Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
What ever happened to FOG and his hub spindles?
Bike builders that have machine tools/shops
- Thread starter Tom from Rubicon
- Start date
Ralph hop
Well-Known Member
Recently I've decided to go with using a peddle crank and freewheel on the board tracker project and placing the reduction assembly on the left side of the crank spindle (5/8) shaft. To accomplish this I'll weld a primary pulley to a sprocket on a 1" keyed shaft and then remove the keyed shaft and drill for press fitment of (1 3/8") OD bearings. I hope to accomplish this using my drill press. I know others like Rick C. have done similar. Was wondering if anyone has the info on what size bit to use for press fitment of 1 3/8 bearings. Was thinking (1 23/64") size bit but unsure. The precision of the drill bit and drill chuck would also factor into it. Maybe I am just overthinking it but don't want to waste time and resources. Been there before!
indian22
Well-Known Member
Ralph I used a lathe and boring bar to go a thou undersize for a press fit on one build and used thread lock adhesive, red, to make certain it stays put. Too tight a fit will warp the bearing cage though heat will be necessary to remove the bearing after the adhesive sets up. I did drill one reduction drive with a drill press with a boring head setup & it worked fine for awhile but I had to build it again a couple of years later after it wallowed out. I also built one using oil bronze bushings and that worked for about a year the long term solution is actual machine work. It's going to be really difficult to hold the tolerances you require with a home shop drill press even using a boring head and bar.
Rick C
Rick C
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
What Rick said pretty much. You talking of drilling to fit a bearing left me speechless. Fifty years drilling holes and even the
newest best geometries, drills create a holes slightly larger than their nominal size.
Rick mentioned Loctite Threadlocker Red 271. Which is great for a near permanent assembly.
I'll go green. LOCTITE® 609.
Years ago (alot of my stories start this way) I worked for a guy that had bought a very used golf course gang mower.
Reel bearings, as in all of them had spun. Good reason to sell it eh? He is like how can we fix this? Meaning me.
609 is rather viscous = take up a thou. or two. Did back then. Another happy customer.
Like Rick said, .001" press fit is industry standard with rare exceptions. The .001", .0005" per side compression has a spring like quality engaging the bore it is pressed into.
Been said so many times. A few photos of what you want will save us guessing.
It sounds like you want to replicate Pat's reduction drive on a 5/8" pedalshaft.
One afterthought Ralph, concentricity of all sprockets is a must.
Tom
newest best geometries, drills create a holes slightly larger than their nominal size.
Rick mentioned Loctite Threadlocker Red 271. Which is great for a near permanent assembly.
I'll go green. LOCTITE® 609.
Years ago (alot of my stories start this way) I worked for a guy that had bought a very used golf course gang mower.
Reel bearings, as in all of them had spun. Good reason to sell it eh? He is like how can we fix this? Meaning me.
609 is rather viscous = take up a thou. or two. Did back then. Another happy customer.
Like Rick said, .001" press fit is industry standard with rare exceptions. The .001", .0005" per side compression has a spring like quality engaging the bore it is pressed into.
Been said so many times. A few photos of what you want will save us guessing.
It sounds like you want to replicate Pat's reduction drive on a 5/8" pedalshaft.
One afterthought Ralph, concentricity of all sprockets is a must.
Tom
Ralph hop
Well-Known Member
Even if done in a true spinning machine, sadly I don't have much faith in the precision of parts and tooling lately, I'm a big stickler for tolerances. Don't even want to mention the crappiness of the repro motobecane 89 hub. Already had to replace the inner spacer with a hand cut and filed spacer and measured with micrometer for filing it square to the inner races. The hub has a jump in it maybe a few thousandths. Was finally able to get the sprocket rotating clean by soldering with oxy/acetylene torch and redrilling the sprocket bolt holes.
indian22
Well-Known Member
I'd like a dollar for every post dealing with sorry chain from China or anywhere I suppose. Chain woes are of pandemic proportions one would surmise yet I've used the 415 kit chain on all of my CG builds and still run it on three of my moto bikes and have never broken a chain. Tens of thousands of miles on these bikes & no breaks or chain jumps. Tom hit on concentricity & on all rotating parts that's huge. The faster a part rotates and the longer it's in operation accentuates any degree of excess runout variance. 4 sprockets are involved in the drive line you're going to employ along with three axles : engine output, pedal bracket reduction gear set and the rear hub axle. All individual element run out added to the next etc. and the total can be very messy. I'll cut this short cause your a smart guy & I'll just address the last element which is the rear wheel/hub/sprocket setup. This requires a really true wheel/hub/axle and that includes the proper installation of this component set. Some guys get everything perfect on the truing stand then settle for good enough when mounting to the drops. If a hub adapter is used it should be locked in place with the sprocket to be used attached to the hub during the "truing test" on the stand, not just after mounting to the bike. This way one knows the complete assembly is true prior to mounting. On your moped hub/sprocket setup just check concentricity at the rim edge and the face/edge of the sprocket with a dial indicator. No guess work on mounting to the frame once you know for certain the rear rotating assemblies are spot on. Once the wheel is secured to the drops any tolerance issues are due to poor installation and/or frame issues.
Absolutely straight chain lines for both the primary and final chains are critical as is proper chain tensions. One way to prove to yourself that there are not drive train concentricity issues is to get the rear tire off the ground and rotate the rear wheel 360 degrees while keeping your hand on the final drive chain . If you feel the chain tighten at some point and loosen at another after having set proper tension during installation then you know there is a problem with concentricity.
Getting it really close is the real world goal with chains and when you do then chains don't tend to break nor do sprockets wear as quickly. Bikes are less noisy and run smoother. Riding is really fun when you're not always breaking down!
Rick C.
Absolutely straight chain lines for both the primary and final chains are critical as is proper chain tensions. One way to prove to yourself that there are not drive train concentricity issues is to get the rear tire off the ground and rotate the rear wheel 360 degrees while keeping your hand on the final drive chain . If you feel the chain tighten at some point and loosen at another after having set proper tension during installation then you know there is a problem with concentricity.
Getting it really close is the real world goal with chains and when you do then chains don't tend to break nor do sprockets wear as quickly. Bikes are less noisy and run smoother. Riding is really fun when you're not always breaking down!
Rick C.
Ralph hop
Well-Known Member
I appreciate the solid info and advice from both of you. The more time spent sourcing parts and pieces and experience with the work I've done the more I can justify the purchase of a lathe. The lathe I've been looking at has a 1 1/8" spindle bore and the ability to cut right hand and left hand threads. I'm assuming this could be used cutting threads to make 1" fork steerer tubes. Cut sintered bronze and plenty of other things. It's a commitment and the thought of where to put a six to eight hundred pounds machine! I have yet to get this bike on the road or even rolling yet but I'm finally in the process of doing so. Just need to order spokes and weld together an intake manifold and get it pieced together. DOT rated enduro tires and working pedals are on my latest list of requirements. I do have all the pieces for the left free floating assembly. The sprocket and pulley must be fitted to their own hub and the two hubs then welded together. I've opted for 3/4" bore hubs and using the bronze flanged bushings for the time being. Belt primary and chain to the back. I also now have an antique syringe which I'll mount on the bike to keep the clutch and the rotating assembly oiled after each ride. Ride On!
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
Just so you know Ralph, Rick and I are or at least I have maybe services to help you out.
Tom
Tom
Ralph hop
Well-Known Member
I appreciate it Tom, currently just trying to learn from experience and I'm sure this will not be the last iteration of the reduction assembly and I hope strong that these bikes will be a life long endeavor for me. The need to make pieces and parts is becoming more of a need now more than ever due to cost and availability which equals down time for me.
indian22
Well-Known Member
Yes thanks Ralph. Several things went through my mind as I read your latest post and I'll lump them together. As a hobby for guys with mechanical interests motos rate a solid A for so many reasons that a book would be required to touch on just the basic reasons. As machine tools go I prefer the lathe if I could only have one machine, but a mill is solid in the second position. The 1& 1/8" spindle is splendid for bike work & as my little machine can only handle 7/8" stock through the bore; I use fixtures to get around the really small bore & order a lot more 3/4" stock than normal for me.
That small amount of bore increase will actually be huge during day to day operations even in a hobby shop.
There are certainly some items which are difficult to source, but even so it's amazing to me that so much of what I used to fabricate is just a click and payment away; yet being able to turn a part from stock is such a great option Saving money isn't huge with me but there's that too, and modifying fabricated pieces is a factor as well. I suppose creativity & satisfaction are factors too and machine tools help in this area.
Bronze bushings in the reduction drive... I included grease fittings for frequent lube, every 50 miles or so, with mine, oil light bronze are really good quality and if the drive is concentric they will last a good while, but as soon as you can build a roller setup that's the long term solution which I see you going to.
I've several bikes that are in their third or fourth iteration so for me I'd say as long as I can wrench my hobby will have continuity for me. I've more than enough bikes already so I'm fairly reluctant to start new frame up builds. Though I've given several away I still have ten motos to tinker with. I see no reason to doubt that this will be a long term endeavor for you as well.
Rick C.
That small amount of bore increase will actually be huge during day to day operations even in a hobby shop.
There are certainly some items which are difficult to source, but even so it's amazing to me that so much of what I used to fabricate is just a click and payment away; yet being able to turn a part from stock is such a great option Saving money isn't huge with me but there's that too, and modifying fabricated pieces is a factor as well. I suppose creativity & satisfaction are factors too and machine tools help in this area.
Bronze bushings in the reduction drive... I included grease fittings for frequent lube, every 50 miles or so, with mine, oil light bronze are really good quality and if the drive is concentric they will last a good while, but as soon as you can build a roller setup that's the long term solution which I see you going to.
I've several bikes that are in their third or fourth iteration so for me I'd say as long as I can wrench my hobby will have continuity for me. I've more than enough bikes already so I'm fairly reluctant to start new frame up builds. Though I've given several away I still have ten motos to tinker with. I see no reason to doubt that this will be a long term endeavor for you as well.
Rick C.
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
I got a message from HR 6/2/21. " You have not been an active employee for a year, retrieve your tools or they will be disposed of".
Not sure what that meant, But knowing the d!cks running the the place since to owner's sold out were ruthless.
Time to say good bye. A buddy and me retrieved my work tools. Thursday forenoon.
Now becomes the huge problem. I tooled up my machine shop twenty years ago. The roll around tool base i bought three years ago to supplant a Craftsman roll around case had drawer glide problems. Over taxed? You bet, had served me the last fifteen years.
Bought a Menards behemoth to stand in its stead.
I repaired the Craftsman chest glides for more than the original cost of the chest. Go figure?
The Menards RA just made into my shop Thursday. So I now in my shop I have two tool sets. The one coming home from my last employment has my personal tools, acquired over the last fifty years. And the home shop set which are mostly in wood cases too. Something fifteen years ago has arisen. Down sizing, I spose it is for the best.
Photo of mostly 10K.
Tom
Not sure what that meant, But knowing the d!cks running the the place since to owner's sold out were ruthless.
Time to say good bye. A buddy and me retrieved my work tools. Thursday forenoon.
Now becomes the huge problem. I tooled up my machine shop twenty years ago. The roll around tool base i bought three years ago to supplant a Craftsman roll around case had drawer glide problems. Over taxed? You bet, had served me the last fifteen years.
Bought a Menards behemoth to stand in its stead.
I repaired the Craftsman chest glides for more than the original cost of the chest. Go figure?
The Menards RA just made into my shop Thursday. So I now in my shop I have two tool sets. The one coming home from my last employment has my personal tools, acquired over the last fifty years. And the home shop set which are mostly in wood cases too. Something fifteen years ago has arisen. Down sizing, I spose it is for the best.
Photo of mostly 10K.
Tom
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
In # 1054 you will note two tool sets are claimed. Not tool boxes or total rolling chests. The bloody 17 ton punch press that came in six years ago did not help spatially. Right now my shop is Fooked. Got a sore back from the move.
Heat pad going on. I'll see if I can produce some photos to illustrate my town dump problem.
Tom
Heat pad going on. I'll see if I can produce some photos to illustrate my town dump problem.
Tom
indian22
Well-Known Member
Wistfully read Tom. I consider you quite blessed having old friends in your shop. I've sold four shops over the last forty something years and only kept a few basic tools each time, never even a full set of hand tools except for my last sale. Replacement was increasingly expensive and things were always missing when required. I still look around thinking I have a tool only to realize that I once or twice had a tool for that function.
I suppose I threw my tools into the deal to prevent a wrench from getting stuck in the works of the sale, but doubt that was ever a concern to the motivated buyers.
Rick C.
I suppose I threw my tools into the deal to prevent a wrench from getting stuck in the works of the sale, but doubt that was ever a concern to the motivated buyers.
Rick C.
Greg58
Well-Known Member
I had the same problem in 2015 when I left SEARS, I have two tool boxes in my shop till this day. All drawers on each contain the same tools, not as organized as they once we're but still the same. I arranged both boxes that way years ago to simply things, it's easier to tell someone where to look for a tool when you've got your hands full.
Greg58
Well-Known Member
Once when working on a truck in my shop here I was under the truck and asked my son to hand me a tool, he asked where to look and in which box, I told him either and which drawer. My wife says I need to get a bigger box and combine them, I like being able to roll either box right in front of what I'm working on.
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
When I get a chance Greg, I will photo the contents of my work roll around. Having mostly a Job Shop resume.
Time was only for making profit. Digging to find a tool was frowned on. I didn't start that way, my dad's organization was largely seek and you will find. Then he built a wall cabinet with peg board and hooks which helped as did my buying him a Craftsman roll around and top box. Contents of which never really developed a theme.
Photos, side shot of my work tool chest and roll around.
The R.A. is too f'n tall to stack the chest on the bottom till or me too short. Other two, a AMF Road Master followed me home from recycling.
Tom
Time was only for making profit. Digging to find a tool was frowned on. I didn't start that way, my dad's organization was largely seek and you will find. Then he built a wall cabinet with peg board and hooks which helped as did my buying him a Craftsman roll around and top box. Contents of which never really developed a theme.
Photos, side shot of my work tool chest and roll around.
The R.A. is too f'n tall to stack the chest on the bottom till or me too short. Other two, a AMF Road Master followed me home from recycling.
Tom
Attachments
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
For those not following the Flyer saga. I offer this.
(46) 79cc Sportsman Flyer build | Motorized Bicycle Engine Kit Forum (motorbicycling.com)
Bringing home my factory tool set is a spatial problem, there is no room in the shop at present, but today, a full kit, organized to get things done.
It was a home coming of the tool set, I had not at hand in over a year. Old friends, reunited. Everything in it's place.
Photos of todays work.
Tom
(46) 79cc Sportsman Flyer build | Motorized Bicycle Engine Kit Forum (motorbicycling.com)
Bringing home my factory tool set is a spatial problem, there is no room in the shop at present, but today, a full kit, organized to get things done.
It was a home coming of the tool set, I had not at hand in over a year. Old friends, reunited. Everything in it's place.
Photos of todays work.
Tom
