Old Guys V twin & sidecar
- Thread starter indian22
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I wondered myself if the new forum screened the views better. Your absolutely right Harold.
Steve
Steve
I surf and research a lot and Google has sometimes asked me to prove I'm not a bot. I don't think I am.
Will humans, one day, be actually required a virtual passport to routinely enter the world web or to acquire one day visas for visits? With our physical travels being more & more restricted by "agencies" does it not follow that our keepers are even more interested in regulating our intellectual abilities to assemble and disseminate? I'd suggest more than just the groundwork has already been laid & we are closer to "then" than to "when".
I ordered a 32 tooth sprocket to replace the 27 tooth in order to fit the 3 hole hub adapter on the drive side, as the three hole pattern required to bolt to the sprocket was into the teeth, close but to close. If you recall I'm using two 3 hole hub adapters on the rear hub mounted back to back. One side holds the rear disk rotor and adapter in place and the other will be used for securing the sprocket assembly in concert with the hubs 6 hole disk rotor pattern. The 6 bolt pattern uses 5 mm x 12 mm grade 11 fasteners, which though fine for smaller motors, I'll not trust for 20 hp +. The two hub adapters of course can't be fitted back to back, the hub is too narrow to allow assembly, but by removing the sprocket adapters bolt stands on the sprocket side adapter they just fit. I will need to drill and tap the body of the hub adapter to accept the three 3/8" NC 16 bolts. Three all thread connectors will provide the correct standoff between sprocket and adapter. Then the two back to back hub adapters will be bolted together as a solid unit.
This design eliminates the possibility of the hub adapters ever spinning into the spokes under power or breaking. I also machined a full width aluminum insert for the hub body which is press fitted and not only strengthens the hub during operation but also prevents any distortion of the hub due to torque while mounting the twin hub adapters.
This rear will be solid and still look more bicycle than motorcycle. Small, clean and simple appearance are among my design goals for every bike I build. Rick C.
Rick C.
I ordered a 32 tooth sprocket to replace the 27 tooth in order to fit the 3 hole hub adapter on the drive side, as the three hole pattern required to bolt to the sprocket was into the teeth, close but to close. If you recall I'm using two 3 hole hub adapters on the rear hub mounted back to back. One side holds the rear disk rotor and adapter in place and the other will be used for securing the sprocket assembly in concert with the hubs 6 hole disk rotor pattern. The 6 bolt pattern uses 5 mm x 12 mm grade 11 fasteners, which though fine for smaller motors, I'll not trust for 20 hp +. The two hub adapters of course can't be fitted back to back, the hub is too narrow to allow assembly, but by removing the sprocket adapters bolt stands on the sprocket side adapter they just fit. I will need to drill and tap the body of the hub adapter to accept the three 3/8" NC 16 bolts. Three all thread connectors will provide the correct standoff between sprocket and adapter. Then the two back to back hub adapters will be bolted together as a solid unit.
This design eliminates the possibility of the hub adapters ever spinning into the spokes under power or breaking. I also machined a full width aluminum insert for the hub body which is press fitted and not only strengthens the hub during operation but also prevents any distortion of the hub due to torque while mounting the twin hub adapters.
This rear will be solid and still look more bicycle than motorcycle. Small, clean and simple appearance are among my design goals for every bike I build. Rick C.
Rick C.
Thank God that day is not here yet! The more thieves, and scan artist the sooner it will be.
Your hub sounds good, just need some shots of it for confirmation, Were do you get the 11 grade bolts?...........Curt
Your hub sounds good, just need some shots of it for confirmation, Were do you get the 11 grade bolts?...........Curt
Curt I found a vendor on ebay...there were several, entered 5 mm socket head fastener in the search bar, but I'm sure that I've sourced them at Fasten all in the past.
I'll pull all the hub parts, except the internal hub re-enforcement & bearings & take photos as I assemble the whole affair. That should 'splain the thang. It will be a few days before the final bits are in hand. I knew going into this that doing a drive wheel this way would complicate construction, but I wanted the disc rotor as far away from the drive chain as possible. I'd planned to have a hub laced up on a dual rotor hub like the front wheel with the 6 bolt rotor pattern on both sides of the hub but it didn't get done that way. I also thought about using a front wheel dual rotor hub on the rear, but that would have required a re-lace of the wheel to get the dishing I required and my swing axle would have been much wider than I wanted it to be. The dual, rotor ready front hub is considerably wider than the rear, single rotor hub. I know running a moped wheel and drum would have been the simple approach, but I like the stopping power of the disc & it's ease of maintenance compared to the drum setup.
I've got some good weather coming up but need to use most of it for glazing windows and painting same, plus scraping and painting some trim work. Should have it completed it earlier this Fall but health didn't permit. Next time I'll hire it done as I'm probably getting to old for that kinda stuff & I'd rather fiddle with my wheeled toys!
Rick C.
I'll pull all the hub parts, except the internal hub re-enforcement & bearings & take photos as I assemble the whole affair. That should 'splain the thang. It will be a few days before the final bits are in hand. I knew going into this that doing a drive wheel this way would complicate construction, but I wanted the disc rotor as far away from the drive chain as possible. I'd planned to have a hub laced up on a dual rotor hub like the front wheel with the 6 bolt rotor pattern on both sides of the hub but it didn't get done that way. I also thought about using a front wheel dual rotor hub on the rear, but that would have required a re-lace of the wheel to get the dishing I required and my swing axle would have been much wider than I wanted it to be. The dual, rotor ready front hub is considerably wider than the rear, single rotor hub. I know running a moped wheel and drum would have been the simple approach, but I like the stopping power of the disc & it's ease of maintenance compared to the drum setup.
I've got some good weather coming up but need to use most of it for glazing windows and painting same, plus scraping and painting some trim work. Should have it completed it earlier this Fall but health didn't permit. Next time I'll hire it done as I'm probably getting to old for that kinda stuff & I'd rather fiddle with my wheeled toys!
Rick C.
I'm probably getting to old for that kinda stuff & I'd rather fiddle with my wheeled toys! Me to hard to do with rotater-cuff in both shoulders. Back is getting fixed now then new right shoulder, be half good.LOL
Just a couple shots of finished or close to it i can see what is going on, Caterpillar dealers have grade 10 bolts. Did you know you can ship things through Fasten all, as long as the is one close to the destination............Curt
Just a couple shots of finished or close to it i can see what is going on, Caterpillar dealers have grade 10 bolts. Did you know you can ship things through Fasten all, as long as the is one close to the destination............Curt
Dang Curtis I thought I had shoulder problems! I've never shipped that way from Fasten all, but glad to know it's an option. I have a location about 30 miles away so it's not too difficult to stop by, but some stuff they have to order in from other locations or from a wholesale distributor. I will take post some photos as well.
Enjoy Thanksgiving guys! Rick C
Enjoy Thanksgiving guys! Rick C
Same to you, big day with the game and all. Check with them its a hole lot cheaper to ship especially if it is big.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL..................Curt
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL..................Curt
Will do Curt. Today is work on the house weather, but tomorrow temps are going to drop And I'll work on the bikes some. I'm hoping the sprocket will arrive Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll have to drill the sprocket for the three hub adapter holes as well as the 6 holes for the special sprocket to disc brake mount and 6 additional holes for the disc rotor pattern. That's a lot of holes, but the rotary table makes quick work of it. I'm increasing the 27 t sprocket to a 32 tooth, which if my math is correct will increase the diameter of the sprocket below the teeth from 4" to 4.75" & that 3/4" will give me plenty of chain clearance & additional strength as well...locating holes too close to an edge is weak design.
Ok Curtis the photos show the two sides of the wheel with one 3 hole hub adapter installed on the disc rotor side. The loose parts shown in the other photo shows the 3 hole brake rotor adapter plate. The remaining parts are for the drive side of the wheel. The 3 hole hub adapter shown will eventually have the 3 standoffs machined off flush with the main clamp surfaces, this allows the mounting of both hub adapters back to back on the hub. The larger of the two sprockets will be drilled with an additional 9 holes (three 3/8" holes on the perimeter of the sprocket for the hub adapter bolt up and an additional 6 holes, see the hole pattern in the smaller sprocket for position and size,these secure the odd looking sprocket spacer to the sprocket) the small sprocket may also be utilized as an additional spacer if required and if so I'll machine the teeth from that spacer before using. By using the 4" big tire rear triangle for the basis of my swing arm; I'll have plenty of room for large tires, chain & stay clearance.
I apologize for the tedious posts regarding the rear setup for this build, but think some will gain insight into my (and some might conclude unnecessary) complex solutions to this rear wheel setup. Rick C.
Thought I'd explain my use of a fat tire frame to set up my fork and rear wheel dimensions. The fork has been widened to 5.5" from 4", at this point all thread, and various spacers and nuts hold everything in place, by adjusting the nuts I can vary the width & keep everything square at the same time. Final fork width sizing will take place when I mount/adjust the rotor, caliper and tab. My guess is about 5" final drop width +-. I plan on running 2.5" tires front and rear.
The rear triangle is 5.5" at the drops as well. & I intend to use this dimension for my swing axle. I'll need custom brake tabs for the caliper to reach the rotor. The good news is plenty of clearance for tires, chain. Stays are out of the way. Rick C.
The rear triangle is 5.5" at the drops as well. & I intend to use this dimension for my swing axle. I'll need custom brake tabs for the caliper to reach the rotor. The good news is plenty of clearance for tires, chain. Stays are out of the way. Rick C.
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WOW! Looking good, like were you are going with this....................Curt
Looks fantastic Rick. Nice way to widen the forks to get the width you need for the wheel and tire. The rear triangle is perfect.
Steve.
Steve.
Thanks Steve. I should have clarified that only the rear triangle of the fat tire bike frame is to be used on the V twin & even that will see substantial modification in the process. None of the frame forward of the seat tube and bottom bracket will be used in the finished frame, but I'll continue to use this frame as a roller to hold components in place while I work out exact parts placements and relationships fore and aft. Also having the fork and triangle fully assembled on a roller helps me visualize proportions and visual presentation. This bike will be really low and long when completed and I've already discovered that the front tire size will need to be increased to 2.5" width and that I can run a longer rear shock as well & gain another inch of swing arm travel.
About 16" of stretch would be necessary with this roller frame to mount the Virago 5 speed V twin & that helps in my visualization of the completed frame...it's a process lol.
About 16" of stretch would be necessary with this roller frame to mount the Virago 5 speed V twin & that helps in my visualization of the completed frame...it's a process lol.
I should log on to the forum more often since I just now found this thread and that makes me wonder what else I've been missing. I knew the site looked different, but didn't know about the simplified photo posting. Simple is good. Rick, your bike is going to be wonderful and I'm looking forward to the sidecar addition. My own building activities are pretty much on hold, but when Fasteddy finds his way to bike camp next summer we're going to make some sparks again. His tri-car should be done by then and maybe we can get mine far enough along to go for a tri-car ride through the forest. Woohoo! I do still have four gas bikes in my apartment living room to stare at over coffee and recently I was given a quad bike (called a "pedalcoupe" and is no longer made) with electric assist. I'll try posting a photo
to see how that works. I think eventually the electric motor will be upgraded to 48 volt so that it will become a pedal assist electric bike. I maybe could use the exercise pedaling, but thanks anyway. Before I sign off, I'd love to see a build thread for Pete's Morgan inspired machine. Love those three wheeled Morgans. They make such nice Christmas presents.
Been scarce on the forum in part due to courting (that's what it used to be called) a nice lady in Wisconsin. "Be still my beating heart". At 73 I'm just glad my heart's still beating. Happy to sign on to your thread, Rick.
SB
Been scarce on the forum in part due to courting (that's what it used to be called) a nice lady in Wisconsin. "Be still my beating heart". At 73 I'm just glad my heart's still beating. Happy to sign on to your thread, Rick.
SB
Thanks SB & so good to hear from you. Courting huh? That explains a lot. I'm glad you are surrounding yourself with artwork builds and a new toy as well. As you can see I still like beginning my builds in the comfort of my home, while they are still nice and clean, but once fuel and oil are added...they are out of here!
For those of us that follow the Tadpole thread that you began and Steve co authors, the progress toward next Summer's bike camp is exciting as is the journey of the two builds.
Keep dreaming & building toys. I've been accused by some of regressing to my childhood due to my interest in bicycles, but that's not an accurate appraisal. I'm not regressing, but I am completing projects first conceived in childhood & still having fun! Rick C.
For those of us that follow the Tadpole thread that you began and Steve co authors, the progress toward next Summer's bike camp is exciting as is the journey of the two builds.
Keep dreaming & building toys. I've been accused by some of regressing to my childhood due to my interest in bicycles, but that's not an accurate appraisal. I'm not regressing, but I am completing projects first conceived in childhood & still having fun! Rick C.
Brakes front and rear spaced & mounted along with spring loaded tensioner and oil tank for housing some of the electric components. Fasteners will be replaced with correct hardware in proper lengths. Rick C.
In a conversation with Curtis I realized how easy it is to post a photo & expect others to make sense of it.Lots of steps and missteps are omitted in most posts mine included, but I'd like to clarify that though I'm using a heavy duty (for bicycles) rear triangle (7/8" steel tube on seat and chain stays) and really robust steel forks; even they are getting major upgrades in strength as I go forward. This is after not really a bicycle with a motor but an actual small motorcycle build with 20 + hp and the bike weighing in at around 200 lbs. without the sidecar so what's overkill for a 6 hp 80 lb. motobike is really necessary on this V twin. A step I haven't mentioned is the rear triangle stays will be shortened 3" plus to narrow the air space/gap between the "oil tank" box and tire and also to keep the final drive chain as short as possible. This should also help keep my completed wheelbase to 58" or 59".
The combination of rear suspension and a side car also add some significant problems to the dynamics of this design. I'm also planning on completing this V twin at home using simple hand tools and not relying on my use of shop mill or lathe...just as I did with the Harley "Peashooter" build. I'd like to show with these two fabrications that even fairly complex builds can be done without a lot of resources. These and the Simplex (which was built in the shop) are not what I would term micro budget or beginner projects, but those with some background in fabrication can complete some amazing creations and coupled with some investment of time and creative scrounging of parts that can be re-purposed to fit needs & lower costs...result in a quality bike.
I also realize that showing photos of a frame that is only used for holding parts in position while assembly is taking place makes visualization of a much longer and lower completed frame difficult to picture, but that would be the case if I had all components mounted in a jig. Bear with my process as I fill in the missing pieces & all becomes clearer.
A guy asked me how I was feeling today and I replied "old & happy". Rick C.
The combination of rear suspension and a side car also add some significant problems to the dynamics of this design. I'm also planning on completing this V twin at home using simple hand tools and not relying on my use of shop mill or lathe...just as I did with the Harley "Peashooter" build. I'd like to show with these two fabrications that even fairly complex builds can be done without a lot of resources. These and the Simplex (which was built in the shop) are not what I would term micro budget or beginner projects, but those with some background in fabrication can complete some amazing creations and coupled with some investment of time and creative scrounging of parts that can be re-purposed to fit needs & lower costs...result in a quality bike.
I also realize that showing photos of a frame that is only used for holding parts in position while assembly is taking place makes visualization of a much longer and lower completed frame difficult to picture, but that would be the case if I had all components mounted in a jig. Bear with my process as I fill in the missing pieces & all becomes clearer.
A guy asked me how I was feeling today and I replied "old & happy". Rick C.