Velocars and other interesting vehicles.
- Thread starter Intrepid Wheelwoman
- Start date
moto-klasika
Member
... yes, that is one of many good things about such forums!
As I once wrote to Pete Stevenson (Cycle-karts and pedal-cars): "I am glad that I am not the only one lunatic in this World"!
As I once wrote to Pete Stevenson (Cycle-karts and pedal-cars): "I am glad that I am not the only one lunatic in this World"!
moto-klasika
Member
... there was a story about that: owner beleived in manufacturer's claims about heavy-duty-quad's possibility to take huge load without problems! He drove it a little agressive at corners...
With my quadricycle, I must be careful until test its original MTB wheels at corners under full load of two of us (at first just me)! In any case - pensioner style of driving will be practised...
BarelyAWake
New Member
True, it's also worthwhile to note the differences in rim loading, a trike or quad's wheels subject to a lot more lateral force, flex can be the primary contributing factor in failure, even impact damage is usually not as severe if the rim was true and hit on center - rims "taco" most often if hit off center & bent over, they're not nearly as strong sidewise lol
An interesting difference in the strengths of aluminum & steel rims is while steel tends to fare better in impact, it is more prone to lateral flex then the typical double-walled aluminum, a far more rigid structure for it's size & weight then a typical "heavy duty" steel rim.
An advantage of steel is it can take some amount of flexing & warping & regain it's shape whereas aluminum less likely to distort - but once it does it's usually over. Thing is the more the lateral deflection, the weaker the wheel structure becomes & with trikes & quads this side load is almost constant, every even slight turn & there's loading from the side, unlike with a leaner. Of course as is true with all wheels, the larger the wheel the greater the lateral leverage - so smaller is stronger in this case.
Motorcycle steel rims are a solution, overcoming the flex issue with sheer mass - however there's a penalty in weight & cost. I personally prefer as short a spoke length as I can manage (smaller OD/larger hub and/or flange) rather than as thick a spoke & wider double wall aluminum rims. This reduces weight and flex & in my trike's case - unsprung weight, which aids speed stability over bumps.
As with anything, there's more then one solution & no problem quite the same - but I've been quite pleased with the three Alex DX32 double wall aluminum rims (2 20" & 1 26") on my taddy, despite the 14g spokes & additional weight of a hybrid system (about 120lbs dry) I've not had any detectable flex or deflection, I've never even needed to retrue my wheelset;
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Barely,
Interesting and valuable comments on deflection in trike wheels. When I added a sidecar onto my 50 Panther I went through several rear wheel fixes (broken spokes) before finally switching over to 11 gauge spokes which seem to be stout enough to hold up. There's a lot of lateral pressure even in slow turns which is something to think about when planning a build with more than two wheels.
SB
Interesting and valuable comments on deflection in trike wheels. When I added a sidecar onto my 50 Panther I went through several rear wheel fixes (broken spokes) before finally switching over to 11 gauge spokes which seem to be stout enough to hold up. There's a lot of lateral pressure even in slow turns which is something to think about when planning a build with more than two wheels.
SB
moto-klasika
Member
Hello there,
I am aware of fragility of ordinary bicycle’s wheels for multi-wheel vehicles, especially if they are 26" as my MTB are. I just have a hope that my HPV-qaudricycle shouldn’t collapse under weight at corners and curves...
I wanted to build it entire my life and almost finished it. It wasn't as I planed, but I wanted to build it simple without "destroying" good new frames, without welding... So, it appeared too short, too narrow (but good for bicycle's lines here in Bern) and too high (but comfortable for seating position)... If I ever built one new, I will try to correct all that, making something as classic velocar, with engine...
However, problems of wheels shall stay. I suppose that with fixing axles on both sides in a style of bicycle, I would avoid problems with standard axles and bearings. But, wire-spokes and rims should be problematic. Some people suggested BMX 20" wheels, maybe with moped's tyres of 16"... Not quite in my style, and couldn't find any of them here. Or to build wheels by myself as was suggested in AtomicZombi Forum?
In Belgrade, I could by relatively cheap moped wheels of 18" complete with axles, bearings, and tyres... However, they had axles of under 1/2" so must be fixed on both sides...
Still have time to think about all that...
I am aware of fragility of ordinary bicycle’s wheels for multi-wheel vehicles, especially if they are 26" as my MTB are. I just have a hope that my HPV-qaudricycle shouldn’t collapse under weight at corners and curves...
I wanted to build it entire my life and almost finished it. It wasn't as I planed, but I wanted to build it simple without "destroying" good new frames, without welding... So, it appeared too short, too narrow (but good for bicycle's lines here in Bern) and too high (but comfortable for seating position)... If I ever built one new, I will try to correct all that, making something as classic velocar, with engine...
However, problems of wheels shall stay. I suppose that with fixing axles on both sides in a style of bicycle, I would avoid problems with standard axles and bearings. But, wire-spokes and rims should be problematic. Some people suggested BMX 20" wheels, maybe with moped's tyres of 16"... Not quite in my style, and couldn't find any of them here. Or to build wheels by myself as was suggested in AtomicZombi Forum?
In Belgrade, I could by relatively cheap moped wheels of 18" complete with axles, bearings, and tyres... However, they had axles of under 1/2" so must be fixed on both sides...
Still have time to think about all that...
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
I'd suggest asking fasteddy in a PM. He's done a lot of research on this.
SB
SB
moto-klasika
Member
Hello SB,
Maybe there are more people interested in this issue, so FastEddy's information should be useful if posted in public?
--- ---
Ludwig,
Installing bearings with larger ID but the same OD without machine tooloing hubs could be solution. That was mentioned here-and-there and used for Cycle-Karts, too. I will search for them in Belgrade... (any kind is too expensive, here in Swiss)
Maybe there are more people interested in this issue, so FastEddy's information should be useful if posted in public?
--- ---
Ludwig,
Installing bearings with larger ID but the same OD without machine tooloing hubs could be solution. That was mentioned here-and-there and used for Cycle-Karts, too. I will search for them in Belgrade... (any kind is too expensive, here in Swiss)
NEAT TIMES
New Member
Now you did it !!!
SB & F Eddy will use them for the 2015 Model Side Cars !! lol
Ron
SB & F Eddy will use them for the 2015 Model Side Cars !! lol
Ron
For those of us in North America the Honda 90 wheels are the best choice as the cycle kart guys have found out. With 37 mm od and 22 mm id measurements the Dayton 6904zz bearing presses in and a shim made from pop can aluminum fills in for the undersized 3/4" axle. If you are making the spindles finding 22mm bolts the proper length would be best.
When I contact the machinist about the motor for the tricar I'll ask him if it's possible to turn down steel or aluminum tubing to make a supply of shim stock to take up the 2.5 mm distance between 22 mm inside diameter of the bearing and the 19.5 mm outside diameter of the 3/4" axle.
I will probably have him make the spindles with 22 mm axles for the vellocar.
For European builders the vastly greater supply of wheels available would make it a simple matter of finding wheels with a 37 mm outside bearing diameter and ordering bearings with a 22 mm center.
Steve.
When I contact the machinist about the motor for the tricar I'll ask him if it's possible to turn down steel or aluminum tubing to make a supply of shim stock to take up the 2.5 mm distance between 22 mm inside diameter of the bearing and the 19.5 mm outside diameter of the 3/4" axle.
I will probably have him make the spindles with 22 mm axles for the vellocar.
For European builders the vastly greater supply of wheels available would make it a simple matter of finding wheels with a 37 mm outside bearing diameter and ordering bearings with a 22 mm center.
Steve.
Intrepid Wheelwoman
New Member
Honda wheels are the bee's knees 
I'm using 18inch Honda wheels from one of the older 100cc models on the 'Intrepid' cyclecar.
I'm using 18inch Honda wheels from one of the older 100cc models on the 'Intrepid' cyclecar.
moto-klasika
Member
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello Steve and thank you![/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]
Probably that it is the simplest way to get strong axle for moped wheels. I am afraid that building wheels from hubs up, isn't for me here.
Last evening, I found on internet small Serbian company that sell all kinds of bearings, axles and everything else connected. Haven't time to search lot through their catalog, but found a few interesting solutions. Only couldn't find ball-bearing with such dimensions. Mostly, there are big difference between ID and OD. Only, there are similar dimensions with needle-bearings, but I couldn't be sure if they are good for axial forces (side-load at curves and corners)? [/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Regards,[/FONT]
Attachments
moto-klasika
Member
Hello Zoran,
From what I understand needle bearings are used for up and down motion only such as in connecting rods in engines. They do not do well with side force being applied where ball bearings can handle force from both directions much more easily.
Does your catalog show the 6904zz bearing. I think these numbers are used world wide. If Honda wheels are hard to find in Belgrade are there wheels that are of equal quality that can be used?
Steve.
From what I understand needle bearings are used for up and down motion only such as in connecting rods in engines. They do not do well with side force being applied where ball bearings can handle force from both directions much more easily.
Does your catalog show the 6904zz bearing. I think these numbers are used world wide. If Honda wheels are hard to find in Belgrade are there wheels that are of equal quality that can be used?
Steve.
wheelbender6
Well-Known Member
We normally had to hit something pretty hard to taco a wheel on a mountain bike. Kind of scary to think that cornering can cause the same thing in a trike or quad.
