Sidecars?

[HackD]

How much sidecar wheel lead do you have, relative to the rear wheel axle center-line?

8-12" lead is somewhat normal, IIRC, with most motorcycle setups.

It minimizes power under load, and cornering effect of sidecar wheel drag, in terms of any pulling effect.

I see a lot of motor bicycle rigs setup with incorrect geometry. A right-angled triangle setup with the wheels at or near the base angles of the triangle, is not efficient geometry for a rig.

An incorrectly setup sidecar rig, under-powered or not, has generally nasty handling, in my opinion. Quickest way to wear out linkages, scrub tires down to cord, and generally having a rig fighting itself in handling, and bleeding energy away from propelling itself down the road.. at higher speeds (these aren't really capable of that), potentially deadly handling characteristics.

Sorry if i'm stating the bleeding obvious..

 

[Semaj]

I appreciate the Input

 

[Ludwig II]

In our cheapo racing, we settled at a lead of 25% of the wheelbase, and about 1" of toe in. Trail was around 1", rake (from shattered memory) about 22 degrees.

For road use, a handy trick is to lean the bike away from the chair by about 1 or 2 degrees from the vertical, so it resists falling off the crown of the road, and also develops a slight pull in the steering which counters the sidecar's drag.

 

[HackD]

In our cheapo racing, we settled at a lead of 25% of the wheelbase, and about 1" of toe in. Trail was around 1", rake (from shattered memory) about 22 degrees.

For road use, a handy trick is to lean the bike away from the chair by about 1 or 2 degrees from the vertical, so it resists falling off the crown of the road, and also develops a slight pull in the steering which counters the sidecar's drag.

Sounds about right!

 

[Ludwig II]

I have scars from things that weren't right.

 

[fasteddy]

Ludwig,

Scars are proof of a life well lived.

Steve

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

Unfortunately no photos survive of any of the sidecar outfits I built up. Living on a coastal island as I did at the time my outfits had to be able to handle a variety of road surfaces or lack of a road surface.
My Jawa outfit was the first sidecar outfit I'd ever owned and its homemade chassis was a complete pig of a thing. I'd been at home recovering after being shunted off my Suzuki GT380 by a learner driver and my Mum was severely in my ear about riding motorcycles ever again. With my lovely old Suzuki busted I needed reliable transport when I returned to the island and a car was no good to me. So I brightly said to Mum, 'I'll get myself a sidecar outfit, that will be nice and safe because it can't fall over.'

The Jawa turned up advertised in the local paper for $NZ200 so I bought it. After a quick phonecall the owner dropped it off to me and money changed hands and I became the owner of a sidecar outfit. At the time old Jawas were looked on with contempt in New Zealand and you couldn't give them away. I'd owned one before though so I knew their hidden potential. Somehow I managed to ride the ill handling thing across to the ferry terminal so I could get back to the island. Fortunately the roads were deserted as the departure time was early in the morning before the average commuter was even out of bed.
(My Jawa didn't look this good I'm afraid despite being in original condition. Eventually the engine was replaced by the all alloy scrambles version and boy could that goooooooo.)


Over the first couple of months of ownership I spent a lot of time teaching myself how to setup a sidecar outfit properly. Along the way I had a few spills as off-camber winding gravel roads are not an especially forgiving playground for a new chum at sidecar outfit piloting. No serious injuries though and after my most spectacular spill I can remember lying on my back on a grassy bank beside the road and laughing myself silly.

As to the final setup I ended up using the same kind of measurements HackD and Ludwig have already mentioned and when I built up my Honda 350 twin outfit from scratch I used the proven numbers from setting up the Jawa. On rough roads though I found the best sidecar suspension was a frank copy of that used on the early Indian motorcycles. Leaf springs rule in my book

 

[fasteddy]

Found this on the Adventure Rider site. All about sidecars.

Steve.

http://advrider.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=56

 

[HackD]

I have scars from things that weren't right.

Fortunately, no scars in the past - although i have turned a rig turtle, due to my own handling stupidity.

I have had three rigs so far - the first in the early '90s necessitated by a broken leg sustained in the summer (due to other activities), and a need to sling crutches into a sidecar in order to still enjoy that summer. It was a Velorex 560 mated to a Suzuki 650 twin. The same rig that i turned turtle.

The second was a Yamaha 750 four, mated to a Velorex 562.

The third i still own, a heavyweight sport-rig full conversion based upon a Suzuki 1200, mated to a two-seater Hannigan sidecar. Been parked up a few years now, due to health issues.. need to install electric reverse before i can use it again.

The first time around, a sidecar install is definitely equal parts of black arts and high science, with a whole lot of head-scratching thrown in. It gets progressively easier from there, once the basic principles are understood.

Sidecar rigs - you either love them, or you hate them. It usually depends on whether you got the setup reasonably right the first time, and it didn't try to kill you at first chance .. :/

 

[silverbear]

Annie,
Your Jawa photo brought back some memories of the only real motorcycle I ever had. While away at college I bought one from a buddy very much like the one in your photo, although in much poorer condition and in a kind of teal color if I remember right. I believe it was 250cc and I had a lot of fun on it riding it off road. I was planning to get it licensed but went for a ride one day on what I later learned was a newly laid sod athletic field. It had rained the day before and the rear wheel was sending up rooster tails of muddy water behind me. Great fun until I noticed the ruts I was leaving behind me. Also noticed some irate figures running toward me with what I interpreted to be ill intent. I took off and made it to my ground floor apartment in town by way of back alleys and stashed the bike inside the apartment where it stayed hidden while I waited for things to cool down at the college's athletics department. I didn't dare ride the bike anywhere. It was so ugly and beat up that it would have been remembered if seen again by the wrong people. Eventually my landlord sniffed out gasoline odors emanating from the apartment and made me put it outside. I don't recall now who I gave it to, but it was gone from my life. Too bad really, because I paid less than a hundred dollars for it and it ran great. Wish I still had it.
SB

 

[Semaj]

Ok, Next question, Do you recommend breaks for the sidecar wheel? Would it change your derision if there were or weren't a motor in the wheel?

 

[fasteddy]

I have brakes on the Monark sidecar simply because I can. I just figured there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.
A disc brake was simple to mount and a drum brake shouldn't be difficult either.

Steve.

 

[Semaj]

Mayhaps the initial wheel will be a doubble break, but eventually it will have a clone of the hub motor Ive got on the back wheel of the bike

 

[HackD]

Ok, Next question, Do you recommend breaks for the sidecar wheel? Would it change your derision if there were or weren't a motor in the wheel?

My viewpoint, of course, only.

Additional complexity and weight, for minimal gain.

Primary braking will always be front and rear of the bike. Sidecar wheel braking IS effective, if you have a need to steer the front of the bike around the sidecar wheel pivot at an accelerated rate.. In normal use, it generally offers no additional performance, when the motorcycle has adequate braking capabilities already.

In the full sized sidecar world, there are very few 2wd outfits - for a reason. Hard to effectively implement, tend to be overly heavy and overall not that fast, with some handling issues related to 2wd power delivery - a LSD of some form, is definitely desirable when shafting power to the sidecar wheel. Without it, the rig will tend to want to continue steering straight, with equal application of power to both rear and sidecar wheel.

2 electric motors? No idea there about the electronics associated with varying RPM to the rear and sidecar wheel, as circumstance dictates .. again more weight and complexity, though i suppose the sidecar frame would make a wonderful battery tray..

I'd personally stick to the KISS principle, and just go for a single, higher wattage rear-driven wheel..

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

Annie,
Your Jawa photo brought back some memories of the only real motorcycle I ever had. While away at college I bought one from a buddy very much like the one in your photo, although in much poorer condition and in a kind of teal color if I remember right. I believe it was 250cc and I had a lot of fun on it riding it off road. I was planning to get it licensed but went for a ride one day on what I later learned was a newly laid sod athletic field. It had rained the day before and the rear wheel was sending up rooster tails of muddy water behind me. Great fun until I noticed the ruts I was leaving behind me. Also noticed some irate figures running toward me with what I interpreted to be ill intent. I took off and made it to my ground floor apartment in town by way of back alleys and stashed the bike inside the apartment where it stayed hidden while I waited for things to cool down at the college's athletics department. I didn't dare ride the bike anywhere. It was so ugly and beat up that it would have been remembered if seen again by the wrong people. Eventually my landlord sniffed out gasoline odors emanating from the apartment and made me put it outside. I don't recall now who I gave it to, but it was gone from my life. Too bad really, because I paid less than a hundred dollars for it and it ran great. Wish I still had it.
SB

I remember the Teal coloured ones Silverbear. I think they were made a year or two after my one, but in most other respects they were the same.

Ok, Next question, Do you recommend breaks for the sidecar wheel? Would it change your derision if there were or weren't a motor in the wheel?

On my Honda outfit I experimented with sidecar wheel brakes and came to the conclusion that they weren't worth the trouble. Extra complication and something else to maintain with no real extra benefit.
The most improvement I got with the braking was when I replaced the Honda rear wheel with the one from my poor old dead Suzuki GT380. A much bigger drum brake and a stronger cush drive on the sprocket made for a complete bolt up conversion that didn't cost me a thing.

 

[Intrepid Wheelwoman]

Apparently this is a 1920 Model 'H' Matchless.

 

[Ludwig II]

Sidecar brakes can work with a passenger being acrobatic and putting weight over the wheel, otherwise it will tend to lock the wheel up, and that means you lose sideways grip as well as forward.

Jawa points are dreadful things. The backplates are a thin tin that warps when you tighten up the screws, and then the timing's out again. I found the answer was to just slacken them off enough to drift the r/h plate round, tighten back up, and then do the same with the l/h plate (it's mounted on top of the r/h, for the uninitiated).

Once done, the engine's idle could be brought down so low that you could ride with the clutch fully home, and little old ladies would overtake you.

I never fully owned a sidecar, although I had a half share in two. Me and Bill Turley raced a C90 with a skeletal sidecar, built mx fashion. There is a degree of truth in the belief that a rigid framed motorcycle is better than a sprung one for sidecar handling, as there are no compromises and unwanted hinges. We put solid struts on the back and hung the bottom rear mount of the platform from the ex shock mount, with a stay from the top mount to a point 6 inches along the back edge of the platform. The bottom front mount used the convenient footrest and we ran a flyer from the outer front corner up to the headstock. It steered and handled brilliantly.

The forks evolved, still leading link, for the following year, the links were replaced by longer ones that reduced the trail, and the springs now lived on the front of the forks, not inside. The whole outfit was a kneeler, as the tank was mounted in front of the bars, and the tank mount area was cut away and skinned to become a seat.

It was competitive for a year, and was then overtaken by progress.

 

[silverbear]

http://simplysidecars.co.uk/index.html

The above link is to a sidecar outfit in England and is interesting as a resource for attachment hardware, tips on setting one up and on handling one on the road. They also have several models for sale, the smallest of which (Dart & Swift) are of a size close to what would be appropriate for our purposes. Overall dimensions, legroom, hip room, ground clearance and weight could serve as guides in our own constructions. I noticed with both of these models that the front end is reminiscent of a canoe, so of course I like them.
SB

 

[Ludwig II]

I was given a lift in a Velorex chair once, the Tour type. It was fun, but I didn't have a paddle, so had to pretend to paddle race cars away from the lights.

 

[46u]

I really enjoy sidecars. My only transportation is a 2002 Harley with a Harley sidecar. I do not like cages and do not own one. Been like that for most of my 45 plus years of none stop riding motorcycles.

Doctors a few years ago said I had to give up riding do to my legs, back and neck. So I went home and put the sidecar on no problem. LOL Once I get a motorized bicycle I will have to see about adding a sidecar.