Rules For Racing...

[Dave31]

Where is all of you who have emailed and PM me? Here is your chance to speak your mind?

Come on now, I did my part by starting a motorized bicycle forum section just for you, dont leave me hanging now.

 

[culvercityclassic]

Speak my mind...I have in the past and now I am a spectator.

I would like to mention that Apex is willing to have events for us and all we need is a minimum of 20 riders and they will do the rest. It is a well set up area and the staff is great. They will cook for use too...This way no one person is liable for the cash to have the event will not have to organize all the things that go with a race... we can all go have FUN.. with no B.S.


http://www.apexracing.com/

 

[bairdco]

i've been working on an "outlaw street race" where there are no rules (except pedals.)

one class, one race, and anything short of knocking someone off their bike is legal.

can't reveal the location, but think abandoned streets where lawns, sidewalks, backyards, driveways and shortcuts will all be fair game.

it's a pipe dream for now, but if i can convince the right people to unlock the gates, i'll let you know...

 

[liveforphysics]

i've been working on an "outlaw street race" where there are no rules (except pedals.)

one class, one race, and anything short of knocking someone off their bike is legal.

can't reveal the location, but think abandoned streets where lawns, sidewalks, backyards, driveways and shortcuts will all be fair game.

it's a pipe dream for now, but if i can convince the right people to unlock the gates, i'll let you know...

I'm down.




I've heard "Safe", now going by "Safety" pound his keyboard about keeping electric bicycles below 1kW (a bit over 1hp) for about 4years now. Aside from the <1kW power ranting, I've never seen or heard of him making a single powered bicycle race anywhere for anything, despite always having more to say about it than anyone else.

Come to an event Safe. You might like racing bicycles rather than just typing about how they should all have 1kW.

From who have voiced there opinion to me its more there attitude "we wont race unless we race against ICE bikes" that seems to rub people the wrong way.

I've heard it myself and the only thing I think of is they just want to prove a point. Which I have yet to understand?

I can tell you why I like to race gas bikes. It's different technologies going head to head. You guys have your advantages and disadvantages (like for example, 1lbs of gasoline gives you what I have to carry 30lbs of batteries to equal), and we have our advantages and disadvantages (like monster torque on command).

In import drag racing, turn-out was bad, events kinda mellowed down to just a handful of competitors, and it got pretty boring. Domestic drag racing (at an amateur everyday-Joe budget level here, not NHRA funny cars etc) also was pretty dull after a while. Everyone knows everyone else and what they're running, events stopped drawing big enough crowds to even make it worth opening concession stands.

Then... They tried mixing them against each other, Import vs Domestic events. Whoa!! This kicks ass again! Rather than being about who's supercharged nitrous huffing v8 in a mustang or camaro was faster, it was a battle of turbocharged 1.6-2.2L 4-bangers in FWD Civics with manual trannys going up against 5L-8L nitrous/SC V8's in RWD chassis with drag racing auto trannys. Whoa! Now it's fun to watch and race in again!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWuiALgcU0A

It transformed the whole feeling of racing into something awesome, like teams in a battle supporting each other and working together to defeat the other side. In the pits, it's crazy, in the domestic only or import only events, nobody is sharing parts or helping other guys fix stuff etc, in an import VS domestic event, it's amazing how guys all pull together to try to get somebody from there side in the winners circle. I had a guy who was just a spectator pull his axles out of the Integra he drove to the track with in the parking lot and give them to me to keep me in the race (on my 3rd broken axle of the day...) On the domestic side, I've seen guys pull there whole tranny (after they were all ready eliminated by an import) to give to another guy who broke his.

For the fans, rather than it being 4hrs of Civic hatchback vs Civic hatch, or 4hrs of fox-body mustang vs fox-body mustang, it's instead an exciting blend of different cars racing, FWD 4cylinder cars racing against monster RWD V8s, the RWD V8 cars always coming off the line harder, often in a wheelie, then the turbo spooling up on the FWD car and running down the big V8s before they pass the traps at the quarter mile. It's awesomely exciting to watch and participate in that way. It's so much better, most folks I raced with stopped even attending events that weren't mixed classes going head-to-head. Anyways, that's why I love to race the gas bikes. I know every ebiker, and exactly what he's running, about 80% of them I helped with the design or setup or tune there system at some point. I don't get excited about beating them, they are my all my buddies and friends. I don't know any of the gas bike guys beyond a few sentences of trash-talking exchanged, and possibly being able to pick a few of them out of a line-up. This makes it exciting and fun to race against them, because it's an unknown opponent. I don't know if the guy is an ex-supermoto champion, or a guys first time on a racetrack. I don't know if the bike has 3hp or 30hp, and I don't know how it's going to accelerate either, if it will scream off the line in a wheelie like Scotto's, or barely creep forward like the Tomahawk tuning moped, but then come on like a freight-train at about 25-30mph. This makes things fun and exciting to race with! If the race was 5-10 other ebikes, I don't think I would bother to make the 10hr drive to race, it just doesn't stir any passion. If the race was against a field of 50 of the fastest gas bikes and ebikes this side of the country offers, all battling it out head-to-head, then **** yes I'm in! I want battles, I want to be mixing it up with the fastest!

I loved the last event with the Tomahawk moped riding wheel to wheel with me, coming in for passes in the twisty sections so close his handlebar was in my armpit, both weaving through the S-turns together. That was some awesome exciting intense racing! I loved it! That's what i come to do, and Bairdco's last event delivered it in quantity, and I can't wait to get more of it this next weekend!

 

[buck0]

I'm not sure if it was mentioned but the bigger 4-stroke engines (not sure about Briggs) has a 5th hole on the valve cover and oil spits out. I'm not sure if the 99cc and lower cc 4-strokes have it but to keep it safe I believe it should be mandatory to have a oil catch can or something similar to catch the oil so it doesn't spit on the track. The last thing I want to see is someone take a spill on something that we could have prevented in the first place.

 

[Thud]

I'll chime in.
Please stop useing stupid Horspower figure's & limits to describe a class. It is the most speculative & undeterminable definition in any motor sport I have ever seen. & totaly unmeasurable.

The only reasonable way to group power levels is by displacment, then by furthur specifications on allowable modifications. Anyone read a current Karting rulebook that describes max cam lifts & durations? then goes into detail about the rockerarms & a ton of stuff that is determinable ony by teardown...I went to one local kart race this year & witnessed 3 protested motors...total head ache.

Now about the renagade e-bikes....Luke has to feed his race jones with as much power as he can throw a leg over......after that farfle is next building custom bike & motors for some power levels that can crush a built up 212cc preditor. I built my e-bike with the idea of competeing with the Morini powerd bikes out there. (just as multi race winner PaulD did) Etard is running the same motor set up as paulD.....why doesnt he win every race? he weighs 50# more than paulD & his frame set up doesn't allow for much pedal input to "help his tiny ellectric motors.

Thuds perfect rule book:
#1 machine must have working pedals
#2 machine must have working brakes on both wheels
#3 single speed reductions to the driving wheel (no variators,multispeed transmisions)
#4 all machines subject to inspection to verify a functioning kill switch/button (gas or ellectric) & all controlls work as designed...a general look over for overall race readiness(tires are not showing cords, no loose wires or fluid leaks)

Fun run class:
for the everyday stree ridable bikes to go out on the track & have some fun hooning it up & getting braging rights over their buddies. mirrors removed & ususal minimum saftey gear required. since the hogpodge of equipment used it will allways be a contentious class...but if its what you want....here it is.

If your bike fits any of the below catagories or is
a more serious "track only" build......some suggested guidlines.

Race Classes:

Micro-experimental: <50cc 2 stroke engines in any drive senario. (weed wacker engines/50cc 4 strokes/any drive style 36v ellectric hub motored bikes (fun class eligible)

China girl street stock:
Stock kit motored bikes with stock kit exaust,carburator & ignition. upgrades allowed to sprockets. 48volt hub-motored ellectrics (fun class eligible)

China girl modified:
Any modifications are leagle as long as the bike is well constructed & safe to operate.
(fun class eligible)

Builders class:
Any 50cc 2-stroke to include, highly modified 66cc china girls, the morini's & pocket bike engines, 99cc 4-strokes, 72v ellectrics with 4" max motor diameters.
(fun class in-eligible)

Open class:
Wheel & tire rules excluded for open class. Max displacment of 250cc 4 stroke, 125cc 2- stroke engines. Watercooling allowed. variators allowed but no shiftable mutispeed gearboxes. Any ellectric motor & 100v limited.
(fun class in-eligible)


Aproved tires for competition:
Any Bicycle tire, rim, hub combo to include mountain bike 20mm axel hubs.
any 16" moped tires that will fit bicycle rims

The tracks have their rules for minimum safty gear for riders. dress for the crash.

 

[scotto-]

Which class would best suit a stock Honda GX120 or GC160 build? I'm thinking the builder class as they are rather low in power (4-5hp).

 

[Thud]

For the sake of discusion, The gx120 may well fall into the builders class.

It would be easy to create a 2nd builders class for bigger engines that still have spec tire rules. I just hate the idea of limiting modifications so we need a rule book & a tech to answer any questions if a engine is leagle.

The 160 is starting to push some displacment issues, especialy when you remove the govoner & start building them up.(that is the base for clone racing anyway & easy to make 18hp with one using over the counter part$)
lets count how many show up the 15th.

I didn't put every possible motor into each loose catagory...but if we are serious about creating classes to build bikes for, we can hash it out, its really all about fun & not creating a class for each engine.

We just need to keep a place for the lowly china girls from gettin so beat down by everything else on the planet....I think they are the core of the racing turn out if I am not mistaken. (& I am most pumped to see how my 48cc china girl fairs against the rest next weekend) I left it single speed to keep in the sprirt of the event.

 

[scotto-]

I only mentioned these two engines as running stock. The GC160 is an overhead cam engine with lower compression and no hop-up parts outside of a carb and pipe. The GX120 is 4hp stock and be pumped up to perhaps 18hp. If they were left stock, 4-5hp (like many Briggs being built), I don't think they would stand a chance against a bike like mine (if mines unlimited?).

For the sake of discusion, The gx120 may well fall into the builders class.

It would be easy to create a 2nd builders class for bigger engines that still have spec tire rules. I just hate the idea of limiting modifications so we need a rule book & a tech to answer any questions if a engine is leagle.

The 160 is starting to push some displacment issues, especialy when you remove the govoner & start building them up.(that is the base for clone racing anyway & easy to make 18hp with one using over the counter part$)
lets count how many show up the 15th.

I didn't put every possible motor into each loose catagory...but if we are serious about creating classes to build bikes for, we can hash it out, its really all about fun & not creating a class for each engine.

We just need to keep a place for the lowly china girls from gettin so beat down by everything else on the planet....I think they are the core of the racing turn out if I am not mistaken. (& I am most pumped to see how my 48cc china girl fairs against the rest next weekend) I left it single speed to keep in the sprirt of the event.

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

This is getting a little out of hand... Things (for the most part) have been working pretty well at all the MB races...

It's been said here before... "The quailifiers need to be used for proper race class, & pole position".

In the future, if someone's obviously 'out performing' all the other riders in his 'qualifying' class or race?, then that racer simply needs to be bumped up to the next upper class.

Let's all try to keep this fun & fair without a lot of crazy rules.


If this doesn't work?, then we'll be forced to use a expensive transponder system to keep track on a computer of how fast racers are really going (& put them in their proper time class)!

 

[culvercityclassic]

I am with Venice on this one, what crap did I start... Lol

Way to heavy on the replys... That's for sure.

Let's just have a fun time...

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

I'm down.

I loved the last event with the Tomahawk moped riding wheel to wheel with me, coming in for passes in the twisty sections so close his handlebar was in my armpit, both weaving through the S-turns together. That was some awesome exciting intense racing! I loved it! That's what i come to do, and Bairdco's last event delivered it in quantity, and I can't wait to get more of it this next weekend!

What class is your eMotorcycle racing in Luke?
You are running full on motorcycle wheels with slicks and have 40 or more hp.

The Tomahawk Moped had no pedals and didn't really fit in too.

 

[Easy Rider]

i've been working on an "outlaw street race" where there are no rules (except pedals.)

can't reveal the location, but think abandoned streets where lawns, sidewalks, backyards, driveways and shortcuts will all be fair game.

Now that sounds awesome! How about special short cuts with ramps!

 

[magrider]

another suggestion for race classes, rules, motos, heats, finals, what’s fair, what’s not fair, who can race, who gets a trophy, and, or whatever else I forget and will forget.

Rule 1: We race what we brought, whether it be China, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, e-bike, moped, functioning pedals (meaning the MB can be ridden as a bicycle), no internal gears.


Rule 2: All racers line up on the starting line and when the green flag drops we race for 1 hour. The racer that completes the most laps after 60 minutes is declared the winner.

We all race together, against each other, all on the track at the same time.


If you have to refuel you do it, if you have to make a battery change/ charge you do it. If you have to put air in your tires you do it, if you have to go to the restroom and have a smoke you do it. If you have to finish the race under pedal power you do it. Basically put your build, endurance, pitting, strategy, and riding skill to the test.

 

[scotto-]

another suggestion for race classes, rules, motos, heats, finals, what’s fair, what’s not fair, who can race, who gets a trophy, and, or whatever else I forget and will forget.

Rule 1: We race what we brought, whether it be China, 2-stroke, 4-stroke, e-bike, moped, functioning pedals (meaning the MB can be ridden as a bicycle), no internal gears.


Rule 2: All racers line up on the starting line and when the green flag drops we race for 1 hour. The racer that completes the most laps after 60 minutes is declared the winner.

We all race together, against each other, all on the track at the same time.


If you have to refuel you do it, if you have to make a battery change/ charge you do it. If you have to put air in your tires you do it, if you have to go to the restroom and have a smoke you do it. If you have to finish the race under pedal power you do it. Basically put your build, endurance, pitting, strategy, and riding skill to the test.

Ya know Steve (magrider), I think that's a great format for a race. It's kinda like the old classic Elsinore Grand Prix race, the Baja 500 & 1000, the Great Bear Grand Prix and many desert races I have done in the past. In fact, they used to do a Goped type scooter race called the endurance race at certain racing events and it really is a great test of man and machine. Anything can happen and that is RACING!

 

[Thud]

LOL!
We have gone full circle.
You know, I doubt any one who is coming to the races really cares about classes & all the managment crap that it generates....home built bikes are are so diversified it is impossible to be "all inclusive" with any idea of leveling the competition.
I love the idea of making a timed event (but i love most forms of racing anyway)

The Death race had it right from the begining...show up, ride, have fun.

There is a lot to be said about keeping in the spirit of the event. Being an optomist, I have to beleive most guys are going to kep it reasonable. & for the 1% that are building some super-bikes....I still want to see them too. whether is on 17" superbike wheels & tires or if its a boardtracker built on 36" unicycle wheels.

I think this is a good thread.....what we need is a poll to see what would bring more guys to the races. more turn out = more fun

Here is a propsal:
What about a "premire" event for this stuff. Series points & championships are fine....but nothing will create a turn out like the "BIG" event.
(think Indy 500)
I (& I suspect others) can only make a trip once a year & that would be the event I would budget for.

I am with Venice on this one, what crap did I start... Lol

Way to heavy on the replys... That's for sure.

Let's just have a fun time...

 

[SoSauty]

Death Race, show up, ride, race, have fun had this going for it: someone in front of 'ya and someone behind 'ya. Competing is fun, lapping and getting lapped, not so much.

One or 2 or 3 classes beats 4 or 5 or 6 classes everytime. And I trust the guy who's racing 65mph more than the rookies toolling about at 25mph.

Thud, I'm charged and ready to race with you! Plan to make time to hang around as well, see you there!

 

[buck0]

LOL in Ca. 2 strokes are to be street legal it must be 49cc or lower at a max 30 mph & your saying for us to race 49cc or slower engines. Thats why there are different classes, beginner or introductory and affordable class, the mid class & unlimited class. Its obviously that you want to race in the beginner class since your not willing to push it to the limits. Leave the mods & unlimited stuff alone if you dont plan on racing in it.

 

[buck0]

So a box stock class?? Should we have a box stock class, yes!! There sort of was one & its the 2-stroke china bikes. My brother Magrider was racing a box stock 2-stroke engine and won I think 3 times. Slight mods to the pipe, a piece of dodo carb but thats it. Then this year people started showing up with reeds in those engines and went much much faster. In my opinion which means nothing in here is since they modded those engines it should have been bumped up to the next class, (again my opinion means nothing in here). And keep the box stock 2-stroke class what it means. I dont know how ebikes work & I dont want to know but maybe with the proper adjustments you could configure it to that class or any other class.

 

[liveforphysics]

About 95% of racing is building and tuning the contraption you're get to race, to try to find every advantage you can.

In some racing, like drag racing, ****, even something like Olympic swimming or track and field etc, the experience is 99.999% working to build-up and tune the thing you're going to race.

In 10 years of running a drag car, I bet I've not had 15minutes total of racing down the track at events. Spent 1,000's of hours and maybe $100,000usd on engineering/testing/repairing/re-engineering the racecars, the actual going down the track in an event aspect is like 1/1000th of a percent of the effort and experience of racing.


The concept also strips away the best part of the racing experience, creating the contraption you will be racing with your own hands, pouring that blood sweat, and tears into something of your own design that you want to put to the test against the best other folks were able to build and see who's comes out on top.


Riding some 1-size-bores-all pre-made contraption around a track is something I wouldn't bother to attend even if it was free for everything and they served lunch.


Also, it's a RACETRACK. Who gives a damn about laws or having anything meet anything to do with any sort of law from anywhere? That's kinda the whole purpose of a racetrack, a place you're free to use/ride all the wild contraptions you can create without some wanker cop chasing you.

Doing it as legal ebikes would mean all the gas bikes would be capped at 50cc, the ebikes capped at ~1kw, and nobody would be excited to ride/race that, its painful to even have to commute in traffic on a bike with <5hp. (though much less painful on an electric with <5hp than a gasser with <5hp).

It might appear like I think I have "all the answers", but I've struggled with this concept sport along with everyone else.

Here are the issues as I see it:

1. Street Legality - The machines that end up on the racetrack must be the same as those sold on the street, but with some type of minor modification. Installing an Etek motor onto an ebike sort of defeats the concept of ebike.

2. Modification - If you have to completely "gut" the street legal ebike in order to race on the track then the sport has a problem. Having spent way too many hours doing endless modifications (almost everything on my new bike was custom built) I do not want others to have to go through the h-e-l-l I've been through in long build times and would prefer bikes are easy to buy already for the racetrack.

--------------

My recent thinking is this "ramp rate" idea.

CURRENT defines heat for ebikes.

...so rather than thinking in terms of horsepower (which is a derived value combining torque and rpm) you think in terms of constant torque or (saying the same thing) constant current for ebikes.

What this does is allow an ebike to be sold with a top speed of 20 mph and peak power at 20 mph within the one horsepower limit. The racer then DOUBLES the voltage while keeping the constant current limit which will produce:

20 mph ---> 1hp (stock voltage)

40 mph ---> 2 hp (at twice the voltage, same motor current)

...both bikes will maintain a CONSTANT motor heat.

(the stock motor can be used as the race motor)

This is what I will be testing in my new bike.

Just in case someone didn't understand the concept let me state it in another way:

The law states that your motor must intersect a "maximum point" of power at 20 mph. With a "ramp rate" that intersects that point you ensure that under 20 mph the ebike is legal. To go above 20 mph requires a change in the battery pack voltage. If you double the pack voltage the peak hp becomes 2. If you triple the pack voltage the hp becomes 3. Etc... At some point you run into aerodynamic limits to the "ramp rate", but motor heat does not change. (remember this is "motor current" we are talking about, there is no "current multiplication" going on like you would have with "battery current" limiting)

Hopefully people are getting this.