Goat's SCSW BoXer

[Goat Herder]

Suspense was just killing me and was a little board. My attack on my old ''dimpled'' Style clutch began to annoy me a little and all I could think of was the 3 fresh Grippa brand model clutch blocks I had just teasing me.

I took a Grippa clutch hub apart and saw the bolts shoulders that came with it were way longer. This was the hub that came out of the old full sus bike I built and had customized it to do a N.V. hub.. I looked at the shoulder bolts that came out of my stock air cooled BoXer and noted that they were like three whole flat spacer washers shorter. Huh?????

This would explain fairly easy why my old reported washer stacks on the first bike I built wound up different.

''Edit'' for later thought...... was up late last night thinking. Slept on it. Longer shoulder means different stack as the clutch blocks would be allowed to move upwards more by some 30 thousands of an inch. That is a big difference. This could very well lead to a whole different approach to clutch attack too!! Begins to match up with the Marten Slader KTM 50/65 sight??

Only wanting to obsess with what I was currently most familiar with opted to use the stock hub and the old shoulder bolts from the BoXer clutch. Then simply put the Grippa stones into the equation as the depth of the inside holes,washers, and bolts looked totally swappable across.

It was notable that the new stones were closer to the bell. Also I simply used my old stock bell as it did not look worn. Went and used old 30 grit sand paper diagonally from two directions to make a non directional cross hatch in the old bell as well. Slapped it all together on the old washer stack. Fired it up with no oil and briefly revved it the clutch seated in immediately . Or so I thought.

So pored in in the Lucas/Belray concoction and flat out shot out of the drive way. This is wicked!!! Half way around the block the clutch finish seating. Bike was a dog. This was predicted tho when I had observed the tightened clearances with the new pads compared to the old ones.

So quickly took the clutch back apart and added one flat washer to each stack.. bingo! Bad to the bone now!. It was time to give up on that old dimpled style stock clutch. It actually had parts of the stone surface that had chipped off disappeared and got digested. Never been truly nice to this motor. lol.The Grippa is now my favorite in this three shoe style model now.

Blue lock tight and always only about 8 foot pounds of torque on my old clutch bolts. Still cherry and don't have much shoulder wear at all from the stack washers. Just shiny spots. . The new washer stack will put washer wear in a different spot too as the bolts have been swapped around to new random locations as well..

Also after putting my stack at ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( / / /. Two flat washers .254mm's and one .127mm. Can still grab hold of the stone blocks [clutch body in hand] and feel a tiny bit of play. So the cool thing is the washers are not preloaded. That's what was hoped for in this deal when I fretted over it. Reused my old bevel washers too. Will prolly change them later. Wanted to keep empirical testing specific.

Stock clutch was with 0ne .254mm and two .127mm's /// in the beginning ''stock'' and then switched to one .254mm and 0ne .127mm // in the end when I took it apart. I could have in now hindsight tuned it better.

New bevel washers would have left me wondering a bit about differences in what I was feeling perhaps? Dunno? Would have to put new ones in and report back. It is working perfectly at the moment so there is no hurry.

I did notice that the the Clutch hub bodies and the bells were a carbon copy dimensions wise from the stock clutch. [[[see post 72]]] The other shoulder bolts must be coincidental for a longer washer stack in a different model engine? As that was the only difference.. Bet that leads to some attack personality on the clutch I have yet to try! Could be very promising?!!

First time I used a Grippa stock like it was designed to be used. Note my other bike had a Jshafted N.V.... Machine runs like it did when it was 3 degree Fahrenheit last winter with no heat soak fade.. The dimpled clutch design never did impress me to be that intelligent as I begun to study this thing. I will not go that route again. Being fugal about it simply used it till it wore out. Still it worked good for awhile tho.

Road it for about 15 miles now need to fire it up again!

So a fellow can pick up 30 dollar grippa style clutches off ebay etc and swap the stones? Pretty sure at this point!!

 

[Goat Herder]

Needed to say tried going heavy on the Lucas again with this clutch just to see where the boundaries are. Acted like my old clutch when over doing it. Go with the directions on the bottle it clearly says 10%. One might feel a sensation of a chain jumping from stalling sooner than the weight of centrifugal force can properly engage the clutch as it makes the clutch stall sooner off idle. So hope nobody gets the idea of over doing that and don't comprehend?

When I run the right amount been mebbe 15% guessing? everything runs perfect so far.

I only noticed it from standing still hard starts and never encountered this until trying the lucas. Gonna keep using this stuff for sure! Just I know better than to over do it is all from studying it from extremes..

Been liking how it helps with a hard core extra long ride with that heat soak that builds up. Clutch attack personality seems to stay more consistent. What I am getting is a way better attack over all with this clutch . My true stall point is much like the old clutch was. Bike is quicker now off the line and cruising rpm is noticeably lower.

Its running like I want it to run again..Getting dashavoo memories of when it was new. Like shocks on a car nobody notices there wore out over a prolonged amount of time. Until they get new shocks.

I had the jug off about two months ago everything looked like new. Factory machine marks were unblemished on the piston and the factory bore hatch marks were still distinguishably present.. The jug needed torqued as well as the head. It did not look like it needed it but I threw a new set of rings on it while I was there and ''very lightly'' honed the cylinder. Then ran it hard straight to the mountain side! Was a confused should I sententious moment? Sententious was there lol. Replaced all the chains too.

''Edit''

for a whole day and another 30 miles of errands total of about 50 now. This clutch set far exceeds performance in every conceivable way over the previous clutch!!!! This thing cruises so stealthy quiet at times its a major perfection for me right now. Best I' ever come across so far. The clutch attack is pretty darn sweet. Hard to complain at all at the moment.

Been cruising at 5 and 20 miles per hour all over town absolutely perfectly seamlessly steady. When at wide open throttle It is stalled high like before but gets to speed faster.

It will be sweet to finally try one of the disk clutch set ups one of these days..

A thought has occurred to me when it comes for a fine tune adjustment to mebbe measure my said three flat washers with a micrometer. Then find the appropriate size feeler gauge from a cheepo harbor freight set and make three custom thickness flat washers the appropriate size?

I have been filling my clutch up with oil past the fill hole for a while now too. Not by a bunch. About right above the fill hole or so. has not harmed anything so far and the breather port on the engine block is unrestricted ''checked it'' There has never been any oil residue there ether.

 

[Goat Herder]

Alright three days of riding and about 90 miles mebbe? Lost track. I began to notice everything had wear mated in far enough to get a clue about what was needed.

Took it all back apart to look at the surface run in. The hatch marks were gone save in the center of the bell. They were still very distinguishable there. My take on it? This is where the fluid runs between the stones? The center of the bell seems higher than the outside edges. I misplaced my mic again, so did not get a chance to measure it. My fingers were telling me it was higher tho every time I studied it..


Problem was I needed to make my shims now. A .051mm, .038mm, one of the stock .127mm and one .254mm //// onto the untouched beveled washers for the look of ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) (//// . Took note of the deck height of the washers on the shoulder bolts and they all looked the same. Close enough for what I am doing any way. lol Still using the old bevel stack for imperial testing sake..

This thing punches hard enough to test all boundaries of the drive train in a very brutal way!!. The hole shot is the strongest yet. It cruses a modest 5 mph or anything between 40. When I punch the throttle there is no transitions it holds dead steady pulling very hard to full speed.

The said heat soak fade for me is sweet now. Because the custom washer shims put me right at fine tune this time around. Should have made my shims a long long time ago i guess . ''Shrug'' Time will tell? This arrangement is set so squeaky close tight now it would lock up too soon in the winter me thinks at the moment? I have to ride it hard for another week or so finish seating the pads in. Ran it late tonight and it took forever to heat soak the motor. . It only takes me about 15 minutes to make a clutch adjustment so I am not ever gonna cry about it.

I did not do anything to my first clutch really just ran the crap out of it and I made it 6000miles with all kind of manner of cargo liken to a third world country picture and me at 250 +pounds. With a motor putting out three times the horse power of the average economy model. I am just getting technical and posting what I am finding right now to share is all.This motor with said clutch fade ran very powerful with this added weight.http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc400/GoatHerder123123/001.jpg with a back pack...http://motorbicycling.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28652&d=1283392806 and http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc400/GoatHerder123123/004.jpg

The feeler gauge set is the best thing I ever did. I did two blades at a time. First over a block of wood used a tiny drill bit in no hurry! '''be very careful here the drill bit will tear through!'' Used a cone shaped drimmel bit with a fine ''non aggressive'' stone to bore the hole out to fit the shoulder bolts.

Then used needle nose pliers to break them into separate pieces. Just bent them all the way over and pressed tight they snapped clean. Last dressed them up on a bench grinder wheel, all held two at a time. Took about a half hour to make.

I could have brutally wasted these two gauges I got my washers from. They are very brittle. The surgery worked. This is very possible to do, so take your time! If'n somebody wants to try this route??

Now I have to start a log book with notes of what I do! lol... Oh well it is wrote here so far!

Picture of a dimpled clutch stone like I had. Note these two pictures I am share have the KTM hub which is different from the Morini model hub I am using. My clutch hub has the kick-starter linkage attachment on the nut that goes onto the crank and the hub has splines. So no need for a puller. These pictures are of the stones is all.

Last the Grippa style stone surface I am raving over at the moment.

 

[Goat Herder]

Day two mebbe another 30 miles or so of driving. Shoes feel seated in. There is no clutch fade at all, at peak heat soak. Thoughts on it? Not sure what to say? Don't think I can top this right now? Plain am overjoyed. It is the best I've ever had it.. Let one of my toughest critics have a ride on it yesterday with it as hot and heat soaked as it gets. As we have had some heated discussions. Would have had to be a fly on the wall to hear all that. Simply Flawless...

This thing makes one third the noise of a weed whacker at cruise. If I jump on the throttle at a intersection it is loud enough every one knows I am there. The clutch attack dynamic is so phenomenal that all aspects of engine rpm has dropped a bit. Off the line WOT is well

May run into the bevel washer spring dynamic collapsing on a hot day? Dunno? Then again it may match clutch shoe wear? Gonna take it back apart and measure the stacks with a micrometer and decide perhaps? ''Using the old bevel stacks still''

Here is a picture of the bolts size differences. The bolt on the right came from the N.V. J shaft creation and words cant describe how hard this bike was run during testing lol. Tried all kinds of different stacks trying to match the clutch dynamic to a huge span of gearing. Ran this in the end with it ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )... In the end succeed but would never do that again. One chain is all you'll ever need for starters lol. Replacing worn short chains was a regular repetitive deal.

http://youtu.be/q4INNy4zEkkOn a S6T 5.8 stock save clutch was a power robbing from chains, heavy bike and Nuvinci hub. It does not do the Morini justice.. Looked kewl and was fun as heck to ride. Live and learn.. That N.V. hub got sooo hot at one time still got the burn scar on the back of my finger from touching the spoke flange after a long 18 mile hill climb to check it. My skin sizzled. Had to spit on my hand immediately Ayup

The Morini does not need a j shaft at all whatsoever and IMPE is just ''not'' necessary at all!!! There was a craze at the time to try J shafts.. The H.T. was getting them and well did one having never run a Morini stock...''Shrug''

The shinny spots in the picture of that bolt kinda look worse in the picture than the ones that came out of my old air cooled BoXer clutch. The shiny spots on that bolt don't have any wear ridges at all save one spot on the bottom by the threads. Had some vicious, weird, experimental,,,,,, high rpm, ''freaky'' hard hook ups playing with that clutch and washer stacks from the http://www.motomx.com/clutch_information.html lol. While these stacks are still completely alien to me I am still tempted to try something with the longer bolt flange??

The bolt on the left is a new stock Morini clutch bolt from a water cooled model ''same length as my Air cooled dimpled clutch'' That clutch looks much like the Grippa save its has a couple more oil groove cuts in it. My old bolts are assembled in the bike right now..Should have got a picture of them. They had no alarming ridges at all.

Note the difference in the length.

 

[killercanuck]

Sounds like you're getting it dialed exactly where you want it. That bolt on the right attest's to the level of 'stomp' you test with

I'm sure others appreciate the level of detail in your posts. And like you said, its here for your own reference

 

[Goat Herder]

Thanks Killer. This thing is so fun to ride I cannot ever park it for very long. Man I love summer Just mixed my third gallon of premix since this clutch ditty started and set that aside. Yesterday went back over it and did a better inventory of my bevel washers. Only cleaned out the sediment from these old washers once when I had set up the old clutch. Changing my oil in regular intervals kept them pretty clean. Was a bit surprised.

If I was competitively racing or the likes cleaning them would no doubt add a guy a little bit of flavor and edge.

So after a little of the previous ride time I did seating the pads. I opted to take a good look see. Meh what the heck I threw them back in. The washers closest to the clutch action had sediment. So I wiped down all the washers reassembled them back in random order from which they came and road it.

The previous way it ran was set very close, pretty flawless. When I road it all cleaned up again for the first time since reassembly. I had a used china motor in a back pack that I brought to a buddy in need with some extra parts. ''His pooped out'' Crank locked up. Last time was a piston bearing. Poor guy two motors for him and has not made it past 2500 miles. He got my old customized china J shafted motor which had proved to be a great runner!

Any how the clutch hated the extra weight but only from take off. Keep in mind I am engaging a tad little earlier now and everything is new and wear mating in after the bevel wipe down. .. I have it right on the threshold of perfection. So what it did was grab and slip a tiny bit off the line until more rpm was developed. ''That threshold of having enough rpm to swing the clutch stone weight inertia and the thick oil I am running''. It needed about 500 more rpm or so? No biggie and I went clear across town with it. Just babied it a little.

knowing where this thing is at and my hands on experience. I could prolly put a fresh stack in and loose .038mm in shims? It plugs away so good right now just gonna leave it till I am board with it and put fresh clean washers in. I will simply gauge my first estimation by clutch stone wear. From a noted measurement from where it is now with one of the feeler gauges. Or just guess by the currant rpm engagement. Getting pretty good with this set up thing!

A week of riding and its a perfect cargo hauler again. I will be back to carrying sack of potatoes, milk, meat what ever I can gracefully hold. Last and me the ''worst'' cargo. I am a big boy!

Road it this morning with just me on the bike lol.. This is a sweet clutch. The stones came out of my old bike. I chose my currant bell because the thrust washers were set up really nice at the time and the brass bearing was still perfect. . All I got to do now is simply change the oil periodically. Cheers.

Here is a pict of the bike with better forks and the bigger rims.

My L/C waiting at the ready for the next bike build up.

 

[rustycase]

last pic...

Wow!
just look at that engineering, quality machine work and overall nice finish!!!!
Wow!


rc

 

[Goat Herder]

Yeah rusty the engineering, and over all look of these motors are pretty impressive. Was a chunk of change for me to get them too. I think they will work great tho!


The old washers are out of there. Gave them a chance and there was just too much engine braking going on. It got annoying. That part of the over all dynamic just did not rhyme with me.

Will prolly use red lock tight on my crank nut for now on too. Still using blue on the 8ft pound clutch bolts tho. Something happened with the engine braking and the crank nut backed off and came loose. Did not damage anything.. Lucky! Got it fixed up, but was a unneeded distraction. Was a old tube of blue lock tight that had separated a little and I knew better. Think the braking was to much? Did not like the way it sounded at times?

The old bevel's all stacked up next to a new stack of ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( was around .500 mm shorter. After cleaning the old clutch grub, crumbs out from between them it never was the same. So a new stack of the bevels are in it now with just one .254mm flat washer. Running perfect again.

Thinking the bevel stack should wear out gracefully for me and what I am doing with the new stones like the old clutch did. Everything is the same performance wise for the most part now can't really tell much difference. Except mebbe a tiny bit of punch off the line is not quite the same and the red line shift is a tiny bit different. I am done messing with it for now.. It's fast!

Really need to fire up one of these L/C motors. Have had them nearly a year now and done nothing with them. Such is time and money. There not always happening at the same time. lol Getting very close to it tho. Been in the poor house for a while and it's not looking any better.

It's darn nice to at least have a good runner up and going tho. This thing just keeps on ticking. Did the math on my gas savings and this whole thing has payed for itself by now.

 

[Goat Herder]

Guess I will be playing with different oil now too. Cannot afford the high price here locally for the Maxima MTL at the moment.. So went to to 20/50 Castor Oil brand motor oil and the Lucas. Have a whole case to use up. Thinking regular oil changes through the summer will be easy enough at about 275ml . Switched up the oil proportions a little.

Also switch to a smaller flat washer .127mm from .254mm. Can't top it right now. Back to the best I have ever had it. Been on the bike for 5 hours of errands and today was very hot out too. No noticeable clutch fade to complain about ran very strong. Was stalling to high on take off till the washer trade off and had some fade.. Prolly only got about 350 miles on this clutch now. Lets see how long I can leave it alone for now lol. Yes this time I am done Really mean it.

 

[Goat Herder]

Well I am not using the 20/50 Castor Oil brand motor oil it does not say wet clutch approved? Back to Maxima or Belray for me. Need to study all these oil ratings? All can think of is if it don't say on the bottle that it will work in wet clutches? Shoot can't just trust it? Thought about automotive rear differential additives and how they may fit this equation? But really don't know enough about it? Gonna get some more Maxima, Shrug had great luck with it. The bike is getting close to 100 miles to the gallon right now with this clutch if I don't flat out beat on it. If I get on it, it of course sucks a little more fuel. Can afford that lol.

Oh yeah don't slop the lock tight on the three clutch bolts. It will get sucked into the washer stack by the bell area and change the clutch engagement. The first two washers by the bell seam to get filthy regardless. Will not happen right away, you'l be back on the bike the next day going what the heck happened?

Ask me how I know?

Did a quick clutch adjustment when the motor was blazing hot and between burning my hands once or twice well, you know... Also the red lock tight gives nicer when the motor is a little warmer. That seams to always be when my adjustments have been getting done. Kinda like to get after it and 15 minutes later right back on the street.

Just did a different bevel stack tonight in light of keeping my bevel stacks cleaner. Nothing real fancy goes from bolt head ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) then .127mm flat washer at the thread side. Right now got to punch the throttle or the clutch will lock up right away off idle and it stays locked.

Between inevitable washer debris over time, given clutch wear, and spring washer gradual, diminished temperament. Gonna leave it. This stiffened the washer stack and put the stones a tiny bit closer on the bell. Had thought about trying this for a while? It took away some of the excessive engine braking too. Seams to be a nice compromised balance.

Don't have the same breif second power band surge at the upper rpm's ether like it was with the new bevels. It pulls hard right on through. Had always run it with the last bevel facing the clutch hub and the flat washer before.. So this is a new arrangement for me..

One should prolly keep in mind my washer arrangements are for a 45 mile per hour geared bike too? Have not messed with any other gearing for a long while. So don't know?

The bevel washer at the bolt head, wraps around the bolt head a tiny bit and in turn shortens and both stiffens my bevel washer stack. So far noticed from previous experience that the bevel spring washers can loose their temper over time. This is the grand master plan at the moment!

Will report in a few months.. Enough of my rambling lol. There is really no great clutch discussions on the web about these Morini's. The topic seams almost taboo. lol Mebbe this will feed some imaginations?


Gonna keep it under wraps for a while. Don't know if the washer will distort at the bolt head? Heck don't know if it will distort fully and match the clutch wear like the rest of the stack? This 'uns top secrete for a while hehe 99.9% sure it will be perfect !! Pulls really hard right now. Hey just having fun with this thing! Can't have a clue until trying some different stuff? Plus this is a mutt mismatched clutch so to speak. Just learning new things.

Beginning see more now, how for some of these other reported stacks are working too on the higher geared set ups?

My carb is flawless have not even so much as touched the idle screw. There were thoughts mebbe warmer days would make me change the jetting? It is dead on!

Plan is it will be set up to simply leave it alone and not work on it at all for a very long time! Only took the first clutch ''stock'' apart three times during the whole time it got used . Yeah it was a little neglected but shoot it worked great. Just trying to see what different stuff can be done?

 

[Goat Herder]

Here is some oil reading. I suffered through. My head hurts now Did learn a few things!! Was looking for more info on wet clutch oil ratings. Seams the newer automotive oil with a Energy Saver rating is unanimously said not for motorcycles. At All!!

Then there is this Zinc/Phosphorus additive said to be very motorcycle friendly. The newer automotive oil has less Zinc/Phosphorus to lend better service life to catalytic converters.


Can make up your own minds?

I am consistently lent more to the Idea of a heavier weight oil for myself in my own clutch, but that's just me and my own educated guesstimates.. Really cannot say that I am a true doctrine expert in all of this at all.

There is also the idea of the wrong generic motor oil in the clutch foaming up under high RPM and no longer lubricating correctly? I suspect that most oils now days don't foam up so much per-say this may be a old wise tale? Dunno? Have seen in the auto parts stores the clear plexiglass gear displays that show the difference in oil cling tho selling a product. They are always impressive to me.

I would have to do my own studies.. That Could take way too many years. In the end it is a whole lot of the usual potential confusing oil opinions. Oil debates on the internet forums always make my head hurt a lot. But a little bit of reading comprehension always go a long ways. In the end I no more but still know nothing.

My assumptions? This Zinc/Phosphorus additive may play a very important roll in our type clutches?

http://www.google.com/search?q=Zinc...f.,cf.osb&fp=f7acdc60927a537f&biw=933&bih=592


http://www.floridatrailriders.org/articles/techinf3.htm


http://www.wisegeek.com/can-i-put-oil-for-a-car-into-my-motorcycle.htm
http://www.venturerider.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-57122.html
http://www.cbxclub.com/timoil.html
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=704662&page=2

 

[Goat Herder]

Wow this was quick! My verdict is up on the Morini USA Grippa brand clutch hub stones. There is no doubt in my mind at this point that they are? Gotta be genuine Chinese IMHO. Does not do the detailed brilliant machine work of a Genuine Morini any real comparable justice IMHO.

Can put a genuine Morini brass bushing into a Morini USA Grippa bell and use it. http://www.morinifrancousa.com/s6parts.html But it does not fit super snug.. Thought that was a bit of a bummer and always bothered me. They don't offer anything to fix it that at all ether. No brass bushings available. Cannot get any replacement bevel shoulder bolts . The needle cage bearing one might get is for another model engine too and will not work so I hear on this forum.. Gotta source your own. Also they do not offer any thrust washers of any kind. the Grippa bell has no brass bushing when you get it..That is how it was when purchasing my only Grippa clutch from them and these questions were polity, adamantly asked!! lol

Here is one reason why I am thinking Chinese? The two dowel style pins that are supposed to go in and out of the steel clutch hub are all pot medal or something? Checked them with a magnet and is ferris . Yes this is how worn they look. Thought at first they were part of the aluminum casting. Truly this pitted at the moment.

Between these stones been used in the other bike and then this one well? The metal pins are just smooth wore the heck out and severely gouged right where they try to pivot. They have way to much play in them to me.

All my stock known Genuine Morini stones embodiments have two nice, more proper, extra long steel dowels and their clutch hub holes are tighter too. This makes for a precession clutch IMHO. '''No signs at all of this said pivoting problem ever'''

Did not notice before but the Grippa ''hub'' has bigger holes to it for their dowel pins to glide in and out of. ''Sweet to add insult to injury'' and compound a terrible problem design IMO. This is not a set it and leave it clutch like this! Could get a race day???

May try a new set of Grippa stones again? Only out of desperation.. Gonna sort out what fits better right off the bat fo sho tho.. Much rather have genuine Morini or a hole shot clutch. http://www.tomarengineering.com/

Saying this because the old genuine stock Morini clutch stone steel dowels have absolutely no gouges what so ever any where .. They look like day one. Immaculate condition. See picture below. Morini on the right..

Here is what I think can happen? The stones could get caulked wrong in the bell over time? Mebbe? Dunno? But don't like it! If it last long enough to wear the stones out? I think there will be enough play for it? Because the shorter dowels just don't hold everything square when it is working. Also explains the pretty brutal premature gouge wear on the two metal dowels? Bad leverage is already doing bad things. IMHO.

I cleaned out metal particulates out of the bevel washers on two occasions ''Grippa'' when the clutch had been dialed in absolutely flawlessly. Just two days of riding and all the bevel washer grinding going on inside the clutch stone cast metal cavity from the sloppy medal dowel pins filled the bevel washers with metal again. This in turn raises the clutch stall quite a bit.

Good news for me tho, at least had a brand new genuine ''Morini'' complete clutch hub and stones on stand by. This one looks like the Grippa, kinda. It has more oil grooves and the stones them selves are just a tiny bit less thick. Betcha the clutch stall does not go out of whack in just two days of riding now! Also there was a tiny chip developing in one of the stones as well on the Grippa . They were old stones that had been in two different bikes..and was pretty brutal on the first bike..not to mention the second one, and warrantied once when one of the stone backings had come off with the first bike. That was my fault tho..

When it was dialed in, it hit damn hard! Just a shame its is not satisfactory to me? Suppose could have used a drimel to make better way for no washer rub, in the clutch stone cast medal embodiment, where the washer stack resides?

There still lies one problem.... The medal dowel pins have big honking gouges in them. They are too short in length in my opinion. They will not hold square! So the over all leverage is just completely wrong on them numbering their days I think? Last using their stock longer clutch bolt only means more washers are present to simply dig in and brutally gouge away IMO. It is eventually gonna fall into them regardless as has been my experience..


This also explains why when I had cleaned up my original genuine Morini clutch bevels once. Did not have to do it again. Why? The washers where ever they had rubbed when the clutch broke in, cleared it's own space once and for all.. They never rubbed again because the real nice, long, steel dowel pins never gave or remotely ever wore out . This to me it is just a better precision clutch over all.

Could try a better picture in the day time? On the right is my old A/C BoXer stone

I am using Sportscarpet's and Itchybird's 5 bevel arrangement right now. ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) then my flat washers . I think it will settle in and work pretty good!! It tries right now to blast off the line strong and other times the clutch comes on too soon and locks up. Have to punch the throttle from a stop..

Road it again and it is already getting better. Wondering if the stones bodies are rattling tho? Have to give more thought to it? Just did another late night ride and the G force panic feel of the bike at red line is the strongest yet. But off the line mebbe needs more work?

Still using my original bell. Compared it to a new one and it looks very satisfactory.. Sure it has a complete new life cycle of stone use left in it.

Briefly tried my old Caster oil 20/50 GTX red cap I had lying around from my left over case.. It foamed up bad enough to come out of the clutch breather hole and made a mess on the bike. Made the clutch slip too. Would say has the wrong type of friction modifier in it. Picked up some more Beray was the store closest to me.

Just look at the nice lengthy dowel guide pins on this clutch.. http://youtu.be/UhOeIOF-3BU

 

[Goat Herder]

A full blown hard, test run clear across town again just like has always been done from the start with each stack test. Absolutely no metal flecks of crap this time. The bevel washers were completely spotless. The said stack I ran and posted last night was flat washer / / shimmed at .254mm and a .127mm. Could have improved on that but had to revisit another test stack that seamed promising?

It never got better on the low end the bike ran like a china until I waited for the rpm's to build up then of course it was very wicked strong on today's test run. Can speculate that with higher gearing that clutch might have unlocked at lower rpm with a throttle snap and did the progression thing it is supposed to do? Perhaps it would have matched that gearing better? Dunno? As was not tuning for that..


So today I have just put it at ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( with the ( facing the bolt head. Bike does everything I expect it to do again. The hole shot from a dead stop is great and as quick as It has ever been in all my testing. Bike cruses, launches, everything! Ayup as slow as 5 mph.

Another thought for a desperate stack shim / ? because this is may be my favorite arrangement now? Will be trying this on a brand new clutch soon. Well mebbe?
'' W/C'' .. Is to perhaps sneak a / between the flat sides of two bevel washers? (/). Might be a bad Idea? It's a thought anyway. leggos .

This washer stack took up most of the slack that was present with last nights stack. Had slack where the shoe castings mounted to the hub could rattle? Sounds a little more quiet now. Think I can hear it sometimes? The ( at the bolt head can still act like a spring too. There is no shims in this present stack.

Thoughts? One observation.. well at the bottom of the stone castings there is a slight bevel shape that greets the round curved side of the bevel washer. Does not sit all the way in engulfing the bevel washer's radius so to speak it is a very slight fit. Looks promising! Time will tell?


Thinking will be weeks this time around before I examine anything. Got nothing to nit pick now. Having very good faith in this arrangement.
All I got to do now is ride baby!

 

[Goat Herder]

Going to set the Lucas aside for a while and use plain Belray or Maxima for now. The 20/50 GTX changed my way of thinking just a bit?

Edit:


OK Here is the thing I think the Lucas might make it slip? I talked to a local guy at a motorcycle shop and he told me that the KTM bikes come from the factory with the equivalent of 10 weight Dextron 2 transmission fluid. This puzzled me and of course mentioned what I was using. He was adamant about it and sounded sincere.

http://www.ktm-parts.com/pdf/TechBull/TB0802.pdf

Note..KTM's constantly have different washer stacks so far than any of my Morini's came stock with?? ''The longer shoulder bolt''.. Say's something here about winter summer too. I think 3 degrees fahrenheit verses 100 still has a role to play.. The more I look every one brags up the Maxima.. and there was something called two2cool. Also say's that SS bevel washers have a stiffer yield strength all the way through their stroke. . http://www.docstoc.com/docs/80829441/3-Shoe-KTM-Clutch-Basics

ATF F?

http://www.motosport.com/dirtbike/MOTOREX-ATF-SUPER-TRANSMISSION-FLUID

http://www.xcellube.com/specs/trans.pdf

This is the shop that the Belray got purchased from. Of course after reading about oil for hours had some fancy questions. This got me thinking? So I implemented for kicks a hint of ATF Dextron and Lucas into the Belray mix. Started off with the Belray and ATF. Everything lovey dovy. Ran it for the amount of time that things would normally come out filthy when draining it. It looked really clean. Was not burnt at all yet, and metallic flakes were not present.

ATF has some of the best anti varnish detergents ever. This means no gummed up goo can form in the washer stacks with regular oil changes. Pretty sure it has great anti foaming agents as well. Its made for clutches. Sounds great to me at the moment and the clutch is working perfect!!

I added a guess squirt of Lucas into the clutch fill hole and thought it might be slipping? Prolly my imagination and bet I put way too much? Will have to study things more over a prolonged period of time. Ran the motor and prolly just sheared it? ''Lucas'' Just did another 10 mile run and cannot improve on anything at all right now. Does everything I want it to do! Perfect at the moment... and there is no said clutch fade....

Need to get mebbe more Maxima? Starting to hear in links it run's cooler??

I still have to read all this myself ATM but it looks interesting. Granted this is a KTM clutch and a tad different a lot applies here!! http://www.ktmamerica.com/clutch_article.htm

Quote: To space the shoes out add a maximum of 1mm of shims (see parts info in engine section of your parts book..

These sound like a shim I may want for the stones and my currant loose play gap at the clutch hub?

Seams that the oil weight ratings are like this from everywhere I hear? 20/50 weight motor oil is equivalent to say 85 weight Belray. Some folks are using Valvoline 20/50 weight and what not. List goes on....http://www.google.com/search?q=What...fficial&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np

KTM bible http://mxridersau.7.forumer.com/a/ktm-50-bible_post15.html

http://www.extremeforum.net/ktm-50-sx-clutch-set-up-6190613.html

 

[Goat Herder]

Wanted to add that the few of times I went back together with my clutch I started using red lock tight on all of it... I got a big bottle that has General Motors labeled on on. Don't really think that brand matters?

Checked around a bit and I am definitely not the only one using all red lock tight on these beasts.

I play hot potato and take it apart when the motor is warmed up. Has not fought me one bit dissembling so far.. Also noticed that I wanted it to set up a little. Just my own voodoo observations that I've developed? Would assemble everything and Idled the motor just for a few when I was very impatient about things on all my go around's. Nothing fancy never road the bike. Just wanted some flash heat soak on the hardware. Then let it set for about an hour up to four Hours. Pored in my oil and road like I stole it.

Observed the thread locker did not look disappeared and dissolve this way.. because the hot clutch oil proved was capable of getting into the treads!

I think all lock tight in general needs about 24 hours to cure to full strength. This has been consistent with everywhere I've read.. Simply go to bed and sleep on it. Which I have a very hard time doing! lol


http://www.ehow.com/how_5201363_remove-loctite-bolts.htm

Been doing a consistent practice of brake clean and clean up of threads etc, with pick tools and the like on everything in general before every reassembly. Also in my own observations have been tacking my threads by assembling wiping any extra off and or adding more lock tight. Note this prolly helped me when I had never let anything set up very long.

What I began to notice on my ultra quick wham bam 15 minute adjustments, was that the lock tight would partially dissolve in the hot oil. Having never gave it a chance to set up at all and immediately hitting the road again... This was observed consistently on my crank nut. This left a bad impression on me.

Switching things up to let it try to harden a bit had a way better impression on me. I will start red lock tightening everything on all my clutches for now on but that's me..

I know I teased Easy Rider about the red grade once..I know more better about what he was doing now, and exactly why. I did have a crank nut back off that resulted in some fine file work on my crank threads. While it totally survived, and is still readily serviceable. Was lucky! Well you know. That was fun!

Nothing to report on my currant clutch/stack set up and doubt there will be. This should run for months and what I am doing. Just wanted share observations with the thread locker!!

 

[killercanuck]

once you're happy with it, Green Locktite is the permanent stuff. You'll need a jackhammer to get that off, so be careful with it.

 

[Goat Herder]

once you're happy with it, Green Locktite is the permanent stuff. You'll need a jackhammer to get that off, so be careful with it.

The thing of it is Killer.... the red lock tight is serviceable in my application. I am currently happy with my clutch and it will not come apart unless I need it to. Green lock tight would not be.. Some one will have problems with that?

I mean Blue worked for the first clutch. Red is one grade above. I am not having any problems with anything what so ever coming loose except for the said quick adjustments that were done recently. I suspect many folks don't know the practical uses of this stuff?
http://www.google.com/url?q=http://...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNF55GmuZpnX_zjf5bdZVdJqDiUnnw
Might read this link it will help ?

There are days of reading on this subject. http://www.google.com/search?q=how ...fficial&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np

The little clutch bolts are only rated for 8 foot pounds of torque. When the parts are hot in my hands they come apart OK the last two times. The threads in this application are all steel. Red may very be over kill here? I will play hot potato for now it's been working fine for me..

Should really go back to blue here because it was never an issue at any time the more I think about it. ''shrug'' I got extra hubs and bolts. So what the heck.

When I worked as a professional ASE certified mechanic there were many times that stuff got assembled and immediately ran, shipped right out the door and never had an issue. Like the one little bolt in Chevy rear axles and Fords etc. Their is an application for it in aluminum intake plenums so the threads seal and there will be no vacuum leaks. Good stuff!

My experience with this clutch, hands on is all of why I do anything for the most part.

I used a cheep pair of Chinese plyer handles to hold my clutch when tightening/loosing it. Don't have to wait for my shop air compressor to air up.. The handles with the insulators pulled off, hold the clutch still really well while I take the crank nut out. With a wrench angled through them to hold the clutch still. It could very well be the nut was not properly tightened that day. As the two wrenches could have incidentally rested into each other?

The crank nut is rated for 20 foot pounds.. Another thing to note is if I had just left it alone to set up properly, it only needed a drop on two threads so to speak.. Alas I don't play that way..

A few lines down here red lock tight for a crank nut..
http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/805856-ktm-50/
Step 4 here in the clutch procedure says red lock tight on the crank nut..
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...QOPm27&sig=AHIEtbSm7ebM43J-dMqC4Dgx_S0ZJtQTeA

Might fix something desperate on a Happy Time lol. Ah no not really

 

[Goat Herder]

Ayup one more time lol. Clutch hit great! Maintained a very pleasant hole shot..after a couple of days thought mebbe it was lacking grab in the wot area? After looking for these said shims. ''the slack at the stone casting bodies and the hub'' All Google would turn up was bevel washers. I could never find them? If somebody has a link? Sure would like to have it! As looking for them drove me batty!

http://www.ktmamerica.com/clutch_article.htm

Any how. After how the sloppy stones fit with the dowels and the Grippa brand stones. Found all these links.. One of which said in a KTM set guide that the difference between drum and shoes should be no less than 1.5mm, no more than 2.0mm. Did me some sweet bench grinder engineering. The hand that it dealt me gave. .813mm gap.

Had to make my washers to slightly shim the three stock Morini clutch bolts out to get away with new experimental stack of ( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) (/ ) ( ) .

(/)at the bolt thread side.The Kewl part! This gives me fine tunability again. Got lucky too as when the stack bolts cinched up had my favorite amount of preload. Just very minutely slight. Can crack the bolt loose and get a very minute amount of play trying to twist the shoes. Have no freaking idea how that got pulled off..

Awesome part I can very easily do this washer creation again..



After one washer shim added to it another episode of perfection. This time the clutch stones rattling at idle will never mess with my imagination again. This is the most precision I know how to do with my currant resources.

I used a old screw driver that was converted to a scratch all to twirl 3 washers on the grinder. Messed up up 4 washers figuring out how to do it too. Came up with dipping the screw driver in oil so that the inside hole would not enlarge too much while narrowing the outside to fit in the bottom of the three stone casting cavities.. Last used a drimel to split the difference ''clearance wise'' for the outside edge washer clearance at the bottom of the said cavity .

My full round of red loctite on the hardware proved forgiving again..

pifft Now I am done

Picture say's the rest. Cannot quite tell but there is 6 little washers on all of the metal dowels shimming the stones out. Last 3 homemade clutch bolt shims..

This bike officially scares the crap out of me now!! This clutch will pull gearing for 60 miles an hour if I wanna...EASY..OFF THE LINE FAST.. Has no engine braking problems ether! Lessen learned for me???

I shall even custom shim out my new clutches from here on out as that gap looked to small to me? When eyeballing it? Done deal end of story period. This in no way can be topped... This is the money shot of accumulated hands on and reading like my carby. Like I said when I started rambling I was gonna find it and I did!!!!!!!!

 

[Goat Herder]

Today I opted to to detune the clutch a little. Wanted room to grow on where it could just be naturally allowed to wear in. The original set it and leave it plan.. Changed the stack timing with a different bolt shim. Did not touch the stacks. It came close. Had to measure it with a feeler gauge but the bolts heads still sit very flush with the stones. = no touchy on the bell ever, as I perceive and has not at all so far.. This came out very doable and still have a smidgeon of preload.

Note the previous Grippa had longer bolt flanges. It's funny after all this time I am back to this old stack of 6 coupled bevels..

What I had today hit hard everywhere nice and would still cruise.. Had zero engine brake on the clutch. Kinda like to have a bit of engine brake there myself just need the right amount. So re-timing by way of bolt shims and leaving the stacks alone did the trick...



Man this motor with no engine brake takes a really long time to idle down off redline. Could not believe how smooth it was.

Will look on line for specialty washers some more. This one is done for now..

 

[Goat Herder]

OK so far my two personal favorite bevel configurations after much thought and reflection are the 6 coupled bevels and the 5 1/2,, fine tuned with shims at the stacks. It is still a toss up between the two. The 5 1/2 might be more better for somebody? Better engine brake mebbe? I run about a 40 mile an hour bike with a 250 pound rider. Gonna run this present clutch for a long while and study everything over time..

I suppose there is always another stack out there? These have made the best impression on me out of all the compiled stuff I have done.

Setting up, shimming the stones out to greet the bell for proper bell clearance has as a important roll to play here as have found as well as shimming the clutch bolts for me. This has proven essential. IMOE & IMHO

Went through the garage and my 20 year collections and found stuff that I made my own shims with. Worked perfect for this round. Soon will have my own inventory lol

Other than my personal need for fancy shims thicknesses.. this is no more mystery to me than an automobile drum brake. A lot like the old time drum brakes in cars. Same logic applies. I was starting to get a bit of leading side edge shoe wear on the Grippa stones? i think just like in a drum brake that was a little sloppy in adjusted tolerances. Those extra long dowels make things right IMOE & IMHO. My old stock stones actually wore remarkably even and the dowels stayed totally cherry..

This little shim kit that KTM supposedly should have? Have had no luck finding it so far? Don't really care tho at this point although still pretty bummed about it.. Proved to my self that its absolutely possible to make it work at my own means so far. It really was not that hard once figured out what was going on and how this pig was acting..

Oh yeah those ultra thin feeler gouges I carved out? Eventually fell apart. Were hella thin and proved not necessary. '' Very brittle'' Thought it lent imagination tho.. The shims for the clutch bolts at the thread hub side came from...... wait for it? Plumbers tape drilled out out to fit tight as possible then wet my fingers and dressed them up at the bench grinder lol.

Made them into perfect cute little round washers. Last the three little washers I twirled out of harder steel and currently face the clutch bolt. . Not super proud of those as ultimate perfection goes.,but hey it is all cinched up and working perfect stacked together. Where there is a will there is a way. Will later measure it and get a kit going of more better material. Shrug

Those clutch bolts at the thread flange side are not a run of the mill washer dimension that was simply lying around this garage. Rather than spend some money at the hardware store at the moment it was better for me to carve those out and quietly reflect on what was going on. Shrug


Really wanted to try to get this clutch as tight as I could possibly get it and do think it will prove over time to be the best one yet.. Currently have the black colored bevels. [paint looks like gun bluing] So I would say they are the carbon steel washer variety. From what I think I know? The stainless will not be black in color, but silver?

Wanted to add that instead of riding the bike to check my clutch out this last few rounds I got into a habit of starting the bike up and simply blipping the throttle a couple of times before even adding oil yet. Nothing fancy just that getting my engagement point started to become really easy and obvious to figure out right away. If it was wrong then a quick stack shim and it would all get cinched up nice.

Over time will add some links when stumbling upon them.. Mcmaster has a massive inventory of stuff!
http://www.google.com/search?q=mags...or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=b001bd3a40637c26
http://www.mcmaster.com/#
http://www.accutrex.com/stampings_and_washers.html