Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Hi Pat, always good to hear from you and glad you updated us on what's going on with vendors copying your designs and I totally understand you being upset with this intellectual theft as it hits you & others in the wallet. The four forks I've bought from CNOL are all quite different from those you offer, but I am troubled by any vendor that's copying established products exactly and you've given me heads up in the past of another vender that's copied your designs and I no longer do business with them as a result. I appreciate you and your products and several of my bikes would certainly not suit me if I'd not utilized your designs in their completions.

Best always, Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

I echo Rick's thoughts about this. So many companies let some one do the heavy lifting and then wait until they can steal the load. I believe cnolmotorsport is based in California and has most everything they sell shipped from China. That is how they were able to get your adapter.

Steve.

 

[sportscarpat]

Hi Steve,
Thanks for weighing in. I actually emailed the guy on my adapters and he claimed ignorance, saying he just buys stuff from china and resells, with my product being part of that. Whatever, we know what he is up too. Sometimes, fairly often actually, I get orders from weird addresses or names and just refund those orders. There is a chance I am denying honest people from my parts in doing so. Shipping parts to countries know for intellectual theft always worries me. Would I ship a part to China? No. If I do they will ship thousands back.
Pat

 

[allen standley]

Sad to here it. read it. And there is the evidence. Good to know.

 

[indian22]

Sad to here it. read it. And there is the evidence. Good to know.

All a part of being a close community forum that communicates rather than pontificate and bicker. I hope we continue to work with our vendors and each other to promote our pastime. Vendors like Pat and Norm etc. are bike guys and were bike guys before they started businesses related to motor bicycles and have paid their dues for a decade or more on this forum and deserve our props...respect!

Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Hi Pat,
I just went to his web site and looking around lo and behold there is your board track racer drop loop complete with a poorly made stainless steel Indian style gas tank and cheesy looking drop handle bars. One of the photos had a V twin motor that looked suspiciously like your electric V twin. Out of curiosity I priced what he's offering on you web sites parts list.

Drop loop frame.
Indian style gas tank.
Board track handle bars.
Economy seat.
Sprocket adapter.
Shimano110 rear wheel.
77 car drum front wheel.

I added the cost of the forks that he uses and sells. Other than that It's all Pat's prices.

Total is $1735 using CNOL forks

His price is $1,600 with free shipping.

Sure narrows the choice for me. Pat's with made in America quality.

CNOL is not including the vastly superior quality parts the Sportsman Flyer is using. I simply matched part for part.

Steve.

 

[PeteMcP]

Feel like I should stick my head above the parapet here and risk having it blown off. First off, Pat at Sportsman Flyer has my full respect as a manufacturer of what are undoubtedly the finest bikes in our hobby, bar none. Stumbling across Pat's website a few years back was the catalyst that drew me to want to have a crack at building a motorized Board Track replica in the first place. If anyone would care to look back at the second paragraph of my very first posting on this forum, you'll notice I praised Sportsman Flyer's products but then went on to explain that being in the UK, there was no way I could justify the initial cost, associated import duties and taxes to ship parts for a Sportsman Flyer build over here. Searching online, I discovered CNOL Motorsport on eBay - from who.I purchased the repop frame, tank and springer forks for my debut build. Correspondence with CNOL revealed they are not the manufacturers of these products, merely sellers. My frame/tank/forks were shipped direct to the UK from China for a nominal 30 UK pounds - and the shipment was under-declared, saving me a fortune on duties and taxes. Same story when I later bought a pair of CNOL's sprung girder forks used on my build number three.
Reading this thread's latest topic kicked-off by Pat and expressing his valid concerns regarding 'reverse engineering' of some of his products in China can't help but make me feel bad, but let me say this; CNOL are not the only source of these parts in question. For example, let's look at the stainless gas tanks and board tracker handlebars listed by CNOL on their website right now. Be aware there are a few other China sellers on eBay selling those same items - at a substantially reduced price compared to CNOL's. I'm currently 'watching' on eBay the stainless tank listed for 71 UK pounds, with free worldwide shipping, by someone in China calling themselves Supermotosport. That compares to the same tank listed by CNOL at 147 UK pounds (the price I paid for mine). Similarly, those handlebars are also being sold much cheaper elsewhere. Evidence, to me at least, that CNOL are not the makers of these items.
More concerning though, the Board Tracker rolling chassis mentioned in Steve's post above that's just appeared amongst CNOL's current eBay listings is not yet sold with the faux V-twin motor shown in some of the ad's accompanying pictures. However, it would seem logical to assume it's a prototype and therefore only a matter of time before the motor option too - strikingly similar to Pat's - may be offered for sale. I guess it's down to us folks on this forum to at least provide this information and let people decide how best to spend their money and support creative design.

 

[indian22]

Thanks Pete for joining in the discussion with more data on CNOL especially interesting to me was the delivered price differentials of the same product from varied vendors.

I'd add, trying to be fair, that the forks and the straight bar aluminum Schwinn frame I've purchased from CNOL were all good quality and delivered quickly...no problems with that, on my part at all. That said my last purchase was well over a year ago so I went to the CNOL store on Ebay and checked out their offerings...the 3 piece hub adapter was what jumped out at me, though this design feature or the extra length of the sprocket posts weren't mentioned. It's un-mistakenly Pat's design. So I'm back to that and I understand his caution and anger, though the other parts handle bars, tank, loop frame are just rather poor representations of what he offers and I've three sets of his handle bars, one loop frame and one fuel tank along with hub adapter all Sportsman Flyer products, so I know what I'm talking about here.

I've also made two of my own reduction drive brackets based on Pat's design, but I'm not selling parts nor completed bikes & at his pricing I'd not do another one for myself either.

Rick C.

 

[sportscarpat]

I appreciate people weighing in on this issue. Bikes and parts have similar designs and mine are no exception. My sprocket adapter is just another sprocket adapter, sure, but the three piece design is my idea and the shape, three matching pieces for ease of manufacture is also my idea. I also use my own bolt pattern and heavier fasteners. Anyway, if someone wants to make adapters or any other parts then they are welcome. Copying my part exactly, and even selling it as a Sportsman Flyer product which CNOL was doing, just goes too far. Saying he is just reselling it does not remove him from the theft chain in my book. He is the thief and the problem.
I will always encourage a builder to use all ideas they see in their builds. Rich has made reduction units and I think thats pretty cool. People make tanks like mine all the time. Again, that's fine. Like Fasteddy said above "So many companies let some one do the heavy lifting and then wait until they can steal the load", and then go on to profit on this and even undercut the "heavy lifter" and go so far as to even use a trade marked name is beyond excuse. CNOL and others like him probably don't care one bit about our American history or integrity. Again, sorry guys, but this issue is close to home for me.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Lynnette Rietzke, CustomMotoredBicycles/MBRebel

Tried to get me to bootleg Pat's work. Pat, for good reason got kind of cagey when I first started ordering components for my Sportsman Flyer.

Lynn lives 30 minutes away, so when I was looking for improvement parts to my Huffy Davidson Lynne was a logical choice. Instead of making rather costly purchases on faith I could and did on several Saturdays do transactions her at her Mom and Dads house. When Lynn on her website offered a Worksman frame and it had a Sportsman Flyer badge on the neck. I had to and did purchase the Holy Grail of factory built drop loop bicycle frames. On the same Saturday Lynn also sold me a bootleg wide pedal crank expecting me to adapt it to a different transmission whose name I will not name as no one has seen fit the bootleg them.

Senior members of this forum are aware that the large majority of builders of engine powered bicycles don’t care what the part source is and that is what made me build a Huffy Davidson.

Lynnette is just trying to make a living the best way she knows how and her justification was if she could get there first with a knock-off rather than a Asian, well America first

Pat, You have every right to be indignant, if the shoe were on my foot I’d be mad as Hades.

Tom from Rubicon

 

[indian22]

Well stated Pat.

 

[indian22]

It may be legal but I don't feel its right for vendors to straight up rip off product copies without significant improvements to a design. I've ordered products from Lynn, wheels sets, disc ready primarily as I recall, but it's been years ago before the change of company name...which was a red flag for me but was perhaps harmless?

I've closed my circle of vendors to just a few for my builds, but try new ones from time to time on products of interest, but keep them on a short leash till they prove out. I'm not a fan of unethical behavior & that includes business practices...I've made up my mind on several vendors based on my standards. What others do or don't do is a personal decision based on their criteria for what they will put up with.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I'm finishing up on the battery mount for hybrid and the front end is complete, fork, brakes, electric hub all road worthy and complete for the time being. I ran out of daylight so no photos yet. I need a couple of hundred miles, or a significant problem to pop up, of testing before I'll know for certain I'm on the right track. I can do this in just a few days of purposeful riding. The battery is tucked up a couple of inches closer to the frame now and looks a bit more finished. It tracks good at moderate speeds of 35 to 40 mph rides and handles well too.

Still no test on washboard sections of gravel or dirt that really show how a bike behaves under duress...especially short wheelbase frames. Though you put lip stick and pearls on a pig it's still just hog! Bikes may look great and ride ok on smooth paved roadways but get them out on some of these seldom maintained secondary stuff roads and they can scare you to death or worse. I'm not building a dirt bike just testing on sections of road I know have surfaces that reveal a bikes true nature.

I'm sure we will encounter our share of secondary road surprises on our Fall ride. A couple of guys are going to ride the finalized map route on motorcycles to make sure they're passable. Hard rains this summer caused a lot of road and bridge washouts on secondary roads so this is a wise precaution I'd think.

The next item is to build a saddle suspension that will work with the rear drop plate extension that will effectively increase my wheelbase to approximately 53" total and mount the new wheel and rim. Final tire selection will come after I see how much room is available for tire clearance with the new dimensions and the new hub.

Rick C.

 

[PeteMcP]

Rick,
Your comments re girder fork rebound consequences had me a little worried for a while. But the differences between where you and I plan to ride our cycles makes me confident I won't ever bottom-out the forks on the paved roads I exclusively ride on. Your up-coming group ride-out on the modded Grubee sounds like a blast. Looking forward to reading a review and seeing pics of the stretched bike. I'm betting there'll be more mods to come further down the line. Is a build ever finished...?

 

[curtisfox]

Rick,
Your comments re girder fork rebound consequences had me a little worried for a while. But the differences between where you and I plan to ride our cycles makes me confident I won't ever bottom-out the forks on the paved roads I exclusively ride on. Your up-coming group ride-out on the modded Grubee sounds like a blast. Looking forward to reading a review and seeing pics of the stretched bike. I'm betting there'll be more mods to come further down the line. Is a build ever finished...?

Pete! So true, also setting back and watching, Love what you are doing Rick, be best of both worlds.......Curt

 

[indian22]

Rick,
Your comments re girder fork rebound consequences had me a little worried for a while. But the differences between where you and I plan to ride our cycles makes me confident I won't ever bottom-out the forks on the paved roads I exclusively ride on. Your up-coming group ride-out on the modded Grubee sounds like a blast. Looking forward to reading a review and seeing pics of the stretched bike. I'm betting there'll be more mods to come further down the line. Is a build ever finished...?

Thanks Curtis and yes I want the Hybrid to work both town and country..

Pete my builds on any vehicle never seem to end & this goes back to the sixties. Change of ownership normally ends my participation, but not always.

Road surfaces on secondary routes are complicated here by recent weather events and passing rural homes guarded by large, fast and not friendly canines which means running 35 mph regardless of the roads condition past the **** hounds. I suppose they eat their kills and bury the evidence. So rider comfort is just part of my reason for the current changes. I'm riding on gravel type tires that are 2.25" with pretty good clearance and I'm thinking 2.4" Maxxi Holy Roller tires will clear both chains with the dropout extension, but the larger tire may stand too tall to clear the fork. 2.2" Maxxi would be my choice if tire height is a problem.

I've cut my steel pattern & drilled the necessary bolt patterns to transfer to the other plates for both sides of the dropouts. Still waiting for the 38 tooth sprocket to arrive and a couple of parts for the saddle suspension as well. I decided to see how a coil spring/shock setup like I have on the Harley, will work. If I'm not pleased I'll do the air spring/air shock combination I use on the Simplex.

Photos when I have something actually assembled...no matter how ugly!

Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

I don't know about paved roads in the UK Pete, but in the States the folks driving Cadillac's monitor road conditions. The rest of us are subject to their decisions.
Tom from Rubicon

 

[Ludwig II]

Roads here are suffering from governmental cutbacks, except, from what little I've seen of £££ neighbourhoods, where they mysteriously improve and then deteriorate when you leave them.

Funnily enough, every time a general election is threatened, there is a postitive frenzy of road repairing. It happens too often to be a coincidence, but I'm damned if I know the logic behind it.

 

[indian22]

Frame extension plates are cut out and ready to mount, still waiting on the drive sprocket to come in...shipping snafu created a bottleneck. No need to hurry without all the pieces in hand for proper clearance and final fitting, but I'm running out of September rather quickly and I'd like some time to test these changes prior to our planned adventure.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Took a short test ride after the extensions were installed and coupled with the new billet hub and wheel all seems fine. I clearanced the 203 mm rotor and caliper, but ran out of energy before I ran the brake line and installed the dual pull lever so that's to do.

I'm already liking the bikes feel with the extra length provided by the wheelbase extension. I've left final shaping of the extension plates contours until I've decided on a rear rack and trailer hitch setup for longer rides and everyday shopping trips. Both are extremely useful additions and the extension plates offer extremely robust mounting surfaces 3/8" thick steel. Panniers for extra lithium packs and gear can be added with the rack for the long ranging Lone Ranger.

Rick C.