Ontario Rally?!?!?

[ADDICTED BICYCLES]

Ok, I've put in a bit of work here, it's still really early, so things can change. Just keeping you all posted on the progress of the rally. I will start registration immediately, if you'd like a form please private message Whelan Wheels, or myself, and we will email you a document file compatible with your computer, so you can edit on word, pages, or another word processing program. If all else fails, print the form, and you can mail it to me using standard mail. (I'll provide mailing address upon request)
It's coming along nicely, I so can't wait!

 

[fasteddy]

ABC, the snow has melted in Sudbury in May?

In response to Rockensteins worry about bike riders being shut down. If we don't as a whole present our selves to the public, no one will understand just what we do. Lack of knowledge breeds fear.
Just like the old Frankenstein movies where the peasants show up at the gate with torches.


Let the cops know that there will be motor bikes in the area. Show them that we are not a bunch of teen age boys with lawn mower motors zip tied to a bike frame ready to run over old ladys on thier way to church.
Let them know that there are builders out there who are using factory made parts to produce an acceptable mode of transportation.

If you don't we all will be ducking and dodging the law.

Like there are informed voters, for us there should be informed politicos who don't think of us as a mad horde h*ll bent on causing the people that vote them in problems. We need to tell them that we are informed voters of all ages who put bikes together with motors on them and with two motor bike clubs with thousands of voters in both countries as well as around the world we are not a latest fad.

The fact our carbon foot print is so small that it should be a good thing to encourage.

That is the only way we will be able to ride in . That is why I said get every one in the area involved.

Don't blind side the police. Let them all know we are comming. They write the tickets.

Let the chamber of commerce know. They are there to encourage tourists. They talk to the police.

Let the mayor/town council know. They like to be part of things that they can promote. We are green. Low carbon foot print. They just happen to be fun to ride. We build our own to suit our personal tastes. They control the police.

Anyone see a pattern here.

Tell them you hope to have people from across Canada and the US and you want to do it every year with increased growth.

At 66 I've seen some history and I was there in Toronto when the cops ticketed every kid they saw on a Honda or Yamaha who did the slightest thing wrong because they were BIKERS and therefore a menace to decent society. When they when after the kids of people with influence it stopped fast. This is the early 60s.

If you plan to hand out flyers at city hall take your bikes with you. The greatest problem we face is a politico who has been uninformed.

Steve.

 

[ADDICTED BICYCLES]

Now we're talking!

 

[Rockenstein]

Show them that we are not a bunch of teen age boys with lawn mower motors zip tied to a bike frame

From the perspective of a law maker therein lies the problem...how to differentiate the good from the bad builds, how to regulate specifications, what about builder or parts supplier credentials and so on. See this, like I said in other posts, is the exact problem builders of kit cars or custom motorcycles face and as a result things of that nature have pretty much been outlawed by the federal government and all of the provinces follow federal regulations when it comes to motor vehicles.

Here's some links to read and info to ponder...

"Kit Cars" in Canada - Road & Motor Vehicle Safety Publications - Road and Motor Vehicle Safety - Road Transportation - Transport Canada

Frequently asked questions for Kit Cars - Road & Motor Vehicle Safety Publications - Road and Motor Vehicle Safety - Road Transportation - Transport Canada

Now if you start customizing something that was a legit and federally recognized motor vehicle in the first place it's a different game altogether and you can in most cases get it on the road legally because in a legal sense it is what it always was. Bicycles are not motor vehicles though and they were never manufactured or sold as motor vehicles...do you follow my logic on this? Transforming a bicycle into a legitimate, certified and recognized motor vehicle built by Joe Blow public is not a simple task by any stretch and the easiest, simplest and SAFE thing for the gov to do is just out and out say in the interest of public safety you cannot do that and if you do you may or will face penalties. We are in a unique situation at the moment where there is not really enough of us to be worth worrying about BUT as our hobby gains popularity I can assure you something will likely happen and my guess is that something will be a federal ban on the importation and sale of the engine kits. I said as well in many other posts that "kit" ebike builders face the same issues as us in that an ebike is not a "legal" ebike unless it bears a manufacturers label stating in both official languages that it complies with the federal power assisted bicycle specifications and regulations.

 

[marts1]

According to the cops in Oshawa these mb's are not a problem as long as there are peddles and that they are neccesary. I would very much like to see that stay the way it is. It has been on the back of my mind anything happening which might be newsworthy concerning mb's could be a negative thing. Keeping things as quiet as possible would be ok by me. Why try to make changes in Ontario when all is fine?

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein, I'm working with you here. We are not building kit cars though.
I've been messing with cars for 52 years. I'm not new to the game. What I'm talking about is the gathering in Sudbury and not trying to just show up in town with motor bikes and act like it was not planned.

The police and the people who make up the rules should be consulted and involved in the planning. Fail to do that and you have problems. I speak from first hand knowledge of this. You have heard of WTF. That is what they will be saying.

The police driving down the road suddenly see 20/30 motor bikes comming down the road at them and I have no desire to find that a bike I will have $2,000 in is now going to be impounded.
Tell them we are going to be there. If there is a problem, better they say so than we are paying $500 fines.

As for getting our home made bikes given the OK here is a story about the power of the people.

We live in a nice residential area. Just a small mall and any major shopping is 25 min drive away in White Rock.
They changed the bus route and that freed up some buses so now they will run past our street every 15 min. Since both my neices are in university and have a 2 1/2 bus ride each day, each way, any time saved is nice. Thats 5 hrs on a bus. Vancouver is 35 miles north of us.
OH, but wait. There is a broad who starts a one woman campaign to keep the buses in our area to 1/2 hr because SHE doesn't want buses every 15 min. Now if your on the wrong bus you have to get off and wait in White Rock for the next bus to take you home.
Do you think in an area of homes that hover around a million dollars, she gets on a bus to go anywhere? Bet her maid does.

One person put out how many people? We'll find out soon because the backlash has started.

If the meet in Sudbury has the proper spin on it everyone in Canada will benefit. If the press see it as a green way to travel, the country will hear it that way. It is up to us to point that out. The powers in Ottawa listen to which way the wind is going. My family has been in politics for generations. My brother and I want nothing to do with it.

Get the local Provincal MLA standing beside or on a motor bike for a photo op as we tell them about how they work and the milage and the new buzz word, how "green" they are but we need help in being able to build them and really need thier help in getting laws passed so we can do it.

Yes, you are absolutely right in that will bring down laws to make sure that there are guide lines to follow. Insurance and plates will follow too. The money hounds will not be far behind. The Insurance Company lobbyists will be in Ottawa to make sure every thing goes thier way along with a suitcase full of cash to make things happen.

The only thing is we make sure that the politicos understand that the votes go to who ever looks after us. Look at how many people join this site every day. A lot of them are Canadian. We are not going away.

You forget, like most of the politicians, that a bolt of lightning DID NOT come down from the sky and place these yaks in power. People did and if we as motor bike owners talk loudly and often about what we want they will listen. Form chapters, organize and supply information to the people in power so they know the strength of our group and they will listen. Thier jobs depend on it.

Steve

 

[Rockenstein]

When you think about it fasteddy we really are the same as kit car or scratch motorcycle builders, our modified bicycles have been put together from various parts purchased or scrounged up from here and there right. The HT engines we use are marketed as an "engine kit", most electric hub motors are marketed as a "conversion kit" so through the eyes of a politician an engine kit, motor kit, chassis kit, body kit...it's all the same. Next comes the builder credentials issue again, in the eyes of a politician how is it possible that an 18 year old high school kid or a 50 year old Tim Hortons employee has the knowledge, training and equipment required to assemble a safe motor vehicle? Do you see what I'm getting at? I know the power of many can institute change but the bugger for us is the other guys with a similar hobby, greater numbers and more industry support have been trying for decades to go legal with little or no success. The flip side is they have laws specifically against what they do while we, at this point in time, do not.


Here's something interesting you all could try and it might give you an indication of what to expect before you approach politicians or a local law enforcement agency.


Go to Blue Line Forums and ask the law enforcement officers on there what they think about a group of people on motorized bicycles showing up in Sudbury for a rally or traveling down an Ontario highway together.

 

[fasteddy]

Rockenstein, I built Cobra kit car bodies for one of the biggest kit car companies in the US, Everrett-Morrison. They are not bicycles unless of course you plan to shoe horn a 427 side oiler into it and if you are please- o- please call me over because I would love to see genius in person. I would also like to take out some life insurance for you. LOL

As I said there will be laws about what you can do and how but like building a street rod you will need to take it and have it inspected. Then you get the paper work. They will cover things from brakes to tires.

We have the speed limit, engine size thing going. Don't know if you lived through the muscle car era but if you didn't you missed some fun. My brothers 1969 396/375 hp Chevelle with a 4 speed when you hit 4th at a 100mph spun the tires.
Took a ride in a Cobra kit car that had a 427 side oiler{thats why I mentioned it}and that was as close I've been to flying while I was still on the ground.
That is why they have laws about kit cars. We had to be doing close to 150 in the Cobra.
The bikes do 30 if we are allowed too.

You are talking about people building motored bikes like they were a street rod. I think you will find most people building a bike have the knowledge/ skill and the ones that don't get weeded out in the inspection process. That is why they have it.

We don't have rules about what we can do??? Please tell me what freakin utopian planet you live on and is there room for one more person?

The kit car guys are bringing a whole car into the country that the kit car makers may or may not have had engineers design. From what I the only design work that was done was for the kit car companies benefit.
That is why they allow bodies that can be put on an existing frame into the country. The factory spent millions designing the mechanicals.

The original Cobra was designed and built by Ford. The kit car companies ripped the car off and got by the Gov. that way. Wasn't worth Ford fighting them for what was a race car.

Sorry Rockenstein, looked at the forum you mentioned but didn't see any Sudbury police/OPP/RCMP listed but I can tell you from being married to a police woman for years that there is goin to be one or two cops that have an attitude problem and if you cross thier path they have the badge and the right and everyone else at the station may hate them on sight but they will stick together right or wrong.
Clearing the air before the ride cuts that sh8t off at the sock tops.

Steve.

 

[silverbear]

Not being Canadian, I have no stake in this debate, but I can see merit in both sides of the issue. It is of interest to me because I think we share the same problem here in the states. I don't see interest waning in these motorized bicycles; it is on the increase, so whether we want to stay under the radar or not a time will come when we can't. My hope is that when that day comes that the powers that be feel the need to do something or other about all those crazy motorbicycles out there, that there will be sensible regulation rather than outright banning of their use on public roads. We'll get either regulation or we'll be outlaws. Outlaw has a nice romantic ring to it, but I have no desire to be hassled by the police ( and Aaniimoosh The Wonder Dog does not want to be arrested by a police dog, either). So when the time comes I will welcome sensible regulation. I think having motorbicycles abide by motor vehicle laws (at least some of them) makes sense. We don't need drunken motorbike riders on the road any more than drunk drivers in cars or trucks. Wreckless driving is wreckless driving and should be discouraged by fine if need be. I don't know how the age thing would be addressed. I would hope that younger riders would be able to ride legally. Maybe someday there will be a little safety training and a test. Helmets mandatory on public roadways is OK with me, just like seat belt laws. Requiring lights for night riding on public roadways makes perfectly good sense. I also wouldn't mind an inspection process if it was sensible and aimed at safety. There are some bikes which are so poorly put together or maintained that if it is obvious they are a liability, then a citation requiring something fixed or improved is again in the interest of the rider and the public. I don't have a problem with a cop stopping me in my truck for a tail light out or non functioning brake lights and requiring they be fixed. If that's what it takes to keep riding my motorbicycle then OK, better than putting the bike away forever or sneaking around all the while risking having my bike impounded. It will come eventually, some kind of action by our governmental bodies, public busy bodies if you will, they will speak and we will have to listen. If there is a way to influence attitudes ahead of time, that's good. Every one of us who keeps to the side of the road, drives within the limits of the road, comes to at least a rolling stop at intersections, uses hand signals when appropriate, wears a helmet and shows consideration for others sharing the road, even when some of them do not return the favor... each of us is having a positive influence and is helping to insure our longevity in this business of motorbicycling. Beyond that, I don't know. I do know that all the talk of how fast can I go is less helpful than how green I go, how inexpensively I go, how I ride with so much pure pleasure. I go out of my way to be friendly even with those who don't notice, don't care or are not from this planet. I think every little bit each of us does on the positive side helps. Every goofball who pisses off drivers with reckless abandon of the rules of the road hurts all of us. If we want to be legal, and recognized as responsible adults who should have a right to build and ride these motorbicycles then we have to behave that way. I understand the desire to remain in the shadows, but the light is getting brighter all the time with fewer shadow to hide in. We really do need to have a srtategy for the future which will come, as it always does.
SB
____

 

[ADDICTED BICYCLES]

Here here Silverbear!! I totally agree with you. I do see the merit in both sides of this debate. However, how long are we going to get away with slippin through the cracks? Why stay hidden, waiting for them to notice? Then they make the rules, they have control, and we lose. If we present ourselves properly, and show how it is, show how we understand we need rules like any other vehicle, show them in numbers that we are not just hobbiests, tearing up the streets, we are a part of a destructive human race, attempting to make a small change. These bikes are amazing, they're so efficient, fun, and they get you to where you need to go. If we can show that these bikes can bring people from all over the planet together, uniting and sharing knowledge, one by one lowering carbon emissions, we can take their control, we can have a say. I agree, we'll eventually have to be licenced, plated, insured, the works. I wouldn't mind one bit. It will still be just as fun, and at least I wouldn't have that panicky feeling every time I see a cop! I'd be more confident in my bike, knowing i've passed a safety inspection. Besides, if your bike was insured, you could replace it if stolen, or crashed, or whatever! It would turn out to be a good thing if we keep the ball in our court. I'm a pretty outspoken person, I speak my mind at all times to anyone. I don't believe in wallowing in the shadows, it only holds you back. Speak up, take what's yours, and life provides amazing wonders. Anyways, I've worked midnight shift all night, I'm babbling. lol. I think communication with sudbury local is proper. It makes sense. I don't want anything to happen to any of the attending riders, so IF we can get law and govern online, this rally will happen. If not, well, what's the sense of having any rallies?

 

[skyl4rk]

Show them that we are not a bunch of boys with lawn mower motors zip tied to a bike frame ready to run over old ladys on thier way to church.

Hey, speak for yourself! Whats wrong with running over old lady's?

 

[skyl4rk]

If you focus on the green aspect of motored bikes, you might get some support. If there are races and general counterculture behavior, probably less so.

If you drive on the main roads and "obstruct" traffic, you will probably get busted. If you stick to the back roads and ride in the sticks, probably not.

What is the culture like in Sudbury, are a lot of people into building machines on their own, frontier style? Are there a lot of off road enthusiasts? (quads, dirtbikes, snowmobiles). Are the police generally tolerant toward those people, even in town?

My impression of ON is that the police are pretty much "by the rulebook" in town, and in areas where there are very few people, and then its more common sense and freedom. Unlike Michigan, where usually the police are busy with murders, shootings and bank robberies and only mess with motored bikers on a slow day.

I was up in Sudbury this summer, just passing through, but thought it was a beautiful area and would recommend a visit to anyone.

You may want to consider holding the rally near a private campground with some nice cruising roads and two tracks. Although it is a lot of fun to ride around the city and just check out the neighborhoods.

 

[Rockenstein]

You know before I thought about modding a bicycle with an ICE I researched electric conversions for over a year and my argument to you guys regarding your goal of recognition is simple. If the people that were building DIY electric bicycles long before any of us even heard of a Zoom engine kit can't get their home built rides on the road legally how is it you figure your going to get yours accepted? The electric bicycle community has a much larger following, has greater industry support, has many more friends in high places and when you mention green in Ontario E is where it's at right now. You will not convince any politician, or even me, that a 50 dollar Chinese 2 stroke is even close to being as green as a 500-1000 watt electric motor. Anyway most relevant and most recent is that when bill 126 "Ontario Road Safety Act" was being debated here in Ontario the electric bicycle community and industry representatives were present and hooray electric bicycles are now part of the legal transportation mix in Ontario provided they are factory built and comply with the federal MVSA specifications! With bill 126 the DIY electric bicycle enthusiasts were legislated back to the underground but fortunately for them and us nobody at the moment is really saying a whole lot about what we are doing. Yes every now and then they, like us, have a member that has his bike stolen by local law enforcement or has to go to court and offer a defence for some bogus tickets but ya know the situation with home built vehicles of any kind is what it is.

 

[fasteddy]

Skyl4rk, the little old Ladies are worth double points if they are on the way to church.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

All we have to do is show the powers that be, that we are MOMS ANGELS not the HELLS ANGELS.

There is nothing that a politician fears more than an organized mob that can get him put out of office. The one thing that they count on is the mob never can organize.

Steve.

 

[marts1]

I don't get it. Right now at this time it is not illegal to ride these bikes on city streets in Oshawa and I'd guess most everywhere else, or at least you are not bothered. Why would you want these bikes controlled by government standards instead of your own. Don't we follow enuff of other peoples rules? I guess some don't know how much more it would cost. It would not be worth the bother. The day these bikes are regulated is the day I might as well go back to riding motorcycles.

 

[Rockenstein]

There is nothing that a politician fears more than an organized mob that can get him put out of office. The one thing that they count on is the mob never can organize.

Your not saying the DIY electric bicycle community that lobbied for inclusion in the recently passed bill 126 - Ontario Road Safety Act was not well organized are you? Their numbers are at least 6 times ours and that's not to mention the industry support and political friends they had and still have. Anyway after all the arguments about how green they are, how safe the bicycles they build are etc etc were put forth to the public and the politicians they were shot down and regulated back to the shadows.

I don't know what much else I can say, I've used every relevant example I can think of to show you all what we are up against and what could happen if we make too much noise. Maybe best I just leave it alone and stand down on the topic.


Lets hope all goes well...


Oh and cheers to a happy thanksgiving weekend, I'm certainly looking forward to the dinner

 

[Humsuckler]

count me in! im stoked to meet you guys!

i will probley take a bus down tho since its quite an epic ride at 50kmh..... lol

 

[fasteddy]

Humsuckler, where in Ont. are you?

Steve

 

[ADDICTED BICYCLES]

so, here's my thoughts. Sure we may be getting away with it for now, but are we really? Just cause you're one rider, and a cop passes with no comment, doesn't mean we're in the clear. We will never be in the clear. We will never have the complete freedom with our bikes that we desire. As far as I can tell, there are millions of people around the world driving these things around for fun, or necessity. Why are we sitting here arguing over whether or not we're going to change the law. We're not going to change anything with one rally. Rallies have been happening all around the world for years now. Have we noticed a change? There will be a change, as a un-ruled rider, we should accept the inevitable. Man up and ride guys, the fact is, you bought that engine kit, it was allowed into your country, you paid the tax on it. If the government wanted to stop it, they'd stop the companies who are selling them, not the individual rider. If they're going to change the laws, then let them, we're not going to stop them. You think they don't see us? They see us. They have a plan, they have people debating the engines, and the rules. It's just a matter of time. If we were all rockin nitrous, doing 80 mph on these things, crashing every week, with hospitals filling up with broken riders, they would probably take instant action. They aren't "noticing" right now, because for the most part, we are following road rules, not killing ourselves, or others, and they don't sound like most Harley Davidson Choppers. There's probably many more reasons why they have or haven't done anything about it. All I know is, there's no time like the present, so live it up. I'm not trying to be rude, or yell, or pick on anyone in particular, I'm just saying, what's all the arguing about really? We're not changing anything, we're not doing anything that isn't already being done, and even if we didn't hold this rally, someone else will. Lets just ride, have some fun, and enjoy it while it lasts. If you're worried you're gonna loose your bike, or get fined, there are specialized "m" licenses available for these bikes, as well as license plates, and insurance. Get certified, and take control. Simple. Sorry if I'm sounding rude, just thought I'd speak my mind.