Indian Tadpole

[silverbear]

The HF mig welder was rated at 90amps and that was iffy I think. We now have a 30 to 125 amp mig welder made by Hobart so I hope to be able go over the welds I did and strengthen them.

I'm going to make two sidecar frames. One for each half of the canoe and Silverbear can make a second set up whenever he chooses. He'll just have to drill the holes to match the bike he wants to use.

When that is done I'll start on my tri-car build and I think that will come along quickly.
Now there's some great last words if there ever were any.

Debating whether to cut the frame to lower the motor and then use the the motor as part of the frame as the older motorcycle did, including Indian. I may move the pedals back a few inches to gain some space but until I get the motor in and measured that's just thoughts.

As SB said I was tossing the Villiers vs Sachs engine around and since the tri-car will have a seat in front and the 2 speed transmission will help with the take off and weight of a passenger and the Sachs engine lines up pretty much in line with the rear wheel without using a jack shaft that seemed the natural choice.
As always, time will tell if the best of plans have gone stray.

I'll be back in a couple of of sidecar frames to continue my half of the thread

Steve.

 

[silverbear]

Quick note.

I knocked my computer on the floor and broke the battery charger plug so I'm borrowing one from SB. My posts will show up as his until I get a new charger in a few days
Steve.

 

[harry76]

Havent checked in for a while..... wow guys. This build is stunning. I really love those Sachs engines. Cant wait to see more. Keep it up guys....

 

[silverbear]

A little update. Steve is going gang busters with the new Hobart welder and yesterday took a break from working on my sidecar frame to work on his camel back Indian.

A change of plans has come with the choice of a different donor frame. He liked my 1939 Hiawatha which has already donated fenders, fender ornament and now streamline pedals for my Indian Hiawatha build. He liked the size of it and the way it was put together, feeling it was a real quality frame.

First off he removed the upper down tube with a cut off wheel. Then he considered using the cutoff as an upper crossbar...

(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

...that would have given plenty of room for the engine, but also drastically changed the shape of the intended build, Indian's first, the camel back. It would not have looked right.

Another donor was found, an old ten speed made in Austria and sold through Sears back when. Steve welded a straight bar from the ten speed into the Hiawatha frame as the new crossbar which kept the frame in line before cutting off the bottom down tube.

If he had left the bottom down tube in place it would have given the frame the intended diamond configuration, but made for a squeeze for the engine, which Steve wanted to be as upright as possible.

Now he removed the bottom down tube and in it's place welded in the upper down tube which he removed before. The last photo shows a connector he made from a section of cutoff, sliced so that it could be compressed to fit inside the each section to be joined. Makes for a strong union that way.

More photos of work are still in the camera and will appear on this very station later... don't change that dial! Stay tuned! Now his Sachs engine sits upright the way he wanted it to and although the frame is a little different from the original Indian, it is very much "in the spirit of" which is the best one can do in a tribute build unless you have very deep pockets. An original Indian engine was listed on ebay recently with a starting bid in the thousands... I didn't stick around to see what it sold for. Steve's camel back tri-car is going to be a very cool bike, I know, and I think he made a good choice in using the Hiawatha... which as it turned out has been a big player in both builds. Next up are the engine mounting brackets.
SB

 

[Tinsmith]

SB, Looks like you guys are having a good summer there. Very nice work Steve! Gonna be fun watching the progress. Got the fenders on the Worksman EZM stretch. Thanks for the struts it looks great. Been getting some miles in trying to get it dialed in for the fall riding season here. Keep at it guys and enjoy yourselves. Dan

 

[fasteddy]

Thanks Tim. Well things take a fast turn here in the north country or at least where we are.
After putting the top piece in the Hiawatha and moving the top bottom tube down to the bottom, Silverbear put the bike on wheels and the top tube I put in had a very definate slant to the rear.

I did the oop's dance around the yard much to Silverbears amusement and looked at cutting the top tube out and then realized the Indian had a very flat chain stay and the Hiawatha didn't. More dancing but this time Silverbear wasn't as amused and went and got the Wanderer {German motor bike} gas tank that Dave the engine guy had given him and put it on the Hiawatha.

Perfection and now a new build is in the wings.

We looked through Silverbears rather impressive stock of build material and went back to the original bike we had picked out. Cut out a lower down tube from a Schwinn girls bike and welded it in.
As it sits now the motor mounts are ready to be welded in and the motor mounted and the rear wheel which Silverbear is lacing up for me put in place to line up to the engine.

I have a lot of photos and will get them on photobucket tomorrow with luck.

Thanks to all reading.

Fast(not another mistake)eddy

 

[fasteddy]

Wanted to mention some of the good folks that helped with this build by selling us parts.

Manic Mechanic, great rear hub adapter and sprocket and shipping time and price.

Amazon.com for the great creme tires and the free shipping.

Bikes U.S.A. for the front wheel with 12 gage spokes that Silverbear is lacing into a Bendix rear hub. The spokes are the right for a rear hub. Trust Silverbear to find that out.

For the first time in my life U.P.S. for the speedy delivery. We are off the beaten path here and thier driver still found us.

And most of all Silverbear who put everything together so well.

Steve.

 

[silverbear]

We're getting kind of far behind in documenting this build of Steve's, so here are some photos and a little commentary from me. He can clear up what I got wrong and explain better.

Sometimes the best intentions and hard work goes awry and in this case it was not discovered until Steve had the frame welded up and we stuck a set of old tires on it to see how it looked with the engine in place.

Oops. Somethin' ain't right!

Steve had forgotten about the Hiawatha having an extra long head tube and the difference left the geometry of the bike all wrong for looking anything like the first Indian. And all that work welding for nothing! He didn't say so, but I imagine he was pretty bummed.

I stared at it awhile and something rang a bell in all that empty space in me head and I remembered the gas tank Dave the motorman gave me the week or so before. It was an old Wanderer gas tank from a German motorcycle which originally had a Sachs motor on it just like ours. I had set it on a straightbar frame and saw that it wasn't right for that and put it away not knowing what I'd ever do with it. Probably nothing..

I got the tank and set it on Steve's modified Hiawatha frame and wowzer... it looks like that's what he had in mind all along was to make a Wanderer. And so that's what he's going to do, but next winter back in Vancouver. I'll make up a seat for it and the frame he worked so hard on will become a new build using another Sachs engine.

But what to do about this Indian tri-car?
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

A little more on the Wanderer before we put it away and get back to the Indian...

Pictured below is a 1938 Wanderer with the Sachs engine. The Hiawatha frame is 1939 so it is of the same vintage. I had the original seat and had cleaned it up last summer, so it didn't take long to give it some new upholstery. Steve chose a section of the hide which looked weathered and kind of old, so I put it together for him today.

The Wanderer, gas tank and seat are put away in Steve's bike trailer and will next get attention when he is home in Canada.

Now back to the Indian...

 

[silverbear]

Steve took a new look at the bike he had set aside in favor of the Hiawatha and decided that if he changed the front down tube to give the engine more room it would work fine.

A middleweight ladies Schwinn Corvette from the dump had already contributed the front down tube for my Indian. It gave up it's other curved down tube for Steve's camelback. Plenty of room now.

He had the idea the engine should sit with the cylinder pointing up so that it would be a little more like the original Indian, but with the carburetor in place it became clear that those clever German engineers wanted that cylinder head to lean forward, else the carb would not sit level. So forward it is. We have to remind ourselves that much as we would like to make replicas of the originals, that simply is not possible, so we will build "in the spirit of".

Next up are the engine mounts...
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

Steve fabricated his engine mounts and got them welded into place. Engine sits nicely in the frame anchored at three mounting points. Now he will clean up the welds with a grinder and move on to other things... like the mounts for my Indian Hiawatha.
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

Before moving on to the next subject, the lacing up of his rear wheel, I wanted to comment on the choice in seats. When I saw a photo of the original Indian I was surprised that the seat shape was very much like the one Steve chose from the department of donors. It was on a Monarch middleweight in very good condition and has springs under the ample padding which makes for a very comfy ride. So that's why.

The wheel. I had made a discovery when putting together the wheels for my Hiawatha and looking for a good coaster brake, that a certain model of Bendix hub is the same diameter as the Shimano CB-110. I had a hub adapter of that size already, so laced it onto an old Schwinn rim with 12 gauge spokes from a cheap front rim from BikeWorldUSA. It turned out great, so we decided to do the same thing on Steve's wheel since I had another of those Bendix hubs. We ordered a heavy duty front wheel from BikeWorldUSA and I laced it into that rim (was going to be painted anyway eventually) and now Steve had a nice wheel reasonably priced.

Notice in the photo that the diameter of the front wheel hub where the spokes go is the same as the Bendix hub where the spokes go. Who would have thought it? So, boys and girls, if you use this size of the old Bendix hub on the front wheel of the one we bought you get a heavy duty wheel with a good coaster brake, with 12 gauge spokes for thirty some bucks. Not bad.

We ordered another hub adapter for a CB-110. It came and was a little too small for the hub. What the??? I thought maybe the adapter was off and tried it on my wheel. It was perfect. The hub itself was slightly different. Then I noticed that Steve's had the place of manufacture engraved on the hub and mine didn't. Must have been just a hair different, perhaps made in a different factory. Moral of the story is to measure the hub while you have it apart from the wheel and order a hub of that diameter. I made things right with Steve's hub with a few minutes light sanding of the hub adapter using the dremel tool with a drum sanding attachment.

I'll leave this thread now to Steve for comments or additional photos as we are up to date. I will also start up a new thread this evening called Indian Hiawatha and will pick up from where I left off on my build here and resume on the new thread. See you there.
Silverbear


.

 

[fasteddy]

Indian Tri-car Build pictures by speedydick - Photobucket

Back once again. I loaded up some more photo's of what I did on the tricar bike frame.
Silverbear has covered most of this in his posts and it is pretty straight forward until I get home in about three weeks then I'll start putting the front end together so it will be more interesting posts and I'll refine some of what I did on the mounts ect. on the bike. We've been pushing hard on Silverbears builds and mine was the test bed for his motor instalation.

I did finally get a good shot of the steering on the tricar and when I get back I'll modify what I made a bit so it's more in line with the original and a better design than what I had in mind

Buying parts to take back with me that we can't get in Canada and Silverbear is loading me up with lots of parts and bikes so I should have enough to finish all the builds that I have planned.
I'll do the tricar first and then a trike using a Monark frame that Silverbear sent up a year ago. The Villiers motor will go on that and then the Wander bike, probably with a child size sidecar.
No, it won't look like a boat this time.
The Wander will get a Sachs motor which it would have had originally.

Tomorrow we will finish Silverbears sidecar mount and have it pretty much mounted on his bike I hope. He'll have lots of photos I'm sure.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Indian Tri-car Build pictures by speedydick - Photobucket

Back once again. I loaded up some more photo's of what I did on the tricar bike frame.
Silverbear has covered most of this in his posts and it is pretty straight forward until I get home in about three weeks then I'll start putting the front end together so it will be more interesting posts and I'll refine some of what I did on the mounts ect. on the bike. We've been pushing hard on Silverbears builds.

I did finally get a good shot of the steering on the tricar and when I get back I'll modify what I made a bit so it's more in line with the original and a better design than what I had in mind

Buying parts to take back with me that we can't get in Canada and Silverbear is loading me up with lots of parts and bikes so I should have enough to finish all the builds that I have planned.
I'll do the tricar first and then a trike using a Monark frame that Silverbear sent up a year ago. The Villiers motor will go on that and then the Wander bike, probably with a child size sidecar.
No, it won't look like a boat this time.
The Wander will get a Sachs motor which it would have had originally.

Tomorrow we will finish Silverbears sidecar mount and have it pretty much mounted on his bike I hope. He'll have lots of photos I'm sure.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Indian Tri-car Build pictures by speedydick - Photobucket

Got a bit more done with the tricar today. After tracking down fenders and trying to make a decison as to what wheels/hubs and brakes or not, to put on the front, it became evident that the fenders I wanted were too wide for the seat stay on the bike. It's 2" and the fenders are 3" and up to 4" wide.

I took the chain stay and part of the seat stay that Silverbear gave me with a set of pedals and chain ring that had been cut out of a girls bike we used parts from and part of a chainstay from another bike that I had the pedal assembly from and after cleaning them up in the sandblaster I will have to decide if I should replace both the seat and chain stay or just the seat stay so I can get a fender to fit.

The chain stay that is there is big enough to give the tire clearance so I'm leaning towards just changing the seat stay.

Found a source for metal that doesn't want me to take a truck load. Well I'd take the truck load but the hounds want a huge heap of cash in return.
I'll bet that the place where I'm going will have a bushel basket held out for what I buy tomorrow. They will insist that I fill the basket as well. We'll know tomorrow at this time.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Well I got a surprise when I went to the Metal Supermarket in Langley B.C.

Bought 10 ft of 1 1/2" tubing with a. 095 wall and 10 ft of 3/4" tubing with a
.065 wall. The price was only $41.07.
After buying metal at Home Depot and taking what they had, I was quite happy with these prices.

The 1 1/2" is for the front axle and from the front axle back to where it will join the bike by the engine. The 3/4" is for the stabilizer bars that will hold the front axle from moving back and the two supports for the tube that comes down from the head tube to the front axle stabilizer supports.

They sent me on to company that sells tubing fittings so I can join the stabilizer tubes to the front axle. This is the way Indian joined everything together.

Should have photos tomorrow with luck.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Indian Tri-car Build pictures by speedydick - Photobucket

Got caught up building a small storage building to put bike parts ect in but got some more done on the tricar.
Took the dropouts from the donor bike and welded them in after I made sure that the wheel was centered in the chain stay which it wasn't.
The usual tweaking and muttering and creative staring got that straightened out.

Took a piece of the old seat stay and it fit inside the donor seat stay/chain stay combination I used to make up the wider seat stay. Drilled two holes, one on either side of the join and welded them up to add support for the place where I welded the join together . Over kill but now I feel better about it.

I have to trim the fork legs off and try and make the steering tube fit inside the 1-1/2 inch tube that will go down from the neck to the tube going from the crank to the front axle. This will have a steering shaft attached to it. Not sure how that will work but hopefully some creative staring will solve the problem.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Indian Tri-car Build pictures by speedydick - Photobucket

Got more done today. Front axle is cut and now I have to work on the steering for that.

I posted photos of what I did to get the tube that runs down from the head tube to the tube that goes from the bottom of the bike to the front axle.

I cut the legs off the forks and ground the top of the forks where they meet the steerer tube.
Put a flap disk on the 4-1/2" grinder and ground it to match the bearing holder on the bottom of the steerer tube then I slowly turned the tube around as I held it onto the flap disk and test fit it into the piece of pipe that I welded on to the tube going down for the steering.

When it turned freely I welded the pipe to the tubing and ground everthing flush. There will be a rod going down though the down tube from what was the top of the forks to the bottom of the tube and the pitman arm will be attached for the steering.

The idea being that when you want to change from the tricar to motorcycle you remove the handle bars and goose neck and turn the nuts off the steerer tube and drop the tricar and replace it with the regular front wheel/forks so you have a motorcycle.

Hope to have more done tomorrow so you have a better idea where this is all going.

Steve.

 

[silverbear]

Very cool, Steve. You are taking a pipe dream idea of a convertible Indian into a real bike. .. two wheeler to three and back again at will. Awesome!
SB