Oh no, I never said it was dead, - websites like this one are the proof of that, - but you must admit that 'lowtech make do' is a lot more rare than it used to be.
Velocars and other interesting vehicles.
- Thread starter Intrepid Wheelwoman
- Start date
heh, I tend to prefer a "low tech make do" approach sprinkled with the occasional hi tech shiny thing 
Yes I agree Steve the world would indeed be a better place with two more versions of the blue car in it
I turned my mind inside out with imagining hacksawing and gluing together two wornout Villiers engines into a wee V twin with 'winky' fake valve rockers before deciding that I had more important things to do with my time like actually building a velocar in the first place.
A fellow winky valve conspirator. I think it is very doable but you need the actual motor bits in hand to do it. Nothing I love better than a challenge.
I thought making a fake crankcase would be the better way out and placing the cylinders on that.
I will be working on the velocar frame as soon as the garage is done and put away. I'm going to use angle iron that I have thanks to Silverbear and I raiding the town tipping station. Large summer crowd there and when they go back home at the end of it, it's a tip dancers delight.
I say that because all you see is a bunch of the lads balancing in amongst the pile like a bunch of ballerinas picking out the choice bits. Sort of Swan Lake'ish since the Rat King always gets what you wanted.
I plan to bolt a plywood floor to it with the proper cut outs for the rear wheel and pedals and a plywood frame with ribs to attach a 1/4 inch luan skin to it using a really good construction ahesive and staples/nails.
Thinking for me a hub motor or a wheel chair motor geared to provide about 30 mph top end. The law says 20 but given the drivers we have here and the narrow shoulders it would be best to be able to get out of the way if you can.
Many off our drivers who now are behind the wheel of a Mercedes Benz or a BMW would have been proud to own a donkey and a cart made out of an old truck axle if they still lived in the old country. The added joy is that their brother has a drivers license so they are covered to drive.
Have a nice grill in mind but getting the main part done will be the challenge.
I am thinking that I can then use either mahogany veneer or very thin sheet aluminum glued to the luan to skin it. Thin body metal would work also if it was to be painted or the aluminum could be painted since it would be easier to work with.
What ever I use it should have a strong glue with a high bonding ability since heat on the metal from the sun will act to soften the glue.
Steve.
I thought making a fake crankcase would be the better way out and placing the cylinders on that.
I will be working on the velocar frame as soon as the garage is done and put away. I'm going to use angle iron that I have thanks to Silverbear and I raiding the town tipping station. Large summer crowd there and when they go back home at the end of it, it's a tip dancers delight.
I say that because all you see is a bunch of the lads balancing in amongst the pile like a bunch of ballerinas picking out the choice bits. Sort of Swan Lake'ish since the Rat King always gets what you wanted.
I plan to bolt a plywood floor to it with the proper cut outs for the rear wheel and pedals and a plywood frame with ribs to attach a 1/4 inch luan skin to it using a really good construction ahesive and staples/nails.
Thinking for me a hub motor or a wheel chair motor geared to provide about 30 mph top end. The law says 20 but given the drivers we have here and the narrow shoulders it would be best to be able to get out of the way if you can.
Many off our drivers who now are behind the wheel of a Mercedes Benz or a BMW would have been proud to own a donkey and a cart made out of an old truck axle if they still lived in the old country. The added joy is that their brother has a drivers license so they are covered to drive.
Have a nice grill in mind but getting the main part done will be the challenge.
I am thinking that I can then use either mahogany veneer or very thin sheet aluminum glued to the luan to skin it. Thin body metal would work also if it was to be painted or the aluminum could be painted since it would be easier to work with.
What ever I use it should have a strong glue with a high bonding ability since heat on the metal from the sun will act to soften the glue.
Steve.
steve
Use screws or better yet bolts not nails or staples on a STEEL frame.
Also for the skin gluing the skin on is a waste of time they do not make a glue that holds because the aluminum moves with tempature changes. The trim is what holds the skin in place on Airstream camping trailers and other campers that are skinned in aluminum. angle is not strong eough either C channel or tube for the frame. Angle is hard to bend one way but very easy to bend the other.
Use screws or better yet bolts not nails or staples on a STEEL frame.
Also for the skin gluing the skin on is a waste of time they do not make a glue that holds because the aluminum moves with tempature changes. The trim is what holds the skin in place on Airstream camping trailers and other campers that are skinned in aluminum. angle is not strong eough either C channel or tube for the frame. Angle is hard to bend one way but very easy to bend the other.
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Ibedayank,
Thank you for the warning. I don't know if you saw my sidecar build but if not it's in the sidecar sticky in the board track thread. That will give you a better idea of what I'm going to do as far as the body covering.
I made the body frame for the side car out of 1x2 and then glued and nailed 1/4" luan plywood onto that. Then mahogany strips were glued and nailed to that like a boat would be built.
This time do to the size of the velcar and the cost of mahogany I'll just veneer it with mahogany veneer or veneer it with very thin sheets of aluminium. About two steps up from kitchen foil thickness.
I spent a large part of my life restoring and repairing antique furniture so this type of construction and the veneering is second nature.
You are most certainly right in saying that angle iron is not the greatest frame material. but since I have it and this is the king of budget builds, I will have to use it. I'm using 3/4" high grade plywood for the floor and I'm counting on that to make up for the lack of rigidity in the angle iron once the two are bolted together. Also I'm counting on the fact that it will be 24" wide so there won't be the flex that a wider body would have.
In order to bend it around to the boat tailed shape that the velocar will have I'm going to cut very thin wedges in one side of angle iron and bend it to fit the precut floor and weld each one shut.
As I mentioned in my post that gluing the aluminium to the luan is iffy at best even with a really great glue. You're right about the moulding being what holds the siding on the trailers. I rebuilt 4 of them in a fit of madness. No Air streams though. Convinced myself that it was sheer genius to do it.
Got a very fast lesson in how to build crap and get lots of money for it. They could have at least used better 2x2's to build the trailers (caravans).
If I go the aluminum route I may well just shape it and join the side and top under a moulding down the sides as you suggested. Makes much more sense to do that than risking the metal skin moving in the heat and having a rippled and ruined job. Paint, if it's dark, would make the rippling even worse.
Thank you for catching what could have been a major problem. That's what I love so much about this site. Everyone looks after everyone else.
Steve.
Thank you for the warning. I don't know if you saw my sidecar build but if not it's in the sidecar sticky in the board track thread. That will give you a better idea of what I'm going to do as far as the body covering.
I made the body frame for the side car out of 1x2 and then glued and nailed 1/4" luan plywood onto that. Then mahogany strips were glued and nailed to that like a boat would be built.
This time do to the size of the velcar and the cost of mahogany I'll just veneer it with mahogany veneer or veneer it with very thin sheets of aluminium. About two steps up from kitchen foil thickness.
I spent a large part of my life restoring and repairing antique furniture so this type of construction and the veneering is second nature.
You are most certainly right in saying that angle iron is not the greatest frame material. but since I have it and this is the king of budget builds, I will have to use it. I'm using 3/4" high grade plywood for the floor and I'm counting on that to make up for the lack of rigidity in the angle iron once the two are bolted together. Also I'm counting on the fact that it will be 24" wide so there won't be the flex that a wider body would have.
In order to bend it around to the boat tailed shape that the velocar will have I'm going to cut very thin wedges in one side of angle iron and bend it to fit the precut floor and weld each one shut.
As I mentioned in my post that gluing the aluminium to the luan is iffy at best even with a really great glue. You're right about the moulding being what holds the siding on the trailers. I rebuilt 4 of them in a fit of madness. No Air streams though. Convinced myself that it was sheer genius to do it.
Got a very fast lesson in how to build crap and get lots of money for it. They could have at least used better 2x2's to build the trailers (caravans).
If I go the aluminum route I may well just shape it and join the side and top under a moulding down the sides as you suggested. Makes much more sense to do that than risking the metal skin moving in the heat and having a rippled and ruined job. Paint, if it's dark, would make the rippling even worse.
Thank you for catching what could have been a major problem. That's what I love so much about this site. Everyone looks after everyone else.
Steve.
steve it would be cheaper to cover with epoxy and fiberglass then paint.
research stitch and glue boatbuilding for information also keeps the wood from rotting by sealing it.
research stitch and glue boatbuilding for information also keeps the wood from rotting by sealing it.
Winky valves may yet happen, - all I need is to find a wounded old Austin engine to provide some nice slender pushrods and some rocker arms. It wouldn't be too difficult to make a wooden crankcase, - most of the old engines crankcases were cast from wooden patterns anyway. Sealed well with epoxy and painted with aluminium paint it would be hard to pick from the real thing.
Ibedayank: Wood framing can be very strong if designed and put together properly. One of the most fire breathing competitive hill climb cars of all time, 'Bloody Mary', - has a wooden chassis frame based around two lengths of Ash timber. The GN and the Graham-White cyclecars had wooden frames, the Carden cyclecar had a form of semi-unified construction in wood where its wooden bodyshell was the chassis as well. The list goes on......
Ibedayank: Wood framing can be very strong if designed and put together properly. One of the most fire breathing competitive hill climb cars of all time, 'Bloody Mary', - has a wooden chassis frame based around two lengths of Ash timber. The GN and the Graham-White cyclecars had wooden frames, the Carden cyclecar had a form of semi-unified construction in wood where its wooden bodyshell was the chassis as well. The list goes on......
Im the problem here stateside is just GETTING the good wood to do this without going broke. Straight grain hardwood here is almost unheard of now. Much cheaper just to use steel.
Intrepid Wheelwoman,
Most certainly wood would work but having spent my life, literally, working with it I'm looking to find something else to use. Bet I'll be back using it though.
Can't leave an old friend behind dispite the fact that I keep trying.
When we get to the winky valves it will be fun to see what the other person comes up with. Austins are one of my favorite cars, ever since my 1951 that I had in 1962. My first car.
The genuine leather upholstery got me at first glance.
Ibedayank,
You are 100% right again but the cost here in Canada would be stiff. Our gas is almost $6.00 a gallon and the chemicals follow that line.
For the size of the velocar I would build the cost would be around $700 to do two layers.
I spent a few years in the fiberglass industry in Florida when I lived there. Did work for Epcot Center and built Everret Morrison cobra car bodies as well as my fair share of septic tanks so it wasn't all glory. I was taught how by the son of the first man to use fiberglass in Tampa.
My lungs are also not that healthy after all the years of being around laquer spraying so I tend to be really cautious. I may think about epoxy/spandex covering though since it will be spring when I get to it. That would cut the cost a great deal.
I think that epoxy is around $50-$60 a gallon but I'll go by the place that sells it and see what the exact price is this week.
Steve.
Most certainly wood would work but having spent my life, literally, working with it I'm looking to find something else to use. Bet I'll be back using it though.
Can't leave an old friend behind dispite the fact that I keep trying.
When we get to the winky valves it will be fun to see what the other person comes up with. Austins are one of my favorite cars, ever since my 1951 that I had in 1962. My first car.
The genuine leather upholstery got me at first glance.
Ibedayank,
You are 100% right again but the cost here in Canada would be stiff. Our gas is almost $6.00 a gallon and the chemicals follow that line.
For the size of the velocar I would build the cost would be around $700 to do two layers.
I spent a few years in the fiberglass industry in Florida when I lived there. Did work for Epcot Center and built Everret Morrison cobra car bodies as well as my fair share of septic tanks so it wasn't all glory. I was taught how by the son of the first man to use fiberglass in Tampa.
My lungs are also not that healthy after all the years of being around laquer spraying so I tend to be really cautious. I may think about epoxy/spandex covering though since it will be spring when I get to it. That would cut the cost a great deal.
I think that epoxy is around $50-$60 a gallon but I'll go by the place that sells it and see what the exact price is this week.
Steve.
I've turned my hand to a lot of things thing in my life and one of my first jobs I fell into as a 14 year old kid was working with a Scottish father and son who rebuilt old Rolls Royces. Father was a body builder and the son was a painter who served his apprenticship at Jaguar.
The kid was the frame and parts washer and degreaser. Oh the glory.
They even payed me to be that close to Heaven.
I was always told that ash was used in car bodies and frames because it would flex and withstand shock with out breaking where oak wasn't as forgiving. That's why axe and hammer handles were made of ash as well as wagon and buggy wheels.
Oddly enough the last refinishing job I did was the all the wood from the interior of a 1973 Rolls Royce. It was veneered plywood.
Steve.
The kid was the frame and parts washer and degreaser. Oh the glory.
They even payed me to be that close to Heaven.
I was always told that ash was used in car bodies and frames because it would flex and withstand shock with out breaking where oak wasn't as forgiving. That's why axe and hammer handles were made of ash as well as wagon and buggy wheels.
Oddly enough the last refinishing job I did was the all the wood from the interior of a 1973 Rolls Royce. It was veneered plywood.
Steve.
Ibedayank,
That would be sweet. I may drift by the wood supply when I go up to see the plastic shop to see how bad they will rake my wallet in both places. It won't be good I'd bet but if they have some decent wood I'll put it in our work shop to make sure it's dry for spring.
A gallon of epoxy would be enough after it was thinned out to spray. Wet sanded and sprayed and buffed out. Yipes it would look like a giant sidecar.
Dammit Sir, you've seal my fate. Mahogany it is.
Steve.
That would be sweet. I may drift by the wood supply when I go up to see the plastic shop to see how bad they will rake my wallet in both places. It won't be good I'd bet but if they have some decent wood I'll put it in our work shop to make sure it's dry for spring.
A gallon of epoxy would be enough after it was thinned out to spray. Wet sanded and sprayed and buffed out. Yipes it would look like a giant sidecar.
Dammit Sir, you've seal my fate. Mahogany it is.
Steve.
steve i would put down a layer of fiberglass fabric then epoxy no need to thin..roll it on over the ply then varish or some other UV proof clear finish
epoxy work best done outside when warm enough...fumes are nasty
epoxy work best done outside when warm enough...fumes are nasty
The temporary euphoria of dreaming about a Morgan inspired 3 wheeler is giving way to the more sane reality of too many projects at hand (Indian tri-car, Tomos/AMF "Orphan" and once summer comes finishing up the 1934 Elgin 3 speed to sell) and not enough funds to accomplish what is at hand. So, I will watch and cheer you guys (and girls) on until perhaps a year from now. By then I'll have a better idea of how to go about it, learning from others. I'm still figuring on using an aluminum canoe as a donor for the body, but perhaps you are right that a steel angle frame with plywood floor is the way to go. I did some staring at my canoe sidecar and was picturing it longer and upside down with the gunnel bolted to the frame, bow to the rear, single seat. Leave most of the keel in place but the body drawn in a bit up front where the "radiator" cowling would be. Cut out a cockpit, give it a nice upholstered seat in black elk hide, a curved wind screen and dashboard beneath it with a steering wheel. I have a deal in motion (for next summer) to swap a 2 stroke bike for a Columbia moped with a 50 cc water cooled 2 stroke German Solo engine. I would use that as the donor for rear wheel, engine and drive line, lights, turn signals and horn. Whatever I do, it will have to be on a strict budget. By then I can study Steve's build and what the Intrepid Wheelwoman has come up with for guidance. The dump will provide the angle iron, the moped most of the mechanical parts and engine hanger and for the body I have the other half of the Grumman canoe I paid $20.00 for. I'd like to start building it next winter, a year from now.
SB
SB
Intrepid Wheelwoman,
I was a little more blunt when I saw it but yes, very much the same reaction. The plywood wasn't that thick also.
Ibedayank,
I'll be doing it outside trust me. Just as soon as spring arrives and it's warm enough.
Steve.
I was a little more blunt when I saw it but yes, very much the same reaction. The plywood wasn't that thick also.
Ibedayank,
I'll be doing it outside trust me. Just as soon as spring arrives and it's warm enough.
Steve.
This is a great thread! Lots of ideas here. I'm still working on my own idea for a motorized three-wheeler. So far, I have an evolving design which incorporates a Honda 50 cc scooter's back end (or a Piagio, haven't quite decided yet) along with some solid moped wheels, go-cart front end parts, and old snowmobile leaf springs. I have a whole bunch of ideas about the frame. As for the bodywork, one idea I had was to use an aluminum, upturned canoe and go from there. I thought about the overall look ending up somewhere between a Talbot Lago T150 SS and a Morgan Cyclecar. Still doing sketches at this point. But I'm pretty sure I'll be building something.
The idea is: I can put a top on it and be dry in the rain; better protection from surrounding bodywork; 50 cc and three wheels means I don't need to register it or get a special license.
The idea is: I can put a top on it and be dry in the rain; better protection from surrounding bodywork; 50 cc and three wheels means I don't need to register it or get a special license.
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Whoa! I see great minds think alike! I've been thinking about using a canoe this way also. See my post up there. Cool, SB. Too cool.
Excellent... we can compare notes as we go. If Steve had not helped me make the sidecar for my Indian I might not have chosen this route, but it turned out so well and we learned so much from the experiment that the canoe idea seems a good one. By the way, even the dents, scratches and abrasions polished up beautifully on the sidecar. These cars will look old with no particular effort on our part.
Where I live in northeastern Minnesota near the small town of Ely, is on the edge of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness of a million acres, a paradise of fresh water lakes. Minnesota has over 12,500 lakes (has to be 10 acres at minimum to be called a lake) and most are located in northeastern Minnesota in an area called The Arrowhead. There are several Indian reservations of the Ojibwa (Chippewa) Indians located there. To say it is canoe country is an understatement. People come to little Ely from far and wide in the summer and turn it into a tourist town where it seems like every third vehicle has a canoe on top.
Finding a dead one as a donor for my sidecar was a simple matter of putting an ad in the local paper. The 17 foot Grumman I bought for $20.00 had been mangled in a rapids and had a gash midway on both sides. I could have repaired it, but wanted a sidecar. If I can get a velocar body out of it, too, it will be the best $20.00 I've ever spent. I'm in Maryland for the winter, so can't go out and measure the length of the remains, but as I recall the width at the center point was three feet. If I need for it to be longer for the velocar I should be able to find another donor, but I think I have 7 or 8 feet to work with. Especially with the gunnel bolted to the angle iron and plywood frame, it would be a very strong body. I was thinking about a folding top for the cockpit, something like from an old time baby buggy.
The Solo moped engine I have in mind starts like the Tomos A35... pedals are part of the engine assembly and by snapping the pedal backwards it acts as a kickstart. Pedals will technically move the bike around, and we all know that's a joke, but one which keeps it legal. How does your scooter engine start?
I'm thinking to somehow use the engine hanger from the Columbia moped, cut out and bolted to the undercarriage... steel channel welded to the angle iron side rails. This would make the engine hang down a bit, as it would on a moped, and if it were moved forward more should give good leg room. So part of the floor would be open underneath to allow the pedal circuit. I suppose that could be covered with an aluminum cowling to keep weather out.
Anyway, that's what I'm thinking right now which is subject to change at any time. I'll have a year to think about all this and gather the materials together. see what you're doing and steal all your good ideas. I know nothing about go kart steering and find your leaf spring suspension idea of interest. This is fun stuff to think about.
SB