the elements.
I'm looking forward to seeing how your Elgin progresses and remember if you're stuck for any small but essential Villiers parts PM me and ask and if I've got one I'll send it winging your way via express carrier pigeon

 

[Ludwig II]

Why wasn't the Sociable designed as a trike? Because the designer was Alfred Angas Scott and, being a Yorkshireman, he did things his own way. Did you know he was a pioneer in 2 stroke induction control, when everybody else was just happy the things ran at all?

 

[Allen_Wrench]

Thanks for posting the pictures of the Seals, Zoran. It is an interesting vehicle which seems to be a mix of cyclecar (in that it's controlled from inside the coachwork) and motorcycle with sidecar (in that most of the motorcycle powering this vehicle is bolted to the outside). Poor Silverbear, it certainly would be a fun thing to replicate.
Me, I've been dealing with my own temptation in velocar/cyclecar interests of late. Last night came onto Craigslist a pair (a pair no less) of 1974 Hondas - a CL360 and a CB - both complete but non-running, and both for *gasp* $200 US DOLLARS. Just one of these would make a perfect donor bike for the cyclecar project I haven't started yet. Having worked on old Hondas, you can guess I'm not too terribly concerned about the "non-running" part of the description. I had a reply sent off in about half an hour after the ad was posted. I've been hoping and crossing my fingers all morning. Wish me luck.

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

Those old Hondas were good I used to own one and it was teeeerrrific

 

[Allen_Wrench]

I loved them. I used to ride on the back of a friend's CB1100. We had a dealership in Mansfield, Mack Honda, which was full of decent people. And Mansfield being small was an ideal place to commute by motorcycle, so we had CBs running around all over Mansfield. All the owners loved them so far as I know.

 

[fasteddy]

Ludwig,

One of my long distant ancestors was Swift Nick. A few of my more recent ancestors walked in his foot steps.

Steve.

 

[moto-klasika]

Why wasn't the Sociable designed as a trike? Because the designer was Alfred Angas Scott and, being a Yorkshireman, he did things his own way. Did you know he was a pioneer in 2 stroke induction control, when everybody else was just happy the things ran at all?

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello Ludwig,[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]If I remember well some of the facts known from my first book about classic motorcycles (unfortunately thrown-away by third wife of my brother after his death), SCOTT motorcycles were quite unusual from a few aspects, beside having two-stroke engines: engines were water-cooled, with gas-tank on "wrong" place, unorthodox frame and chain final drive when many other still use belts for that... That Alfred must be quite extraordinary fellow in his period, but interesting for us today, too. [/FONT]

 

[moto-klasika]

Thanks for posting the pictures of the Seals, Zoran. It is an interesting vehicle which seems to be a mix of cyclecar (in that it's controlled from inside the coachwork) and motorcycle with sidecar (in that most of the motorcycle powering this vehicle is bolted to the outside). Poor Silverbear, it certainly would be a fun thing to replicate.
Me, I've been dealing with my own temptation in velocar/cyclecar interests of late. Last night came onto Craigslist a pair (a pair no less) of 1974 Hondas - a CL360 and a CB - both complete but non-running, and both for *gasp* $200 US DOLLARS. Just one of these would make a perfect donor bike for the cyclecar project I haven't started yet. Having worked on old Hondas, you can guess I'm not too terribly concerned about the "non-running" part of the description. I had a reply sent off in about half an hour after the ad was posted. I've been hoping and crossing my fingers all morning. Wish me luck.

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello Allen, [/FONT]
​

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Good luck with your HONDA motorcycles, they could be excellent base for quite powerful motorised velocar or cycle-car, or whatever final shape you choose...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]
I am still not sure about stability of "sociable" motorcycle combination. Maybe it would be better or worse than motorcycle with sidecar? Should be there place for two persons, side-by-side? I think that driver (and passenger) should be positioned as much at rear as possible with side wheel pulled more forward than in a case of ordinary side-car?

Probably that four-wheel cycle-car would have better performances, especially road-holding, but some more work involved than with SEAL “sociable” replica. (it is much simpler project than SCOTT combination)[/FONT]

 

[Ludwig II]

Britain had some funny rules about numbers of wheels and weight and road tax, which rumbled on until just a few years ago. That probably explains using the 3 wheeler.

 

[moto-klasika]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello SB,[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]For sure that I intentionally did this crime: why should you feel better than I feel during some decades, from early childhood. It seems that I had some small but influential “evil advocate” in my head, that like to disturb my with ideas of designing and building various mechanical things (mostly vehicles). My imagination and sense for irrationality help him a lot... A lot of “projects” was shown as quite unreal, even lunatic and some were not far away from reality, but shown as impossible for me... (always that BUT appeared!). Some were finished in more-or-less successful way. During many decades, I narrowed a lot my plans, abounding one by one of ideas and desires. Now, I have a hope that could finished (if started) one small quadricycle for two of us, or at least motorised velocar developed from my present HPV-quadricycle... Of course, any input from outside wasn't helpful in my fight to return on “way of reality”. In previously decades, that was my older brother, but now a few friends from Internet. Between them, John from USA, is the most dangerous, as expert for King-Midgets, but with open mind for any kind of small motorised vehicles... Just when I decide that there is not any more projects, he find some cute vehicle and show me details, or give some solutions for my old dilemmas about design and construction issues... Of course, I return him with all my knowledge and experience, torturing him from time to time. Now, he became crazy about Velorex replica – quite new vehicle for him. The same, I will torture you and a few other, presented here...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]--- ---[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Back to practicality: anybody who like that, and have good motorcycle or motor-bicycle (original, replica or DIY), could use it simply for “sociable” combination. Reconstruction shouldn't be too complicated, just a little more than to build and install side-car to motorcycle. If not be satisfied, everything could be return to “normal”... Our modern bicycles, even mopeds shouldn't be strong enough for that, and for sure they are not so good-looking. Pity that third wife of my deceased brother took and sold Moto-Guzzi 500 Falcone that he promised to give me. It would be nice base for sociable, without destroying its mechanical beauty...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Your Elgin Velocipede is the right thing for mentioned transformation! Found photo on Internet and then your tread about building it. (I attached its photo, and a photo of my brother and Moto-Guzzi - for better illustration)[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Please, keep dreaming, building and posting![/FONT]

 

[Allen_Wrench]

Frowny face. Missed out on the Hondas. I learned they were pretty much sold mere minutes after being posted. I didn't see the ad until a half hour after post-time. Oh well, at just $200, I can't say I expected them to linger. But there will be others. And in a few months I will have an income tax return.