Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Hi Steve, Good question. We still see a few horse drawns here and have a community of Amish neighbors as well. Seat springs were common finds in scrap bins not too long ago, but haven't seen a set laying around in sometime. They were handmade in pairs and installed facing each oter radius facing out. Since they carried only the weight of the occupants they were pretty springy. I googled and found 300 lb. 2 leaf rating common. Which makes me think they could be built into a pack that would work if handmade spring pricing was in your wheel house. I bought my 5 leaf pack for under $70. U.S. I know 1,200 lbs. seems a lot for a bike, but with the spring cut in half and carrying the weight of rider and bike, magnfied by the leverage of the fork leg and speed of the bike...not forgetting the size of some of our road hazards and a higher than anticipated spring rating might be very welcome. I have a 500 lbs. coil seat spring on my Peashooter saddle and it is inadequate to support my 175 lbs. this due to leverage of the saddle at the required mounting angles I was faced with...I have an 800 lb. spring on order.
Sorry to throw so much out there but i've used a lot of springs over the years and selected the wrong ones about half the time. So if any have thoughts on this sound off because I'm 50 percent certain I'm wrong. Springs designed to carry the bulk weight of vehicle and load less the unsprung mass seem to be a better option from my viewpoint, with preload figured in with rate and length of cycle and maximum compression and droop of each cycle calculated, but again it's only for a bicycle lol. Love this stuff. Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Rick. there is as much chance of me building a leaf spring fork as there is of owning a lake side cabin in Siberia but I had often wondered about the buggy seat springs when I see people looking for suitable springs fork building fork suspensions.

I thought I'd ask an expert while I had a chance. I saw one seller that sold single springs 22" or 25" for $60 or a set of them for $110. Just seemed like a reasonable price to start with new springs. The cycle kart builders buy them and split up the sets to use on their cars. One full set of springs does all four corners.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Those little carts are so cool! John Zink special or Barsoil quarter mile cars for sure.You got a laugh out of me with the "expert" tag, but I am enjoying watching Harold B., Wret and others build forks around leaf springs...'course you're familiar with the great Curtis forks as well. I've been such a fan of the classic Indian motos over the years, but have never built a leaf fork for any style motorcycle or moto bicycle and really don't know why; cause I've certainly used leafs on rods and trucks 'aplenty. I've always liked the look of the truss and leaf Excelsiors...with curved primary legs. I also prefer axle leading style rockers as well. No Keystone on this one I'll pretty much just build around what Pat sends me, fork and engine will be where I spend my time. I'll probably just opt for his wide pedal and reduction drive as well since all drive and frame components are made for the Predator and his hub adaptor, and now the 3D manual clutch.

One degree here this morning with snow on the ground and minus seven wind chill so building some things in my head and trying to stay warm. Rick C.

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

This is one of those threads that I've been watching for a very long time with great admiration...
I really just have to say how much I love what you're doing!

There are a few bike builders here who really build on a higher level such as Jeff Wolf & Pat at Sportsman...
I have to admit, what you're doing here is right up there with them!

Leaf spring forks would look perfect on your bikes!

 

[indian22]

Thanks Norm for the huge compliment and hope you are aware that I am also one of your fans as well as those you mentioned. I visited your website a few days ago and was once again blown away by the variety of creativity presented in your builds. It's been close to thirty years since I've walked Venice beach, but if I get back I'm looking you up...till then great success to you, Pat & Jeff in your commercial and personal endeavors...you have all earned them, while just doing what you love! As for me I'm still just having fun. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I've been trying various ideas for converting the 5 speed foot operated gear selector to a hand operated lever mounted on the opposite side of my Peashooter. The concept is quite simple actually yet I've discarded each to this point either because they've looked strange or felt hinky in operation...or both. Since all these failed attempts have concentrated on rearward mounted "Jockey" shift lever I'm redirecting my efforts to a foward, right hand shift position. I remain intent on retaining the left hand clutch & right front brake levers mounted on the bars, which are the Harley style Sportsman I have on order. This bar design will lower the bikes race heritage profile and the throttle grip will be better positioned and at hand for a forward mounted shift lever. Safe control and efficient operation: function and form. I still think the jocky would be cool but in end (like my handle bar design) I didn't like the look or the feel in operation on this build. Worked fine but to me...hinky. Working out details. Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

Have you used mechanical rod linkages, or cables?

 

[indian22]

Ludwig I've used both. I had a 27" auto transmision cable which worked fine though too long. Shorter versions are readily available but I didn't care for the look of it, even when routed through tubing. The rod linkage worked just as well and looked ever so much better from shift stub to the point of crossover, but that being where a lot is already going on around the pedal side rear of the motor and since I want to keep the bulk of the mechanism low on the frame I didn't like the shift lever look or placement with rod linkage though cable did allow many solutions for shift lever placement.

Bottom line both rod and cable functioned fine but neither pleased me...guess I'm just not a jockey shifter type, I know I could adjust to the required motion for making gear changes, but don't want to.
I hope the new handlebars and altered gear lever location looks and feels right. I feel that rod linkage will be my choice this time. Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

Thought. A small thought, and probably not ideal, but what about a simple vertical tube from the gear selector stub, with the clutch lever at the top? It would look old fashioned and be minimal.

 

[wret]

Rick, I initially bought the lightest trailer spring set I could find, 800 lb I think. I found that all the trailer springs I could find on the internet seemed to have the same sized leafs, just more or less of them. All seemed to be 1.75" wide x 1/4" thick. Although I've never actually seen an early leaf sprung Indian, the internet abounds with clear pictures of them and my estimate put them at 2" x 1/8". I struck out trying to find a source of contemporary leaf springs of these dimensions.

I played around with the springs first as it seemed the most difficult (at least outside of my current skill set) and not very costly. I learned a little bit about how to bend them (and how not too), and decided that the look of the trailer spring was not to my satisfaction.

I remembered someone, maybe on this forum, mentioned snowmobile springs and I quickly found a single spring pack from a 70's Ski-doo for a very reasonable cost. This is what I ended up using. The mounting eye is bit small but big enough for a 3/8 bolt, which I thought was adequate. A single spring pack didn't gave me 1 leaf short of what I wanted, but I could add another later if I'm not happy with the spring rate. If you look closely at the original Indian spring pack, you will note that the bottom spring has an eye for a clip to hold the back together. I welded an eye from a gate spring to the end of a leaf to simulate this. There is also a leaf near the top of the stack with eye in it. I'm not 100% sure what the purpose of this eye is (maybe it can hold things together if the loop fails?). Anyway this was the one I had to delete.

I did find that with some decent pre-load, the spring loop was a little collapsed and I added a rubber spacer/bumper. This should keep the loop from being overworked.

 

[curtisfox]

Yes! That's what i used, and worked really good 2" wide 1/8" thick..............Curt

 

[indian22]

Thought. A small thought, and probably not ideal, but what about a simple vertical tube from the gear selector stub, with the clutch lever at the top? It would look old fashioned and be minimal.

Ludwig your original question posed equally excellent choices to help solve the gear selector relocation dilemma I've self imposed, partially to retain a classic period look while retaining a certain degree of safe and enjoyable cycling. Now you present an appealing alternative that would look quite right, keep the mechanics simple and at the same time be very different from what many enthusiasts would expect in a gear change lever. I envisage a brass shift lever with a sculpted pistol grip and a clutch activation lever with a solid rod linkage leading down the length of the shift lever to activate the clutch... all in brass. A clutch lock could be added as well. The whole look would be early agrarian farm implement. Left hand shift and clutch and I really like the look of what I'm imagining. The prospect of operating it from a bent over board track riding position on a frequent basis is to me not too appealing however. I'd love see it incorporated in a lovely roadster build with reach back bars, high saddle and brass gas lanterns front and rear. Too cool!

Running a left hand shifter straight off the case stub is an easy solution, if one switches the position of both clutch and front brake lever. Right hand clutch and left hand brake on the handlebars. Not hard to get used to. One draw back is operating the clutch and throttle (to keep a cold, or hot engine running) at idle could pose a certain dexterity skill not posessed by some. Of course a thumb throttle replacing the tradional twist is an answer that mimicks the reality of the on off hacksaw "throttle" of early racing bikes. As we see lots of possibilities when you start changing things from the ordinary and expected.

Actually nothing I've mentioned actually works better or is as simple as the factory foot shifter and bar clutch, but really simple isn't just what I'm looking for. Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

It's a pity you haven't got the Jawa/CZ slickshift option where the gearchange could be disguised as a foot clutch, and simply mount a dummy gearchange on the tank.

 

[Venice Motor Bikes]

Here's the Jockey shifter on my old Triumph 650... This can help give you some ideas.
I made the shifter from a Schwinn bicycle fork.

 

[indian22]

Ludwig I rode a Cushman Eagle 8 hp scooter 1959 thru 1961come rain or snow that featured suicide (foot clutch), foot operated rear drum,left hand tank shift and hand lever front brake: that kept a rider constantly involved. I can't recall taking a spill or of others stepping off their similarly equipped mounts unaware. Good days and adventures they were when most secondary roads went unpaved and our small wheeled transports battled the deep ruts of dirt roads...that did at times dismount us all. Great training for our graduation to full sized scramblers and such on the off-road courses and bottomless red mud of the back country.
Our reflections of by gone days are most often greatly enhanced...either much better than it actually was or worse than others could ever believe. Nostalgia can be treated but never completely cured...Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Yes! That's what i used, and worked really good 2" wide 1/8" thick..............Curt

Curtis they ended up looking good as well. You do great work. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Here's the Jockey shifter on my old Triumph 650... This can help give you some ideas.
I made the shifter from a Schwinn bicycle fork.

Norm your rockin' the Bonny....choice build! I like the re-purposed Schwinn fork shift lever and how 'bout using that brass "attitude adjuster" as a shift knob? I bounced bars as a youth and wouldn't be caught dead (literally) 'cause I carried brass, blade, quarters & slap just tools of the trade. A good leather belt with a big brass buckle kept my pants up till it was called on to drop another to the saw dust. Not my finest occupation or proudest moments... nor my worst as it turned out. Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

Curtis they ended up looking good as well. You do great work. Rick C.

Thanks Rick, have 2 to finish and send off. Been a long in doing, but working on them now. Get this stuff done so can do my own build........Curt

 

[fasteddy]

I was laughing when I saw the knuckle duster on your shifter as well Venice. In the days when I was able to ride I had a few friends who would have made it easily detachable from the shifter for up close and personal moments when needed.

The fork leg is a bit of builder genius.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Steve I assumed it was detachable. Norm I had an old tapered steel chain stay to attach to the stub, to try out as a concept and honestly I like the simplicity enough to stop the tinkering and try this first when I get it up and going. Actually running a reversed cIutch and brake lever position on the bars doesn't bother me. I will also cut a curved and tapered fork leg to length as well and check that look out. Thanks Norm for sharing your idea and the great photos.

I also locked down all the elements of the "chuckle head" conversion and it's factory solid. I will need to age the brass and aluminum chemically and add a few tiny bits and pieces for accent and contrast, but 90 percent done with the brass side tubes and lifter cover. It will look so different with the Harley flat side tank and board track bars mounted. I quit fussing over the saddle choice till I get bars and tank installed. Absolutely beautiful today and wasted it on work instead of a ride. I must really be that old guy.

Rick C.: