Ontario Canada, MTO info
- Thread starter Rockenstein
- Start date
They will if you have a declaration that it is a moped, which according to this http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/handbook/motorcycles/section1-4-0.shtml
is possible.
is possible.
If this could be done it would have been done years ago by a whole lot of people. They will ask for your manufacturer assigned vin number which will be on the plate the manufacturer put on the moped.
if it doesn't have a manufacturers vin number or plate you have to have the province assign you one and since gasoline powered bicycles are not legal in Canada you can't get one.
The number that the web site is talking about is when the motor vehicles had less than the 17 numbers and digits that are required today. The old ones are grandfathered in. If you get caught trying to sneak one past the province you will be in deeper problems that you ever believed. It's a Federal offence and can carry huge fines and a lengthy stay as a guest of the penitentiary system.
This has been argued many times on here. The answer is always the same. Just make sure you tell the motor vehicle clerk or the police officer your talking to that you motor bike doesn't have a vin number and see what they say.
It's just like trying to register a car with no vin number.
Steve.
if it doesn't have a manufacturers vin number or plate you have to have the province assign you one and since gasoline powered bicycles are not legal in Canada you can't get one.
The number that the web site is talking about is when the motor vehicles had less than the 17 numbers and digits that are required today. The old ones are grandfathered in. If you get caught trying to sneak one past the province you will be in deeper problems that you ever believed. It's a Federal offence and can carry huge fines and a lengthy stay as a guest of the penitentiary system.
This has been argued many times on here. The answer is always the same. Just make sure you tell the motor vehicle clerk or the police officer your talking to that you motor bike doesn't have a vin number and see what they say.
It's just like trying to register a car with no vin number.
Steve.
Bighat
Ontario born and raised Brother. I tweaked the nose of Big Brother and the O.P.P. as well as the lads in T.O. and left a lot of cash behind in the courts. You couldn't pull the crap off today that we did in the early 60's because they would be taking the wheels and locking you away.
The fellas in the then, 23 Traffic Division on Islington gave me the Fast Eddy moniker one night on Islington Ave.
Drove two years with one point left on my license and every cop in that end of town trying to get it. Had to change cars every few weeks to keep them guessing to which car was mine so they could follow it full time.
Outlaw on and ride carefully.
Steve.
Ontario born and raised Brother. I tweaked the nose of Big Brother and the O.P.P. as well as the lads in T.O. and left a lot of cash behind in the courts. You couldn't pull the crap off today that we did in the early 60's because they would be taking the wheels and locking you away.
The fellas in the then, 23 Traffic Division on Islington gave me the Fast Eddy moniker one night on Islington Ave.
Drove two years with one point left on my license and every cop in that end of town trying to get it. Had to change cars every few weeks to keep them guessing to which car was mine so they could follow it full time.Outlaw on and ride carefully.
Steve.
TakeiT,
It has nothing to do with what province you live in. The province can only refine the law such as what age you have to be to ride ect.
It's federal motor vehicle law that banned gasoline motors on bicycles. Ottawa had said no motors on bicycles unless they are electric and not over 500W. They can't go faster than 32 KPH. Look at the pictures in the government sites. If it looks like a moped they are talking about mopeds. If it looks like a bicycle they are talking about bicycles.
Try getting it registered though and let us know how it went.
Steve.
It has nothing to do with what province you live in. The province can only refine the law such as what age you have to be to ride ect.
It's federal motor vehicle law that banned gasoline motors on bicycles. Ottawa had said no motors on bicycles unless they are electric and not over 500W. They can't go faster than 32 KPH. Look at the pictures in the government sites. If it looks like a moped they are talking about mopeds. If it looks like a bicycle they are talking about bicycles.
Try getting it registered though and let us know how it went.
Steve.
HarleyXLH666
Member
Replying to basically all of page 18.
In Winter people drive snowmobiles down my street and I am in fact seeing the dirtbikes and mini bikes on my street as well now and also other motorized bicycles. LOTS OF THEM. They are all over the place here.
Last time I got stopped was because the cop said he did not see me pedalling. Now if I am on the thing I pedal whenever I give it gas so now it is TRULY a motor assisted bicycle.
Due to my stop earlier this year I was looking to get out of the grey area and I called my police here to enquire about a police auction as I want to get an ebike now.
After that they asked if there was anything else they could help me with and I said yes and explained current my bike and the reason for my stop earlier this year was that the officer did not see me pedalling and asked if the way I was riding now with pedalling whenever I give it gas was ok. The person who I Was talking to did not know so I got transferred over to the staff Sargent that was on duty.
I re-explained what I told the previous person to the staff Sargent and explained the bike how it had a gas tank and 49cc motor and he could not figure out why I would have been pulled over if I was following the road rules. (Again the reason I was pulled over is the officer saw my bike moving without me pedalling). I asked if it was OK to use as long as I pedaled whenever I gave it gas and he said I shouldn't even need to pedal. I just need to follow the rules of the road and (basically not be an idiot on the thing -- *NOT THE SARGENTS EXACT WORDS BUT IN A NUTSHELL*) and I should be fine.
That was a word he used. I "SHOULD" be fine. SHOULD. Due to the fact it was an umarked car that got me and I know Niagara has more than 1 unmarked (I now I kill engine know when I see a marked car even though the Sargent said I should be fine) I passed plenty of marked with it running but I do wonder how many unmarked I have passed on it that didn't say anything to me.
Perhaps the officer that stopped me was having a bad day? Was short for quota and reaching the deadline? Has some sort of personal issue with these bikes? It can't be any of those or he would have written me up instead of just a warning. But warning for what if the SARGENT says I should have nothing to worry about.
I dont even get any enjoyment with it now because since my stop I have gotten my G1 licence and if I do get hammered hard for using this thing that will mess with my G1 licence which will allow for real vehicles. But the G1 does no good for getting around alone during the lamea$$ waiting period for G2. If you can prove you can drive in 2 months you should be able to take the G2 in 2 months. NOT 8 months.
I'm so paranoid on this bike its becoming dangerous constantly looking over my shoulder for police just as much as my eyes are actually at the road ahead of me. BUT if I don't see/happen to miss that ONE officer that IS having a bad day and get nailed for $5000 for everything in the book I'm SCREWED.
Ontario is so messed up and so is the GDL licencing system.
In Winter people drive snowmobiles down my street and I am in fact seeing the dirtbikes and mini bikes on my street as well now and also other motorized bicycles. LOTS OF THEM. They are all over the place here.
Last time I got stopped was because the cop said he did not see me pedalling. Now if I am on the thing I pedal whenever I give it gas so now it is TRULY a motor assisted bicycle.
Due to my stop earlier this year I was looking to get out of the grey area and I called my police here to enquire about a police auction as I want to get an ebike now.
After that they asked if there was anything else they could help me with and I said yes and explained current my bike and the reason for my stop earlier this year was that the officer did not see me pedalling and asked if the way I was riding now with pedalling whenever I give it gas was ok. The person who I Was talking to did not know so I got transferred over to the staff Sargent that was on duty.
I re-explained what I told the previous person to the staff Sargent and explained the bike how it had a gas tank and 49cc motor and he could not figure out why I would have been pulled over if I was following the road rules. (Again the reason I was pulled over is the officer saw my bike moving without me pedalling). I asked if it was OK to use as long as I pedaled whenever I gave it gas and he said I shouldn't even need to pedal. I just need to follow the rules of the road and (basically not be an idiot on the thing -- *NOT THE SARGENTS EXACT WORDS BUT IN A NUTSHELL*) and I should be fine.
That was a word he used. I "SHOULD" be fine. SHOULD. Due to the fact it was an umarked car that got me and I know Niagara has more than 1 unmarked (I now I kill engine know when I see a marked car even though the Sargent said I should be fine) I passed plenty of marked with it running but I do wonder how many unmarked I have passed on it that didn't say anything to me.
Perhaps the officer that stopped me was having a bad day? Was short for quota and reaching the deadline? Has some sort of personal issue with these bikes? It can't be any of those or he would have written me up instead of just a warning. But warning for what if the SARGENT says I should have nothing to worry about.
I dont even get any enjoyment with it now because since my stop I have gotten my G1 licence and if I do get hammered hard for using this thing that will mess with my G1 licence which will allow for real vehicles. But the G1 does no good for getting around alone during the lamea$$ waiting period for G2. If you can prove you can drive in 2 months you should be able to take the G2 in 2 months. NOT 8 months.
I'm so paranoid on this bike its becoming dangerous constantly looking over my shoulder for police just as much as my eyes are actually at the road ahead of me. BUT if I don't see/happen to miss that ONE officer that IS having a bad day and get nailed for $5000 for everything in the book I'm SCREWED.
Ontario is so messed up and so is the GDL licencing system.
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2strokechaos
New Member
Signed up just to post here.
Had a two stroke mountain bike road it for 4 months everyday.
Built a four stroke chopper bicycle, got pulled over in 4 days.
2 tickets.
Driving on a suspended licence.
Failure to wear proper motorcycle helmet.
Any suggestions. I want to fight it
Had a two stroke mountain bike road it for 4 months everyday.
Built a four stroke chopper bicycle, got pulled over in 4 days.
2 tickets.
Driving on a suspended licence.
Failure to wear proper motorcycle helmet.
Any suggestions. I want to fight it
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Ouch. My thought would be that if you have a local university or college that has a law school attached to it you may want to see if you qualify for legal assistance and if not look for a legal aid group. They will help you Pro Bono or free in plain language.
From my younger days in Ontario I would say the helmet charge is probably a fine but the no drivers license could be some serious trouble and you need proper legal advice and representation.
Best of luck and I hope you beat it. As everyone says fly below the radar and don't be conspicuous and this certainly proves it. Soon as you have an eye catching bike they pull you over.
From my younger days in Ontario I would say the helmet charge is probably a fine but the no drivers license could be some serious trouble and you need proper legal advice and representation.
Best of luck and I hope you beat it. As everyone says fly below the radar and don't be conspicuous and this certainly proves it. Soon as you have an eye catching bike they pull you over.
Well, I just got back from Service Ontario with the bike, they said they wern't 100% sure, but they didnt think you need one, as it does not follow under the MTO regulations. A power assisted bicycle is declared by a manufacturer as such, however these are classified as bicycles, and you don't register bicycles. You could argue that it is a bicycle and not a motorcycle?
TakeiT,
Just a word of advise that cost me a lot of money and effort to learn. Get it in writing and signed. If they won't do that chances are they don't know what they are talking about. Remember they ARE NOT paying the fine or doing the time so what do they care if they are right.
A Judge told me once that being ignorant of the law is not an excuse since the answer is available for the asking and it was up to me to have proof that what I was told was told to me by someone in authority who knew the correct answer.
I was told something was legal when in fact it wasn't. Telling the Judge that someone in the motor vehicle branch said it was, didn't cut it. He wanted to know, Who, When and Where. Do you have proof? No. Too bad your guilty and pay a huge fine on the way out and I'll give you a month to pay it if you need it.
Next case.
Once again this is a Federal law right out of Ottawa, not Queens Park. If the police don't act on it that is good for you but if you hit a determined police officer who knows the laws and presents the Judge and the Crown Prosecutor with the facts it will not go well for you.
Remember I don't have a dog in this hunt and I'm not paying your fine and winding up with any of your problems. This is a personal crusade to try and help some one from getting into a world of hurt for no reason based on my personal experience..
Steve.
Just a word of advise that cost me a lot of money and effort to learn. Get it in writing and signed. If they won't do that chances are they don't know what they are talking about. Remember they ARE NOT paying the fine or doing the time so what do they care if they are right.
A Judge told me once that being ignorant of the law is not an excuse since the answer is available for the asking and it was up to me to have proof that what I was told was told to me by someone in authority who knew the correct answer.
I was told something was legal when in fact it wasn't. Telling the Judge that someone in the motor vehicle branch said it was, didn't cut it. He wanted to know, Who, When and Where. Do you have proof? No. Too bad your guilty and pay a huge fine on the way out and I'll give you a month to pay it if you need it.
Next case.
Once again this is a Federal law right out of Ottawa, not Queens Park. If the police don't act on it that is good for you but if you hit a determined police officer who knows the laws and presents the Judge and the Crown Prosecutor with the facts it will not go well for you.
Remember I don't have a dog in this hunt and I'm not paying your fine and winding up with any of your problems. This is a personal crusade to try and help some one from getting into a world of hurt for no reason based on my personal experience..
Steve.
sboricic123
Member
I was out on my bike this morning and a Peterborough OPP officer, not in uniform, was standing at an off ramp checking drivers. Probably for cell phone use, texting and seat belts. Anyways, i was walking with the bike off at the time and he asked me if I built it. I told him I bought the kit. Then he tells me I need a licence, headlight, signal lights, licence palte, insurance, etc. He said it's a $110 fine if caught. He was polite about it. He said there a lot of paper work involved too. So I pedalled until I was out of there sight then fired it up again and continued riding along the shoulder of the road like I usually do.
Alright, after making a few calls, i've found out what to do. Because it has a motor, it's not a bicycle, because the motor is gas, its not an ebike, and because its not registered, its not a moped. However, there is a way to be legal still. You need to make sure your bike meets the moped guidelines, as follows:
Now, i'm pretty much good, all except for the clutch thing. You could argue that because it locks, it is not a clutch, instead it is to start the motor only. I haven't tried this yet but I will soon. If it doesn't work, the alternative is a 4 stroke or a centrifugal clutch system. There is no gearbox allowed, so shift kits are probably out of the question. Ensure all the guards are in place, everything is tight and to standards. Also, make sure you have properly wired headlights, turn signals, braking systems, mirrors and a horn. The brakes have to be independent from eachother, so either a foot pedal for one, or two levers. The brakes should also be wired to a brake light. Once you are confident, take it to a mechanic. If everything is in check, they will safety it. From there, you can go to service ontario and get the papers for a KIT vehicle. It will ask your information, as well as who made the kit etc. You will need a legal declaration that you are the lawful owner of the vehicle, and a declaration that the vehicle complies to the Moped category. Once all is done, you will be given a vin that starts with KIT, and you will be registered to the MTO as a moped. From there, you will need insurance and a license.
I'm thinking I'll probably install a 4 stroke kit before getting it safetied. I'll get the papers to register it on Monday and let you guys know how it turned out.
Make sure you say it is built from a kit, and not homemade. If you have it registered as home made, you are not exempt from the driveclean program. Kit vehicles do not have to have it.
EDITI overlooked one thing about the kit vehicle registration program. According to the MTO,
Therefore, you do NOT need your toy inspected. Apologies for the confusion
Now, i'm pretty much good, all except for the clutch thing. You could argue that because it locks, it is not a clutch, instead it is to start the motor only. I haven't tried this yet but I will soon. If it doesn't work, the alternative is a 4 stroke or a centrifugal clutch system. There is no gearbox allowed, so shift kits are probably out of the question. Ensure all the guards are in place, everything is tight and to standards. Also, make sure you have properly wired headlights, turn signals, braking systems, mirrors and a horn. The brakes have to be independent from eachother, so either a foot pedal for one, or two levers. The brakes should also be wired to a brake light. Once you are confident, take it to a mechanic. If everything is in check, they will safety it. From there, you can go to service ontario and get the papers for a KIT vehicle. It will ask your information, as well as who made the kit etc. You will need a legal declaration that you are the lawful owner of the vehicle, and a declaration that the vehicle complies to the Moped category. Once all is done, you will be given a vin that starts with KIT, and you will be registered to the MTO as a moped. From there, you will need insurance and a license.
I'm thinking I'll probably install a 4 stroke kit before getting it safetied. I'll get the papers to register it on Monday and let you guys know how it turned out.
Make sure you say it is built from a kit, and not homemade. If you have it registered as home made, you are not exempt from the driveclean program. Kit vehicles do not have to have it.
EDITI overlooked one thing about the kit vehicle registration program. According to the MTO,
(http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/handbook/motorcycles/section7-4-0.shtml)
Therefore, you do NOT need your toy inspected. Apologies for the confusion
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silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
I hope this works out for you so that you can be legal. Let us know how it goes.
SB
SB
sboricic123
Member
That's a lot of stuff to go through but legalizes it and yourself. I'm curious of your final result too if you can update us Ontarions.
I've heard a lot of people saying it wasn't possible, and that kit/homemade vin numbers were removed. I have not yet tried to register a bike, but since the law says maximum 50cc, no hand or foot operated clutch, I sent the MTO an email asking about it for a skyhawk frame and 48cc 4 stroke engine, with the following message:
In reply, I received the following
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ceUspvcrZ0sWftGd3TVwQ4VR69zz6sQfiwQnSV2HUcU/edit?usp=sharing
(Sorry, the text it too large to fit in a post)
Take the information as you wish.
In reply, I received the following
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ceUspvcrZ0sWftGd3TVwQ4VR69zz6sQfiwQnSV2HUcU/edit?usp=sharing
(Sorry, the text it too large to fit in a post)
Take the information as you wish.
