Indian Tadpole
- Thread starter silverbear
- Start date
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
(In announcer voice) And now, back to our regular programming...
Curtis sent another photo for clarification and the following commentary,
"As you can see the Monark on the left has flat blade with the U dropouts. What will be done is weld the slot shout. I will put a brass bolt in there and weld around it ( weld won't stick to brass or copper )
Also if you look close the Monark has kind of a opening between the cross bars that is were the U brackets or rod suports go. I made them to fit the Monark BUT they can be cut and reshaped. and probably welded to the front of other forks like the worksman.
The one I got from Steve is like the one on the right and will work just fine it looks close enough to a Monark that it will look the same when done. Its a ladies so I have to shorten the top tube.
So when I get to welding and drilling I will post some pictures of all I do,so will be easy to understand.
I gues when it comes to forks the only ones I like for this would be like the ones in the picture with the ovel tubes or like the worksman. I might be fussey but to me they are the only ones that look Indian or old school. Thats just me of course. I am sure they are all strong and will work.
If you have any old ones you are going to scrap out I could use the top tube to shorten the ladies, I use it to make a alinement sleve to strengthen the cut. There is no hurry just bring it with you. And if you have any 20" with the ovel tubes like the picture I make lawn orniments out of them only if you are going to scrap them."
Curtis sent another photo for clarification and the following commentary,
"As you can see the Monark on the left has flat blade with the U dropouts. What will be done is weld the slot shout. I will put a brass bolt in there and weld around it ( weld won't stick to brass or copper )
Also if you look close the Monark has kind of a opening between the cross bars that is were the U brackets or rod suports go. I made them to fit the Monark BUT they can be cut and reshaped. and probably welded to the front of other forks like the worksman.
The one I got from Steve is like the one on the right and will work just fine it looks close enough to a Monark that it will look the same when done. Its a ladies so I have to shorten the top tube.
So when I get to welding and drilling I will post some pictures of all I do,so will be easy to understand.
I gues when it comes to forks the only ones I like for this would be like the ones in the picture with the ovel tubes or like the worksman. I might be fussey but to me they are the only ones that look Indian or old school. Thats just me of course. I am sure they are all strong and will work.
If you have any old ones you are going to scrap out I could use the top tube to shorten the ladies, I use it to make a alinement sleve to strengthen the cut. There is no hurry just bring it with you. And if you have any 20" with the ovel tubes like the picture I make lawn orniments out of them only if you are going to scrap them."
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Curtis,
If what you already have is suitable, go for it. I'm less concerned with it looking just like an old Indian than Steve may be. If you like them, that's plenty good enough for me. They are already going to be way better than I ever imagined. Besides, I'm departing from authenticity with 1939 Hiawatha fenders and fender ornament. I'm mostly interested in it looking like some kind of early motorcycle and being something I like looking at. And I like all things Indian as you may imagine, so Hiawatha fits right in there in my view. After all, he was a pretty famous Indian, too. Ha!
I think that Steve's build will be more recognizable as the first model of Indian Motorcycle made. Pretty cool stuff. We can talk about what forks of mine you might want. I don't generally keep 20 inchers around, but have one, I think, and will be on the lookout at the dump.
SB
If what you already have is suitable, go for it. I'm less concerned with it looking just like an old Indian than Steve may be. If you like them, that's plenty good enough for me. They are already going to be way better than I ever imagined. Besides, I'm departing from authenticity with 1939 Hiawatha fenders and fender ornament. I'm mostly interested in it looking like some kind of early motorcycle and being something I like looking at. And I like all things Indian as you may imagine, so Hiawatha fits right in there in my view. After all, he was a pretty famous Indian, too. Ha!
I think that Steve's build will be more recognizable as the first model of Indian Motorcycle made. Pretty cool stuff. We can talk about what forks of mine you might want. I don't generally keep 20 inchers around, but have one, I think, and will be on the lookout at the dump.
SB
scotto-
Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Sorry Silverbear, didn't mean to threadjack......I just get a little excited thinkin back to my days in Oz
scotto-
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Scotto,
Nothing to apologize for. Are you then an Ozling or whatever the Aussies call themselves? How it it that you once lived there? See, I'm highjacking my own thread. Ha!
SB
Nothing to apologize for. Are you then an Ozling or whatever the Aussies call themselves? How it it that you once lived there? See, I'm highjacking my own thread. Ha!
SB
scotto-
Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Aw go ahead and post it here. There's just a few of us reading this thread anyway I imagine. The land of Oz is a curious place. So, is you is or is you ain't a ozling?
SB
scotto-
Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Alrighty then. I've never heard of the term Ozling's, but if there is, my first born son would be one of them....along with my first ex-wife. Aussie's tend to call themselves just that.....Aussies. Others will call them Aucker's or digger's but nevermind that. I and we are known as Yank's, seppo's or American's.
Long story short......I went to Oz in 1980 for 6 month's to surf, drink beer, meet girl's and see the wonderful world downunder. After doing such, my 6mo. visa was up so I applied for residency as they had an amnesty at that time that allowed me to. I lived there for 5 yrs., got married, had my first of 4 sons, came back here to visit and the rest is history.
I really love Australia and miss all of the great friends I met over the years. I took my second wife on our honeymoon there and we had a blast!
Ok.....gotta end it somewhere.
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
I've never heard of Ozlings, either. Made it up, meself. Thanks for sharing. Oz remains a place I'd like to see, but doubt I ever will.
SB
SB
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
More from Curtis Fox...
"So this is kind of what the spring activater rods will like like. The one in the picture has a small round tub for a bolt to go through yours will have a small plate inplace of that and will be bolted to the leaf spring.
I picked up some 7/16 rod for the activaters,and some 3/16" by 3/4" flat to day and will cut and file for the ones they could not plasma cut.
One thing is I want to realy thank { LouieMCman } for all his input and help when I started this project, it saved me a lot of gues work...................Curt"
"1940_Indian_440_4-cylinder
Here is another shot of one"
"So this is kind of what the spring activater rods will like like. The one in the picture has a small round tub for a bolt to go through yours will have a small plate inplace of that and will be bolted to the leaf spring.
I picked up some 7/16 rod for the activaters,and some 3/16" by 3/4" flat to day and will cut and file for the ones they could not plasma cut.
One thing is I want to realy thank { LouieMCman } for all his input and help when I started this project, it saved me a lot of gues work...................Curt"
"1940_Indian_440_4-cylinder
Here is another shot of one"
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
It has been awhile since the last post, but a good bit has happened and now that Fasteddy is here from Canada things will start moving along on both builds. I'm going to focus on reporting on mine and leave Steve's build for him to comment on.
We now have an inexpensive welder from HF to do the simple welding of a new sidecar frame for my Indian and engine mounts for both bikes. Yesterday we picked up our Sachs engines in Hutchinson, Minnesota for a round trip of about 500 miles. We stopped in Brainerd to pick up Curtis Fox who is making the leaf spring front forks for our builds and then visited with the seller for a couple of hours. More comment on that later and hopefully some of the photos I took can be salvaged from a photo disc which is behaving badly. Below is my Indian with the Sachs engine zip tied in place.
SB
(Cont.)
We now have an inexpensive welder from HF to do the simple welding of a new sidecar frame for my Indian and engine mounts for both bikes. Yesterday we picked up our Sachs engines in Hutchinson, Minnesota for a round trip of about 500 miles. We stopped in Brainerd to pick up Curtis Fox who is making the leaf spring front forks for our builds and then visited with the seller for a couple of hours. More comment on that later and hopefully some of the photos I took can be salvaged from a photo disc which is behaving badly. Below is my Indian with the Sachs engine zip tied in place.
SB
(Cont.)
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
I was anxious today to set the engine in place to see how it was going to fit. Thanks to a well designed intake manifold which is slotted, the tilt of the carburetor can be adjusted, so that is not going to be a problem getting it level. I also wanted to be able to use a full sized pedal sprocket since the engines we have are both meant to be pedal started. A kick start model was made, but these ain't them. No matter, since there is plenty of room for the sprocket and a chain guard as well. There is a decompression valve which is there to make pedal starting easier, so even for gimpy old guys it shouldn't be a problem. Besides, we can always put the rear wheel up on the stand so that it is even easier to start.
I was pleased to hear from the seller that these motors have a lot of low end torque, so that's good. He says they are powerful for 98CC and will go forever. The clutch is manual and is called an oil bath type, but really it is just well greased. We will have to do some fabrication for the linkage to the transmission shifter and I may try a hand grip throttle type three speed shifter I have from a sixties three speed bike. This engine originally had a lever attached to the gas tank with a rod arrangement going to the transmission. Whatever works.
Tomorrow I'll take a picture of Steve's motor sitting next to a China Girl so that you can see how they compare in size. I don't think the dimensions are much greater, but it is good deal heavier. The quality is impressive I think.
SB
I was pleased to hear from the seller that these motors have a lot of low end torque, so that's good. He says they are powerful for 98CC and will go forever. The clutch is manual and is called an oil bath type, but really it is just well greased. We will have to do some fabrication for the linkage to the transmission shifter and I may try a hand grip throttle type three speed shifter I have from a sixties three speed bike. This engine originally had a lever attached to the gas tank with a rod arrangement going to the transmission. Whatever works.
Tomorrow I'll take a picture of Steve's motor sitting next to a China Girl so that you can see how they compare in size. I don't think the dimensions are much greater, but it is good deal heavier. The quality is impressive I think.
SB
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Pictured below are the 98CC Villiars Midget, the 98CC Model 1932 Sachs and a 68CC China Girl HT motor. All are two stroke, the Sachs is two speed and has a wet clutch. The Villiars has no clutch.
Both the Villiars and Sachs are wider and heavier (Sachs must be at least twice the weight of the HT motor). An extra wide crank or bent pedal arms will be needed for either the Villiars or Sachs mounted in frame.
SB
Both the Villiars and Sachs are wider and heavier (Sachs must be at least twice the weight of the HT motor). An extra wide crank or bent pedal arms will be needed for either the Villiars or Sachs mounted in frame.
SB
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Steve needed to decide which engine to use on his build, the 2 speed Sachs or the Villiars. We are in agreement that the looks of the Villiars is special and would fit in nicely with his tribute to the first model of Indian, the Camelback.
In the end, he too chose the Sachs. It is a much simpler installation when you consider that all he needs to make it go is a driven hub of the right size on the rear wheel... in this case he is choosing to use a MM hub adapter with a 32 tooth sprocket on a Bendix coaster brake hub. The Sachs originally used a 28 tooth sprocket, but Steve felt that he wanted lower gearing since his bike will be strictly a tri-car. Mine will be a convertible from two wheeled bike to sidecar and only occasionally (such as a fourth of July parade) be used as a tri-car. Mine will want to have faster gearing so I have gone with a 30 tooth for better top end. I should still have good start off and hill climbing power even with the sidecar. Dave, the seller of the Sachs engines said that typically the Sachs was set up to run with a top speed of 40 or thereabouts. I figure a top speed of 32 to 35 should be plenty as I will more likely be under thirty in two wheeled mode and under 25 in sidecar mode. As a tri-car I doubt I would try running it at even 20.
The Villiars will get set aside for a tricycle build Steve is planning. Had he chosen the Villiars there would have been a much different drive setup involving a belt drive, rear wheel sheave, jack shaft and automatic clutch. As a power source for the trike he will be able to place the engine in back of the seat as he sees fit and can use the kick start assembly which is not shown in the photos.
Beyond this point there will be some splitting off in threads in order to keep the focus of this one on what it is supposed to be about... an Indian tri-car. Since that his what Steve is building from the get go it makes sense for him to continue here.
My build is becoming something different that what it started out to be in large part due to the fenders and fender ornament I'll be using from a 1939 Hiawatha. So although I will refer to it as an Indian Hiawatha it will make no attempt to look like the second model Indian came out with. It will be an "Indian" never made, but will have a definite early motorcycle look. I'll start a separate thread of that name "Indian Hiawatha" soon. When my build involves the tri-car front end it will reappear in this thread.
There will also be a separate thread for Steve's sidecar frame he is making for my second sidecar made from a Grumman Canoe. Separate threads should make it easier to follow for anyone interested in making the sidecar, the frame, the first Indian tribute, etc.
SB
In the end, he too chose the Sachs. It is a much simpler installation when you consider that all he needs to make it go is a driven hub of the right size on the rear wheel... in this case he is choosing to use a MM hub adapter with a 32 tooth sprocket on a Bendix coaster brake hub. The Sachs originally used a 28 tooth sprocket, but Steve felt that he wanted lower gearing since his bike will be strictly a tri-car. Mine will be a convertible from two wheeled bike to sidecar and only occasionally (such as a fourth of July parade) be used as a tri-car. Mine will want to have faster gearing so I have gone with a 30 tooth for better top end. I should still have good start off and hill climbing power even with the sidecar. Dave, the seller of the Sachs engines said that typically the Sachs was set up to run with a top speed of 40 or thereabouts. I figure a top speed of 32 to 35 should be plenty as I will more likely be under thirty in two wheeled mode and under 25 in sidecar mode. As a tri-car I doubt I would try running it at even 20.
The Villiars will get set aside for a tricycle build Steve is planning. Had he chosen the Villiars there would have been a much different drive setup involving a belt drive, rear wheel sheave, jack shaft and automatic clutch. As a power source for the trike he will be able to place the engine in back of the seat as he sees fit and can use the kick start assembly which is not shown in the photos.
Beyond this point there will be some splitting off in threads in order to keep the focus of this one on what it is supposed to be about... an Indian tri-car. Since that his what Steve is building from the get go it makes sense for him to continue here.
My build is becoming something different that what it started out to be in large part due to the fenders and fender ornament I'll be using from a 1939 Hiawatha. So although I will refer to it as an Indian Hiawatha it will make no attempt to look like the second model Indian came out with. It will be an "Indian" never made, but will have a definite early motorcycle look. I'll start a separate thread of that name "Indian Hiawatha" soon. When my build involves the tri-car front end it will reappear in this thread.
There will also be a separate thread for Steve's sidecar frame he is making for my second sidecar made from a Grumman Canoe. Separate threads should make it easier to follow for anyone interested in making the sidecar, the frame, the first Indian tribute, etc.
SB
Attachments
Silverbear that sachs fits your frame perfict. They are awesome motors, glad I got to see them up close. Unbelevable how compact they are for haveing a transmision in them.
Althow I think the Villars would look more Indian I think steve should run the Sachs...........Curt
Althow I think the Villars would look more Indian I think steve should run the Sachs...........Curt
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Hey Curt,
Yes, I love the way the Sachs fills up the frame. I have it zip tied in place right now and no doubt it will be situated a little lower and maybe with a slightly different tilt. but it will fit and with a full sized pedal sprocket under it, which is what I wanted to be sure of.
We had a little set back with the sidecar frame yesterday when Steve finally gave up on the new harbor freight welder. I only have 110 V. power and the 90 amp 110 model HF sells doesn't have enough punch to make a good weld. At least this one doesn't. So back to HF today to return it. A hundred miles to Duluth will kill another work day, but it is rainy anyway and we need a decent welder. After Duluth we head on to Grand Rapids for a more powerful 110v welder made by Hobart, I think Steve said it is 120 amps. With a working welder we can finish up the sidecar frame and engine mounts.
I learned yesterday that the one piece wide pedal cranks are out of stock and will be for months from the only source I know of. It looks like we'll be going with the high priced spread in three piece cranks requiring an additional expense in a bottom bracket adapter. Whatever it takes, I guess. Maybe I can bend one up from a stock Schwinn crank, but without an oxy torch that won't be easy. I have cranks, so will try it to see if I can save seventy five bucks.
Hows that awesome leaf spring fork coming along? Boy, is that going to make the Indian Hiawatha look good! I can't tell you how excited I am about all aspects of this build... the frame, the motor, the canoe sidecar and your fork. Woohoo!
SB
Yes, I love the way the Sachs fills up the frame. I have it zip tied in place right now and no doubt it will be situated a little lower and maybe with a slightly different tilt. but it will fit and with a full sized pedal sprocket under it, which is what I wanted to be sure of.
We had a little set back with the sidecar frame yesterday when Steve finally gave up on the new harbor freight welder. I only have 110 V. power and the 90 amp 110 model HF sells doesn't have enough punch to make a good weld. At least this one doesn't. So back to HF today to return it. A hundred miles to Duluth will kill another work day, but it is rainy anyway and we need a decent welder. After Duluth we head on to Grand Rapids for a more powerful 110v welder made by Hobart, I think Steve said it is 120 amps. With a working welder we can finish up the sidecar frame and engine mounts.
I learned yesterday that the one piece wide pedal cranks are out of stock and will be for months from the only source I know of. It looks like we'll be going with the high priced spread in three piece cranks requiring an additional expense in a bottom bracket adapter. Whatever it takes, I guess. Maybe I can bend one up from a stock Schwinn crank, but without an oxy torch that won't be easy. I have cranks, so will try it to see if I can save seventy five bucks.
Hows that awesome leaf spring fork coming along? Boy, is that going to make the Indian Hiawatha look good! I can't tell you how excited I am about all aspects of this build... the frame, the motor, the canoe sidecar and your fork. Woohoo!
SB
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
The HF welder was plugged directly into the power source and Steve was pretty underwhelmed with the way it was made, etc. which is understandable with how inexpensive it is. We went to Duluth today and returned it, picked up a Hobart in Virginia, MN. which looks like a nice welder with adjustable amperage up to 125 and adjustable wire feed. It is much heavier and cost more, of course, but this one should handle anything we want to do with bikes including frame work. So, we're good to go once the rainy weather passes. After grumbling for a couple days there, Steve's smiling again and ready to make some sparks.
SB
SB
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
The HF welder was plugged directly into the power source and Steve was pretty underwhelmed with the way it was made, etc. which is understandable with how inexpensive it is. We went to Duluth today and returned it, picked up a Hobart in Virginia, MN. which looks like a nice welder with adjustable amperage up to 125 and adjustable wire feed. It is much heavier and cost more, of course, but this one should handle anything we want to do with bikes including frame work. So, we're good to go once the rainy weather passes. After grumbling for a couple days there, Steve's smiling again and ready to make some sparks.
SB
SB