Ontario Canada, MTO info

[80ccdan]

hello, anymore horror or great stories about the law and these bikes? i live in mississauga, anybody else?
thanks
dan
ps, great site!

 

[MadC]

hello, anymore horror or great stories about the law and these bikes? i live in mississauga, anybody else?
thanks
dan
ps, great site!

I live in Etobicoke... right next to you...


I have had no problems riding them past cops, but I do ghost pedal when I notice them. I wear a helmet and have a light, those are a must even for a regular bicycle and cops ticketing.

Cheers

 

[CSwaterloo]

from

Motor Vehicle Safety Act



from

The Highway Traffic Act


the mvsa definition is from 1993, dont know if they updated it.

what do they mean by "capable of being driven or drawn on roads by any means other than muscular power exclusively"? if it can be drawn by muscular power only or by muscular power and motor at once, or just the motor w/o muscular power, then its good to go?

according to hta

then theres also this from hta



so if its 49cc or under its considered a moped and the person riding it gets shafted with no registration/insurance, but if its an "80cc" it doesnt fit into any category and its good to go? doesnt say anything about whether its a factory made moped or a bicycle with a motor attached.

what sort of motorized bike owners have gotten away with riding on the street? 50cc 2 stroke engine framemounted on bicycle with hand operated clutch/driven gear box? how about 80cc 2 stroke engine framemounted on bicycle with hand operated clutch/driven gear box? other?

where to look for this information?

The friction drive is not considered a clutch because in order to drive you must HOLD the lever. A clutch RELEASES when the handle is held. If your friction drive is set up that it drives UNTIL you pull the handle, it becomes a "clutch". Gear "reduction" on the motor is not illegal, but multiple, shiftable speeds are.

MANY older,legal "mopeds" used manually applied friction drive (Solex, Motobecane, and others).

 

[CSwaterloo]

There is an "exemption" on the books in Ontario, releasing electrically powered "power assisted bicycles" that meet specific requirements from the HTA requirements.
No such "exemption" exists for non-electric "power assisted Bicycles" - so the requirements of the HTA are binding. They must meet all the requirements of either a Moped, an LSM, or a motorcycle in Ontario.

 

[MadC]

I'm in Toronto and I got stopped by a cop and told it was illegal..

illegal because it can't be insured. under 50cc can't be insured... over 50cc it can't be insured because you as an individual built it, not a manufactured model produced by a company.

I was threatened with fines but let off cus I played stupid and many people use them.

It's funny how you can buy them, but it becomes illegal to ride once installed. I was told to use it off road only, or in parking lots.

So I basically just keep an eye out when riding, and I'm possibly thinking of going with an electric hub... they seem to be getting better as time goes on, and it might be less likely I get stopped for having one... But I like the sound of the roaring little engine..

turns heads.

 

[Zmadtrapper]

I got stopped by the police in Peterborough, the beginning of July and was given over $5000 in fines. No lic, no ins, no helmet, no plate & unsafe. Had not been bothered in Wasaga Beach or Orillia

 

[silverbear]

Those are some serious fines. Much as I love motorbicycling I think I'd go a different route in Canada if I lived or was visiting there. $5,000.00 seems excessive punishment. Confiscating the bike would be bad enough, but in these hard times a fine like yours could put somebody under. I guess for me I'd find an older moped, like a Puch, and do it legal. Not the same, I know, but still good.
It is hard to make any sense of this. Electric bikes and pedal bikes are OK, so it isn't something about bikes sharing the road. And manufactured scooters and mopeds and motorcycles are OK which are also sharing the road. It is gas motored bicycles... big criminal activity. If it has to do with emissions, then what about the bazilion chain saws in Canada? Snowmobiles, four wheelers, etc. I just don't get it. As these western economies decline and people have less money to work with it seems to me that it would be in the interest of our governments to assure that people can get to work, to the store, be independent and productive. Not everyone can pedal a bicycle a great distance.
This is all aside from the fun factor. Why is Canada so anal about this? It worries me a bit, in that the same assbackwards legislative non-thinking can easily sneak across the border into the US. So sorry to hear about your excessive fines.
SB

 

[ogre_power]

I can only speak on my experience in Alberta, Canada.

No problems have risen with me operating my bicycle.

I wear safety equipment, drive with courtesy, and obey traffic laws.

Daily I peddle/drive by the various law enforcement officers and give them a friendly wave. They either wave back or give a confused expression. The bicycle police look at me in envy when I climb hills.

Motorists generally appreciate me on the road. I maintain the posted traffic speed and use clear hand signals.

But, I do anticipate some one to attempt to fine me for doing something unlawful in regards to the contraption I operate.

The heavy fines posted here in this thread are mind boggling. Myself, I would challenge any ticket that contradicts the bicycle as a moped or motorcycle.

Best of luck to all enthusiast and riders.

motoped1 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

 

[Vice]

I'm hoping someone could answer this for me.

I want to get a raw 80cc silver slant kit and put it on my bike

I live in ontario

I want to ride it to work

I have no license and dont want to pay for one unless I get a real motorcycle

It's a 10 minute ride on the road and a 20 min ride through the golf course I work at

If I refrain from engaging the motor until I get onto the private property of my work, am I risking being charged with the previously mentioned charges?

If I pedal it on the sidewalk I'm not riding a motorized Vehicle on the road I'm pedaling a bike on the sidewalk that happens to have a motor in it.

Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but it's not completely clear weather or not using the pedals only either on the road or sidewalk will get u in trouble.

 

[ogre_power]

Vice,

Your questions are valid.

My interpretation of your local laws are not and would not be valid.

I suggest you talk to your local authorities.

I did in Alberta and found that all law enforcements concluded unanimously that I have a bicycle. The crown prosecutor also agreed.

My bicycle is a kit. Not intended to be a competitive motored vehicle. The transportation act of Canada enforces safety standards and operation from manufactured vehicles. This is why electric bicycles and mopeds are only mentioned in the national law. Motorized bicycles is a hobbyist venue, no major manufacturer imports them to our country.

New and Alternative Vehicles

The link above applies to you. However the description is vague and the picture provided is clearly a moped, not a bicycle with a motor kit.

Remember, police are people first. They do not know all the laws.

Talk to your local authorities and persistently remind them that you want to ride your bicycle.

Happy riding.

 

[Vice]

Thanks for the response

I'm going to call up the local cop-shop and find out their general consensus on the subject.

To sum things up so far, from what I see, hear and read, it's up to that particular cop to decide to give you a ticket (or two). Then up to the courts (and your $1500 lawyer) weather you get off of the tickets or not. If you choose not to get a lawyer in court, you risk a $5000 fine AND being uninsurable. Which is almost worse than a one time fine.

So what to do.....
(I'll modify this list if the cop shop tells me differently)

Do's
- head light and tail light
- helmet
- rear view (so u can see the cop comming
- don't rip around like a jackass, follow the rules of the road. Respect other people and their cars
- treat using your motor like smoking a joint. You wouldn't blaze a massive Doober right in front of a cop would you?
-just a tip, a 4 stroke motor will not make as much visible exhaust.
-go get your m1, you should have it anyway.


Donts
-ride it on the sidewalk with the motor running
-rip around like you own the world in busy places like a jackass
-give the cop attitude if he/she pulls you over. It's probably best to try an educational stance, if your reading this thread you may already know more about the rules than the cop that you cross paths with.

The moral to this story so far is that in Ontario, if it has a gas motor you must have it plated and insured to ride on the road. That is simply not possible unless you manage to build some sort of hybrid bicycle/motorcycle contraption and manage to get it safetied and insured (good luck with that).

There is no way to lawfully ride a bicycle with a motor on it on the roads with cars in Ontario. Period. Simply slapping a gas motor on a bike and ripping down the road will never be legal here. It's just too dangerous for the rider. Maybe not so much in your eyes but you have to think of what it would be like to have these things being ridden all over the place in a city environment. It would add an element of chaos to the already chaotic mix.

 

[Bynx]

Vice to answer your question, I was riding a moped once. As a cop pulled up behind me I started pedalling like mad to keep up with the motor. I turned it off and kept pedalling. The cop pulled up beside me and pulled me over. I told him the motor didnt work. He said it didnt matter, it had a motor and had to be licensed. He gave me a warning and told me to pedal myself home and not to be caught with it without its plates.

Now a question for those who might know. If a small gas motor is affixed to an ebike to supply electrical charge to keep the battery topped up would this be legal?

 

[Vice]

Vice to answer your question, I was riding a moped once. As a cop pulled up behind me I started pedalling like mad to keep up with the motor. I turned it off and kept pedalling. The cop pulled up beside me and pulled me over. I told him the motor didnt work. He said it didnt matter, it had a motor and had to be licensed. He gave me a warning and told me to pedal myself home and not to be caught with it without its plates.

Now a question for those who might know. If a small gas motor is affixed to an ebike to supply electrical charge to keep the battery topped up would this be legal?

I was afraid of that, it's not going to stop me from riding it. However I will be sure to avoid the cops as I usually do anyway. Lol



It would be nice to see a mounting system that is designed to accept and release JUST the motor from the bike quickly.

 

[peter carswell]

It is very hard to avoid the cops especially the ones here in hamilton one of them snuck up behind me this evening and pulled me over i told him i was just going around the block to use up all my gas for the winter lucky for me he bought it as i was 20 blocks from home lol and he noticed that as my address was on my id i do not have a licence of any kind he was nice enough to let me of with a warning and i had to peddle the rest of the way home also i was pulled over last year and was handed 500 bucks in fines and i never paid them so i guess i was right on one thing they have no record to hold the fines against

 

[silverbear]

Sorry to hear about the latest encounter with the cops, Peter. It is so wrong that Canada is so down on bikes with gas engines. What a heavy handed approach to what should be a viable transportation alternative. I hope the iron fist does not come down in Minnesota. I don't mind if safety equipment is required or an inspection... fine me if I break traffic laws or speed. Especially with this economy and high gas prices, we need alternatives. Best to you boys in Canada. I guess the rich politicians don't ride motor bicycles. They were probably never boys, either.
SB

 

[Blakenstein]

Sorry to hear about the latest encounter with the cops, Peter. It is so wrong that Canada is so down on bikes with gas engines. What a heavy handed approach to what should be a viable transportation alternative. I hope the iron fist does not come down in Minnesota. I don't mind if safety equipment is required or an inspection... fine me if I break traffic laws or speed. Especially with this economy and high gas prices, we need alternatives. Best to you boys in Canada. I guess the rich politicians don't ride motor bicycles. They were probably never boys, either.
SB

High Silverbear: Its been along time!-good to see yas on my com. this mornin, howver, I never did like this Ontario thread much because it's such a downer. 90% of run-ins with the law, comes from this thread.
Well I signed in to say that Ontario is not all of Canada. Canada is big and Ontario is only one Province(State) Anyway, just like U.S.A., some places are cool, to ride and some places are not.In the past four years,that I've been riding my mb, I have not been stopped even once!!Last week, I had to go to the Police station ,and was told to come back in 2 hours-I left my mb parked at the station locked to a pole, and went for a walk down town. Came back and did my buisness,and nobody said a thing. Anyway, Edmonton is not that small. We don't have just one Home Depot in this little northern community,-we have three of them.

 

[peter carswell]

The funny thing is i rode my bike for over a year without being pulled over i made sure my bike is safe i have installed good brakes a tail light a head light and horn and i always use a helmet when riding and stay within the speed limit if i ride at night i make sure to cut my engine on small streets and peddle along i also have an electric bike and have never had issues with that i trully hope they let us ride the gas ones in the future as i do not really see them being bad for the enviroment compared to electric with the electric ones you have to dispose of lead acid batteries some how but with my gas one every thing is burned as i go and with the new two stroke oils available there is hardly no smoke coming from my tail pipe

 

[fff]

When the Motor Vehicle Safety Act was updated to address some ambiguity surrounding power assisted bicycles, a full analysis statement concerning the amended laws was submitted and is available at Canada Gazette

There is some damning stuff in here regarding our bicycles:

The ICBC and Ford Motor Company raised questions regarding the use of power sources other than an electric motor. Ford pointed out that the proposed definition excluded solar-powered methods of propulsion and low-emission combustion engines. The ICBC wondered whether the amendment would allow the use of hybrid systems that combine an electric motor with a combustion engine. The final definition was clarified to eliminate all ambiguity. An important goal of this amendment is to provide a safe, viable, and non-polluting alternative to conventional means of transportation. This alternative means must also perform on a level comparable to that of the average cyclist using a conventional bicycle. A bicycle equipped with an electric motor meets these conditions. Bicycles equipped with a combustion engine are subject to the requirements governing limited-speed motorcycles or motorcycles. The Department will consider amending the definition when other pollution-free power sources become available, at which time it will analyze the impact of such new power sources on the safety of riders and the public.

 

[Chriscraft112]

A bicycle that's been modified with one of the popular frame mounted gasoline engine kits on the market in Canada is far from being a moped or motorcycle as per how the MTO or even the federal government describes one and given that how can you be convicted on things that relate to the illegal or improper operation of a motorcycle, moped or whatever else? It's pretty easy to see and prove that a bicycle that has been modified to use any of the frame mounted gasoline engine kits available in Canada through Zoom Bicycles, Tsunami Bike, Kijiji venders ect is not the same as a factory built moped. About all we have in common with a factory built moped is pedals! Also when was the last time you seen a motorcycle or motor scooter with pedals and 26" wheels? Fact is we have a reduction gearbox, a hand operated clutch, more than 49cc, 26" wheels, no rear suspension and clearly no moped comes close in function or resemblance. One must also consider that a modified bicycle was originally manufactured and sold as a bicycle, the addition of a gasoline engine kit does not change the fact that it's still a bicycle. I mean if you remove the engine kit what is it? A bicycle? If you remove the engine from a moped or motorcycle does the MTO and HTA still not define it as a moped or motorcycle? Yes for the purpose of the HTA a bicycle modified with the addition of a frame mounted gasoline engine kit might be considered a motor vehicle but would it not be a motor vehicle for which there is currently no definition or classification? No definition or classification makes registering it, insuring it and whatever else not readily available and if none of those things are readily available how have you broken any laws? Being issued a ticket or summons implies that you have broken the law and it's up to the crown and the police to prove that you have indeed broken the law, any lawyer will tell you this. Many hours of research and consultation with the MTO have proven that there are no laws in Ontario for or against the use of a bicycle that has been modified with the addition of the frame mounted gasoline engine kits that are readily available to the Canadian public from the Canadian sources I mentioned. If you have information that says otherwise please post it so others can read it and interpret it.




Hogwash, there are no laws on the books in Ontario that say such things...if you have info that says otherwise please post it!




I've said it before and I'll say it again if you want to operate a moped, motor scooter or a motorcycle in Ontario your better off to buy one as opposed to trying to build one at home...you'll save yourself a big bunch of headaches.




Trying to register a bicycle that's been modified with one of the frame mounted gasoline engine kits with the MTO as a home built moped is a scam waiting to be uncovered that's likely to land you in a heap of trouble! You can't change the fact that you have a hand operated clutch and a reduction gearbox...stamping an engine "49cc" that was sold to you as an 80cc is an act of fraud. Ever notice that when you file paper work with the MTO your signature swears that all information provided is truthfull? They have some fairly severe penalties if they find out you have provided them with untruthful information.

.

Rockenstein this will also apply to BC if its a chinese engine added to a 26IN bicycle like you said right?Just want to be sure thanks keith

 

[Chriscraft112]

Disregard that^^^^^