Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Morini Bicycle Engine' started by Goat Herder, Apr 7, 2011.
I found this flat washer shim kit
That is a great kit Magrider! I am still looking for the shims to fit the dowels and at the bottom of the bolt flange to shim it up. From what I can tell those are for the washer stack on the bolt flange? Between two clutches I have a pretty good collection coming together..That shim collection will work great with a longer bolt flange prolly.
Wanted to say after the Grippa stones then the Genuine Morini stones the bell surface feels more level and Square? Puzzles me a little? When I do drivabilty clutch, carby tuning test came to a realization I am very abusive and go through more gas too.
When I re-timed my stack I have a clutch that just a little stubbornly locks up too soon sometimes. The clutch is acting like it can hold more H.P. . . It will hole shot sweet as strong as I've ever seen it. Can get it to slip right out of the hole. If I pick a speed and hold it there for a few it will try to lock and stay locked especially at about 25mph.
Does not do it all the time I have to cruise it that way for awhile over a distance to make it duplicate. Not to, too bad but its actually set too tight right now on purpose . The master plan is to let it simply break in. Sediment on the clutch washers etc. Going to leave and let live sorta thing until it bothers me.
In which case I can clean the stacks out and or simply remove one flat washer shim. I am convinced personally it will be a long time before this happens tho based on experience with the first stock clutch.
The drivabiltiy is very entertaining to me as having a clutch grab this well is a treat and interesting to play with and study.
I am really sold on this shimming the clutch out for optimum grab idea ATM.
Day three detailed the bike spotless, clean and road around quite a bit. Feels like I can truly give it a rest now. Wondering how long it will be until it changes any. It has not changed at all one bit so far . Planning to stay up on the oil changes and what not to see how long this holds. ''Washer sediment'' If it is anything like the new clutch? Thinking there will a hard core productive summer of everyday riding all the way well into next summer! Well mebbe!? Depends on the old bell?? So don't really know.. Have a good feeling about tho. 6000 miles? meh?
If it breaks I will eat crow and fess up. Only time will tell just cannot know everything or predict the future lol. I learned a bunch over these few days!
The angry freaky abusive testing is finally at a calm. I just appreciate the machine, save some for tomorrow and simply cruise it from here on out.. Drive a bit more sensibly. Smell the roses. Which is friggin hard to do some times.
This time around convinced the over all drivabilty is going to be even better over time. Gave this pig some very good detail in this last round as every time had it back apart my approach with it was methodically considerably sharpened in light of just how tight it finally came out..What things I tried, recently revisited and just learned..This line up is it.
OK little better hind sight and reflection on things here. This stack would have been better served with the stainless steel washers I Think? Reason being is that the stainless steel washers maintain better tension throughout the entire spring stroke. Gonna leave things as is. The real testing will be better served when it's over 100 degrees outside. Say June , July? If I had it all to do over again knowing what I am seeing ATM would have used Stainless. Other than that the currant progression is working great..
for more riding.. Until I get enough mileage under my belt and truly prove something works well these are just ideas? I don't want somebody to mess their stuff up? I have no idea if this is even a worthy plan may have ruined it dunno? I am trying to prove a cutting edge high performance , seamless operation maintenance free clutch for myself. Getting to the realization those those don't always work in the same sentence lol. .
My ditty with oil experimentation put heavy gum deposits on the beveled stack.. After a prolonged hot severe race performance summer day run. Had to break it down and clean it up with a rag by hand as the stall got raised significantly.. The stones and bell look like they have not seen a moments wear ''seriously''.
I am on ATF for now for the moment with something new. I put a oil weep hole on each side of the stone castings to let a constant flow of oil through into the beveled stack. about 4mm right at the bottom hub side of the stones just flush with the bottom of the stack cavity. . Thoughts? This could keep the stack well rinsed and cooled as well and possibly prolong washer life and the clutch as a whole? For a moment last night I thought I had ruined things? This mod is irreversible.
Maxima is the best oil to date that I know about personally. Have not used the Belray enough to say?
I assembled a known good stack the 6 bevel pair that currently showed great promise. The stall raised about 600 rpm or more across everything. I road around then drained the oil to briefly,,, rev the bike Ayup. The oiling is working and changed all aspects of the way it stalls. This oil shows up at the stones and bell. So went with 5 1/2 bevels and a flat washer it works good and has been very enjoyable drivability wise for the moment..
But. Have to make up my mind? .. In light of how it looks and acts now I might be able to run 5 bevel washers and a flat shim and be seamless in all aspects operation? Does show good promise! Have not changed anything with the non beveled shim arrangement..
The clutch will lock up at any speed when acceleration has subsided with a seamless personality when tweaking the throttle very slightly ''still has the right progression'' however the passing gear ''like in a car'' effect is interesting to study and works great!! The bottom end off the line is fine but the carbon steel bevels dump their travel at the power band swing and the bottom end could use a very slight bit more grip.. This is me being very very very picky and refined about it... Gotta ride more the way it is and reflect on every aspect of operation then will edit.
Just switched it to just 5 bevels and completely went over the other shimming arrangement. Back to a slower take off from too early of engagement. . Just where the shims put me and what I have shrug. it's a tight arrangement tho. Will just have to ride it.
just put the last of my Belray in.. there is no comparison every little nuance always seams to improve. . Works good again. At this point ether it is Belray or Maxima for me in its purity. Tired of trying different oil and they always work perfectly for me left alone with a adjusted clutch..............
http://www.belray.com/sites/default...ransmission oil 80w item 99250 us_english.pdf
Sitting with the Maxima again with just the said stack carbon steel ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) the rotatory pump effect of the oil holes on the stone castings have made things very interesting and while I do not completely know what to make of it? Could prove to be crap?
I like this one the most so far out of everything so far. I can creep and effortlessly crawl really freak-en ''slow'' Up a modest hill the works, with the throttle I mean barely cracked and at any time floor it and the bike will quickly scramble to speed. The bike will go at any speed I choose and stay there ''steady'' too. . It's like I have gears? Weird. After going back to my old Maxima oil it is all I will ever use at this point as well. All the other oils just wasted my time.IMHO..
These weep holes are on both sides of the stone cast bodies. The carbon steel washers have been working great.
Currant clutch set has been cherry for my everyday riding and fits my bi polar mood swings when riding nicely. It is not really up to par with competitive racing but will with ease smoke a H.T. here no problem. Still running with the weep hole set up I drilled and it has been pretty pleasant over all. Has not changed and remains very consistent. I am pleased at last cannot nit pick after trying all the known variables too me.
Problem I have now is the hot summer days the carb is a tad too rich now. Summer air at altitude just got thinner. So i leaned out the fuel adjustment screw and put it away for the morning. In the morning it was much cooler out side. It wanted to be set richer again. I got it to duplicate the situation two more times. As I ride the same route to work every day. I ran into a nice light brown electrode. But it was building up flecks of golden brown towards the electrode. In two months time had to clean the plug twice.
Put a fresh hot plug in and split the difference on the carb adjustment for now. Time will tell. That plug was in there since last October. Prolly over analyzing the situation a tad? Still running the same hour glassed main jet , currant posted last fall season jetting and guts.. 49cc at elevation here with a 21mm carby is bound to be a little finicky? Shrug. This motor prefers in my experience with me on it cooler months of the year for it's best power margins.
As for video been to darn busy and my currant cam is crappy. Been strapped for cash and cannot get it to recognize the memory card now.
Goat, the 3 shoe is a good clutch to have and I do miss the slight slip off the line. The new disk clutch doesn't slip and the engagement was consistant even after 12 hard laps.
The only reason I got the clutch was my 3 shoe delamanated 1/2 a shoe.
do you guy's use a reed stuffer? and can i use a 3 shoe in my 2 shoe drum? thanks dennis [mag. your bike haul's''A'']
The shape/length of the intake pipe that came with my Boxer might be doing that for me dunno? I order the performance package to go with the S6S then went to the 21mm carb. Never tried a reed stuffer on my Morini's. This intake being a tad longer helps the low end on my currant machine nice I think. As it has always pulled hard from a stop. Likely gonna do the same with my L/C motors next as I bought the same manifold for them and the next BoXer build up..
I think it compliments my pipe coming on like it does.
The last few days with a new plug has totally cleared up my prob's. I set my carb back to about how rich I had it before , and cleared up my D.H. http://www.motoredbikes.com/showthread.php?t=4394&page=5
Yeah you can get a Three shoe clutch stuffed into a Two shoe bell, but the two shoe bell is narrower in width so part of your shoes will be hanging out the outside
edge. Something like mebbe 1/8 inch more minus than plus if I remember right? The two shoe bell has the same inside diameter just narrower. Never ran that combo for very long. It was working good tho.
I tried it briefly with the first grippa I bought and got the right bell as soon as I had the money. Last I wanted my two shoe bell to be left alone to match up with the cherry two shoe clutch which I still have not used.. Holding on to it for a rainy day.
thanks for the info. dennis
Man that is kinda of a bummer that the progressive personality is not there. Perhaps just a little more tweaking on the three adjustment screws?? I am sure you'll get it.. Gonna try one of these after you figure it out for me lol.
I have to say my currant drilled out weep hole set up experiment has been cherry . Changed the oil in 500 or so miles and had no metal in it. Let some hit my forefinger and thumb while it was draining to make that judgment and just saw oil that had burnt a bit and was not honey colored anymore. The Maxima 85W. oil was still pretty clean and clear. No metal or any particulates, ash etc on my finger at all... Checked three times While it drained.
This arrangement I am on is not race worthy because it tries to lock up sometimes at 30mph and if I don't hit the throttle right I get a tiny bit of hesitation because the slip progression is not there until I hit the motors true power band .
Only happens at about 30mph and only happens when I've been purposely cruising the machine over a prolonged distance at that speed, say up hill towards the mountains here. IF I drive aggressively this trait always goes away tho.. The progression is there thoroughly through and through.
Off the line nothing has changed.. I can,,, and I do mean! ''barely'' crack the throttle the smallest fraction of an inch and creep around really freaking slow with the motor taking a nap. Big time! Go WOT and the progression shows up again just like a passing gear. Weird it is like I have a few gears at my disposal! Gas millage is wicked Kewl when plain slow cruising across town.. To me better than any H.T. motor I have personally seen to date...
However because of the weep holes sometimes I feel like it stalls about 100 or more rpm's too high at the 1/3 of max speed range area when I hammer it really hard on a hot day at times ''rotor pump effect''. This currant stack ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) would be doggish slow and severely boring with out it IME. Just an interesting experiment that I am happy to report has worked very pleasantly for everyday city driving here . The WOT hole shot is very aggressive when i need it to be!
These are pretty picky speculation's tho every day driving is really peachy..
Had a very slight personality change with the new fresh oil. That is to be expected. After a day of driving and then on the first day when the motor warmed up,, it's just the same as I started out when I first put this stack arrangement together. Gonna go the long haul on this one with the Maxmia.
If I was competitively racing I would do things on this type clutch a bit different.... It is not far from the mark tho. So far this clutch set up drive ability wise is awesome in the city streets and a occasional side walk ''rare but always politically polite short cuts when i cheat and take one ''.
It takes on a completely different very pleasant personality that works flawless for stealth quite cruising and still works great for aggressive riding. The testing stage I am at is dead on too for brutality ,, as it is in the two most brutal hottest months of the summer now and really cannot complain at all.
I will be happy with this set up in any other months of the year.
Splitting the difference on the jetting Vy the mixture screw is working and holding up great on the spark plug. Still on my reported jetting ''untouched'' that was used this last fall and winter.. Although there is some personallity with the jetting in the morning the tiny 49cc motor is a bit froggier than in the afternoon.
Just cannot believe how friggin awesome this motor/bike has been! I ride this thing absolutely ever day! Except for brutal wet, cold winter days. Dry days are great lol. Dean made a great bike for this motor!! Just to wanted to say as well.. Thanks Dean!
About a month ago:
This friggin hot weather has teased me just a little with my 21mm PHBG Del carb . In the heat of the afternoon it is too rich. In the Morning its just a smidgin too lean. This has been so ever so slight some one else might not notice but I sure do?
Researched spark plugs at work and found one that will self clean perfect to go even richer for optimum power! 6 heat range with an extended electrode non resister. NGK BP7ES of Japaneses origin. Realized I was sitting on 3 of them!! Nice 19mm reach and still works with my D.H. attachment. Most importantly does not hit the piston with my temp gauge washer ring there too!! lol.
While playing with the air mixture screw began too notice the tiniest spot on my throttle body needle that I wanted to make ''I mean JUST barely richer''.
Gave it two days of thinking and chucked up the throttle body needle in a cordless drill. Right at the tip of the needle 1/4 of an inch inward took off guessing? about 1 thousand of an inch with sand paper. Used 80 grit then chased the scratches back of with 1200 grit. Material came off alarmingly fast. Glade I quit when I did!! Seams to be spot on!!
So far I like it!
Re-timed the W7 needle from the sand paper mod to second notch from the top now put in a 60 pilot jet, left the main alone which most importantly got the slide to open more during throttle progression!!
The text book perfect golden chocolate with out the previous scale build up that would get trapped in the flush style set electrode I was using.
This plug stays clean now!!
My rotatory oil holes are working great! Had to clean the washer stack's free from sludge build up twice. Ended up filing out more clearance inside the clutch cavities to prevent any rubbing just a bit so's not to raise the stall of the stack's over time.. Split the difference so to speak.
It has been mebbe 2000 miles on this last said arrangement now. The Bevel concave spring washers lost their temper. On a good heat soak the stall was coming on way to early.
Happy to report that the exact same stack arrangement is still working. Clutch barley shows any wear too. This is the best arrangement I have come to date with for my clutch by far.
Reused the said bottom concave washers that rest in the bevel shaped section of the clutch stone cavity where the stack/shims resides. Never did put a flat washer there just let one of the bevel washers sit right in the dished slot . It deformed the washer and it matches that shape at the bottom of the clutch stone casting exactly now. Put in some fresh carbon steel washers
Have not strayed from my Maxima....
Time for a new rear tire.. Found a good one to try out just ordered it yesterday. Just dropped from a 52 rear tooth sprocket to a 49. 36 mph this motor is taking a nap. lol.
I also wanted to say in my observations that ATF I used ''breifly'' will burn up a clutch and so will any other fluid that makes it slip in my opinion! When I made my one trip around the block trying my rotatory deal for the first time the clutch slipped a lot. It blued my bell a little in that short very amount of time. Had pure ATF at the time.That worked out good mebbe accidentally ? As it prolly tempered the steel on the bell a little? Dunno? but I knew it was wrong and did not just keep running it that way.
So the right oil for the job is where I am at... Dunno what get's used in the Hole shot disk clutch? I know what I am using in my stone one. This clutch is working REALLY GOOD right now and I love it!! Gonna set up my other clutches like this one currently is later on.
Well went round and round again with my clutch and revisited re-timing the washer stacks with my three homemade washers shims in the clutch bolts..
Bolt shims pictured here. http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc400/GoatHerder123123/001-1.jpg
As follows.. bolt shim at the clutch hub and bolt shoulder where it cinches to the hub / then my deformed squished 3 flat bevel washers in the bottom of the clutch stone cavity like hub / bolt then bolt bottom ( / / / / ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) bolt head ..
The amount of squish that happened to my one washer at the bottom of each stone cavity over prolonged time and much colder morning weather threw everything out of whack..
Those three old washers are now very very flat . This changed my progression as a result and reinventing took it's course.
I had a clutch that came on too soon and a bike that ran like a turd. No power liken to a motor worn plumb out lol.
The above mentioned re-timed stack had problems however and much like before.. I got my low stall right but the progression was all wrong. It was like the clutch stones were just bouncing and not grabbing..
A lot like when I tried the comet coil springs long ago with my geared bike.. Could get fair progression,, yet it was like a slipping clutch and then at speed it would lock up to early and it would not break free to go back into a proper needed progression mode for me..
So after 4 valiant well thought out attempts put it at bolt bottom (//// ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) bolt head with no bolt shim at the hub. Reused my squished flat old bevels at the bottom as before and laid my flat washers there. One thick one two thin ones and last a thick one. So what this arrangement is to me ..is a very pleasing way for future dialing in. By removing any one of these shims can easily put things back spot on !!?
This washer timing is stiffer and presents itself very close to the bell. Response and handling is the best yet out of anything previously done IMHO. Pretty darn spot on in ALL manner of my driving habits and trumps anything I previously have done !! Grip off the line is wickedly strong and red line is a couple MPH faster than the first above mentioned timing .
This re-timed set up works absolutely wicked for me and I dare say even a good hole shot to boot.. It will creep about slow and steady as a heart beat in as slows as ...10 mphperfectly flawlessly ...and when I crack the throttle a tiny bit the engine catches a bit higher rpm..... then the clutch locks in again at every speed and so on. Proper progression The way I like it to work !!
My washer stack covered my previous weep holes too much to me at this point? So opted to add new ones about 3mm above the old holes on both sides of my stones again.. These holes are approximately roughly half the previous diameter of the old ones. I like it..
Last filed out the walls of the stone cavity where the stacks go some more with a rotary file and hand drill ''pretty scary stuff'' This helps in my experience to keep the rubbing down inside to a minimum. So far I did not take to much material out as every thing has not fallen apart yet lol. Also the three clutch bolts are surprisingly smooth at this point. They some how got smoother over time..
With the bolts cinched up and with the dowel pin shims,, two on each dowel. Play was very minimal when wiggling the assembled fully fastened stone but definitely present. I recently tried over shimming a stack it ran strong as all get go out of the gate but heat soak and a crushing preload on the stack ruined those bevel washer stacks way way too prematurely in a matter of a couple of rides.
My thoughts are and is exactly as before....
With out those shims the whole clutch stone would be more apted to hit the drum and favor being out of square IMHO like a worn out drum brake on a car.. You can see these shims in this picture. Cheap generic washers from Harbor Freight. http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc400/GoatHerder123123/P1010016.jpg
I ran out of carbon steel bevel washers and am using stainless steel bevels now too and like them
When my clutch is set up wrong in my own experience it sure is a bummer to me . When it is dialed in.. man !! I am talking pure pleasure and a sense of absolute perfection at times..
I put in 100 miles a week average on this old BoXer bike for a long time now to present. It runs strong as ever. This clutch is barley worn by the way...
Still on the original said bell and even the the thrust washers as well as the bushing inside the bell. Clutch just needs a little love every once in a while. I ran the last reported arrangement all this time up till the last few days... as it was time for an overhaul.. The stones and bell look virtually untouched at this time.
Happy to report wear is at a amazing minimum.
Colder weather made me put in a bigger idle jet in the carby too. nothing else to report. This machine runs awesome !!
Still using the said Maxima with no additives save about a cap full of this stuff for a good seal conditioner every once in a while like twice a year so far. http://www.autobarn.net/white-shepherd.html
Lost track of how many miles are on this engine In the thousands by now and never did change my seal. Motor runs as strong as day one.
Too bad there isn't a way to install a BZM or Polini clutch Because those clutches have springs and set screws/nuts. Another thing is they also have different tension springs.
Yeah I got to admit the amount of relentless time I have spent dialing in one of these clutches has been pretty darn obsessive.. This past year I made some very impressive advancements to me i am personally quite found about and proud of tho .
Do love to document something when it works good! Would not wish this on a new be so much ... I hope something somewhere in my jawing about helps someone, or someone even invents something more better? I can make this pig do my bidding and for that well cannot complain
In a couple of months looks like that decked out L/C may just materialize in proper form with that new model clutch your running. The new job is proving to be stable good income so far. Fixing automobiles ''cars again''.
When the time is near, hit me up and I'll tell you a few minor thing to help you Morini run better.
i'm all ears.. i meen eyes on all the stuff you guys post. thanks keep it up! dennis
I need some tips
Your Dad and Bro moved camp minutes before I took off my cylinder! I was dying to show him everything! lol
Dang an opportunity to see the guts of Easy's beast !! You missed it?
Did a plug check. Spark plug was chocolate brown. A little on the dark side. So the plug is not the right heat range for the cold weather here now ether IMO. Thinking mebbe a 5 heat range? Dunno
Gonna revisit all of the plug stuff I have learned too. With and without my DH. I gotta get a new one. Will report after a bunch of personal debate.
Got a Cloud Nine seat for the bike yesterday from the local bike shop the Kick Stand ''great folks''.. That seat is amazing !! Looks like the one in this link.. Should have got this seat a long time ago.http://cloud9seats.com/cloud9-11-bicycle-seat.htm
Wow Goat. Isn't a 5 too hot? I was going to suggest a B6ES or B7ES
I will try a 6 first. Got that NGK BP7ES in it now and loved this summer. The small engine shop I worked in here this summer at our altitude was running as hot as a 5 in some of their engines in the winter. Denso's.. Still on the fence with it? Plug is cheep enough to try. Will have to monitor it. One week of cold mornings to work will tell me a whole lot.
Don't really know how bad a 5 could look? Prolly over kill?
Had cleaned up that NGK that was in there since my last report about three weeks ago. Looks pretty dark ATM and the idle jet needed a tad richer to boot..
Big difference in temps here from the month of August and now.