It's getting old

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by fishguts, Nov 5, 2010.

  1. fishguts

    fishguts New Member

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    I've only been here a couple months and I enjoy 90% of what's here, but I honestly have to say I've grown weary of empty promises and come-on's by would-be MB product developers and suppliers.

    They make promises and post teaser photos of some great frame design or fuel tank or chain tensioner or whatever they're going to produce or market and then don't bother to put up a functional web site and refuse to give prices: "PM me". People ooh and ahh at everything they post but they don't seem to actually produce anything, at least not for public consumption. So do some people get their jollies off this carrot and stick thing?

    I've certainly spent plenty of time on other forums and run one of my own, but this is the only place I've seen this behavior. Just wondering if this is part of MB culture? I hope not. It sure is annoying.

    Perhaps there could be a site policy that come-on's are prohibited and that products are not to be touted until they are ready for production.
     
  2. Venice Motor Bikes

    Venice Motor Bikes Custom Builder / Dealer/Los Angeles

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    Any of that about me???
    My new web site is still under construction, & there isn't a product that I've talked about that can't be purchased as we speak. :)

    There's a lot of very creative people here who designed some very good parts; but most only do this as a hobby.
     
    #2 Venice Motor Bikes, Nov 5, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2010
  3. fishguts

    fishguts New Member

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    Wasn't actually thinking about you ... but if the shoe fits ....ha ha! I too really appreciate all the creativity here and understand it's a hobby for most people, including me. But it is pretty weird that there are a number of threads promoting one thing or the other that never seem to materialize. It would probably be helpful if people said right up front their time and resources are limited and that they're pursuing a hobby and not running a business.
     
  4. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    Nope - that goes completely against the point of the forum, which is the free & open exchange of ideas, innovations & assistance. Our focus has always been our members, not the businesses that sell to them - were we to cater specifically to the retailer, we'd be unable to provide a clear and unbiased source of information.

    The forum sponsorship is primarily to give our members choices BTW - the amounts generated by those ads marginal at best, they don't provide enough to cover server costs let alone "sponsor" aspiring "independent contractors" lol
     
  5. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Thanks BarelyAWake, well said. Fishguts I know how you feel it's very frustrating but again some of the forum members only build as a hobby, so be patient the new year is fast approaching I like to think positively and that some new and very exciting & wonderful things are happening in the design / build & fabrication of motorized bicycling from our members & from our forum sponsors.

    Like the Rock song say's the lyrics for the song tell of the singer meeting a "devil woman" and her giving him love. The chorus of the song includes the song's famous stutter and speaks of her looking at him with big brown eyes and [saying] 'You ain't seen nothin yet. B-, b-, b-, baby, you just ain't seen na, na, nothin yet. Here's somethin' that you're never gonna forget. B-, b-, b-, baby, you just ain't seen na, na, nothin yet.'

    So Here's somethin' that you're never gonna forget. B-, b-, b-, baby, you just ain't seen na, na, nothin yet.

    Peace Crazy Horse.
     
  6. camlifter

    camlifter Active Member

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    i'm probably more guilty of this than anyone else. although we did offer and sell clutch kits and gas tanks, very few people from the forum bought them and it soon became apparent thet we were working for less than minimum wage if we were to sell them a price point that people would buy. so we scaled back to just building them for our own builds where they added enough value to the total bike to pay for themselfs.
    the v twin, your right, we should have never shown pics untill we were ready but we were as high on showing it as everyone was to see it. there are still plans to do it but as of now it's in the pattern shop jail. we took our patterns to a pattern shop to have them checked and blueprints made, they suggested some changes and we've been waiting ever since, thats been over 3 months. we'll have it but i can't say when.
    some times it takes a lot longer than what people think to perfect a new product. the big auto makers take years to develop something and they have teams of engineers working for them.
     
  7. 2door

    2door Moderator
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    Fishguts,
    Just a suggestion here, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to check the 'Swap & Shop' section occasionally. We try to keep self promotion out of the question and answer forums and often move a members posts regarding availability of a part he has developed and is making available to others. This is to keep that exchange of information that Barley Awake mentions, flowing between members without the distraction of having to wade through the "buy my part" suggestions, which by the way is against forum rules, when a member has a problem or asks a question about his bike. I know of several items that have been developed by members and can be found in the 'Swap & Shop' area.
    Tom
     
  8. fishguts

    fishguts New Member

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    What thoughtful and helpful responses - thanks, guys.

    There are some pretty neat parts in the pipeline here ... maybe I'm a little too anxious to see them come to market! I guess that's a good thing - that there are things worth looking forward to.

    I just have to pace myself ... breathe ... relax ... ohhmmmmm........
     
  9. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    Another difficulty regarding vendors and their products is a common misconception - while obviously we appreciate innovation and even the availability of items difficult or even impossible for the average builder to fabricate themselves, our forum is primarily focused on the "do it yourselfer" the "the free & open exchange of ideas, innovations & assistance" mentioned above. We as staff as well as thousands of members spend countless hours exchanging ideas and trying to assist each other for no reason other than the love of the hobby, no compensation save a thanks & the knowledge that someone is now riding happily.

    Some see this as a business opportunity & rightfully so, there's huge potential for new and innovative products, any number of items that if offered could make our builds easier, even safer - but the fact remains that if you're more interested in profit than assistance, if rather than a tutorial explaining how to make something yourself you simply wish to offer your wares without alternative - then the bottom line is you're after our members' hard earned cash, not helping them. This is all well and good, the very definition of capitalism and even needful to have a successful business - but it's not what we're here for, we are not to be used solely as an advertising platform for any commercial interest, if there's a product to offer, a business to promote - then it goes in our 'Swap and Shop' section. If that product is good enough it will be recommended by other members as a viable solution, recommending your own products as "solutions" is so obviously biased it's simply unacceptable, without explanation or alternative it's insulting to all those offering their assistance and advice for free.

    We do value our vendors of course, without their products we'd have little to build our bikes with. Some of our vendors go out of their way to assist those having difficulty with their products and those we value most of all. Yet time and again we'll find that's not a primary interest and when threads get created with a commercial interest or questions answered with mere self promotion - we contact that vendor and remind them that all self promotion in the interest of profit belongs in 'Swap and Shop' and as such their threads/posts get moved/deleted as per our rules.

    Sadly some don't see the inherent conflict of interest between this forum's philosophy and their profit generation, some even see our 'Swap and Shop' section as some sort of reprimand instead of a subforum specifically created for the exchange of their products and their self promotion and get irate - either refusing to continue a thread moved there or trying to circumvent our rules and incurring punitive actions, up to and including bans. Add in any number of ineffective or overpriced products, ideas that never went anywhere or were even just poorly conceived - the sheer number of folks that see our member base as an opportunity to make a quick buck instead of promoting creativity and you may begin to see why there's so many apparent "empty promises and come-on's"...personally - I see this as a sort of "Darwinism", any vendor unwilling or unable to understand and comply with such basic etiquette, those that in anger no longer remain active or ignore staff intervention and incur infractions or even bans, then simply put - they're not worth doing business with anyway as they're obviously unethical in the extreme, their selfishness and greed obvious they never seem to realize they're only hurting themselves in their spite.

    As with anything there are of course some exceptions, as stated above - we greatly value those vendors that participate on our forum to assist our members experiencing difficulty with their products, those vendors in particular understanding the value, the inherent self-promotion of exemplary customer service that such assistance provides. There's those vendors that are in the middle of R&D, seeking feedback from our member base to improve items not available yet, there's those that go out of their way to help our members even with problems that have nothing to do with any of their products - understanding that every post they make as a titled dealer is in fact self promotion, that they are in actuality helping themselves as much as they're helping our members and that's fine - even commendable.

    Unfortunately for every "ethical" vendor - there's any number that will try and "sneak" in shameless self promotion and as a result we've had to enforce our rules a little more than we'd like & the more this becomes prevalent - the more strict we have to be to preserve the integrity of this forum, unfortunately this can have a detrimental effect on those few vendors that respect our forum's philosophy, but we've little choice given the abuses others inflict. Our 'Swap and Shop' subforum is NOT a punishment - please do create threads to promote products and businesses there, members can and should post their queries for the vendors to answer in those threads & the more this is done, the better that subforum will be.

    Bottom line: If you've something to sell, be it a component, bike or even a business name - it goes in 'Swap and Shop' & if it's good enough others will promote it for you, the rest of the forum is for our members and their projects not profiteering. Should anyone see an infringement of our rules - report it.
     
    #9 BarelyAWake, Nov 6, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2010
  10. Creative Engineering

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    This says it all...

    I have a lot of respect for these guys.

    Jim
     
  11. WildAlaskan

    WildAlaskan New Member

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    just think if you got into this hobby five or ten years ago if you think we dont have enough products and idea around now i think it must have been a real problem back in the day even just for a simple problem this forum has helped out zillions of people even non members i myself came up with several solutions from this forum months before i even became a member

    im personly glad that if i have the cash there are performance products i can buy or simply decals or little upgrades and its even better to do it yourself after getting an idea from here and maybe even modifying it
     
  12. bairdco

    bairdco a guy who makes cool bikes

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    i'm part of this problem, too, and i'm sorry about that.

    i've been trying to get frames and forks going for months now, and when i finally thought i had a deal worked out, i got excited and posted that i'd have them soon.

    i was quoted a certain price, and led to believe that it was a done deal, and when i was finally ready to order, the prices jumped 400%. not only can i not afford to buy them at that price, but i'd never be able to sell them if i did.

    now my calls and emails aren't getting returned, and it looks like it was all a waste of time. i haven't completely given up yet, but the future looks pretty dim.

    it really blows. it frustrates me that i can't get the bikes i wanted to build, and it's doubly frustrating to put my reputation on the line and end up with nothing.

    i'm just glad no one lost any money over it.
     
  13. WildAlaskan

    WildAlaskan New Member

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    dont worry baidco i forgive you im sure fishguts will to and as for those perfect frames what do you think of this frame here its made for motorizing it comes with three brakes and disk brake mounts for front fork plus built in gas tank and hd hubs with double walled rims and it does look nice

    im trying to figure out whats the deal man theres gotta be more to the story some sort of down side

    sorry fish guts for jackin your thread man please forgive me

    heres a link http://blowbyu.ca/76943.html the one i have in mind is the gt2
     
    #13 WildAlaskan, Nov 7, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2010
  14. bairdco

    bairdco a guy who makes cool bikes

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    i'll pm you what i really think of that bike...
     
  15. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    Bairdco,
    I'm really sorry to hear that you got jacked around and used by that company. I think they played you to get ideas. You deserve better and anyone who knows you understands that you are a man of integrity. Every one of your builds demonstrates that. It would have been a great bike and we were all rooting for you. I still am in whatever you do.
    SB
     
  16. fishguts

    fishguts New Member

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    This ain't jackin the thread - just the sort of response I was hoping for. And BarelyAWake's response was really really great - gives me a deeper appreciation for what this site is about.

    Maybe a section for "Prototypes and New Product Development" ...



    So do "Super Moderators" get to wear a cape or something?

    We need a smiley dude riding a MB with a cape flapping behind him!
     
  17. fishguts

    fishguts New Member

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    Same goes for me.
     
  18. Nougat

    Nougat New Member

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    I like the idea of a "Prototypes" section. Part of deciding whether to bring a new thing to market is finding out whether people will buy it at a price you can get it manufactured for. If talking about "possible products" is verboten, nobody can really do any market research, and nothing new gets made.
     
  19. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    Nougat, talking about "possible products" isn't "verboten" by any means, not only is it encouraged - in fact every innovation made here is a potential product & we've any number of threads created with just that in mind - it's just that when it comes time to sell, it goes in 'Swap and Shop' as we're far more interested in that innovation, far, far more interested in the "do it yourselfer" than a company's promotion & profit.

    "...we greatly value those vendors that participate on our forum to assist our members (and) ...those vendors that are in the middle of R&D, seeking feedback from our member base to improve items not available yet"

    In a way, you could say each and every build thread, every new and innovative method to make something better is in fact a potential product, the response all the market research that's needed. With that in mind, I see no need for a "prototypes" section as each and every build is a "prototype" in it's own way lol, something "new" gets made with almost every build and any idea more than welcome to be discussed in it's appropriate subforum already ;)



    ...and no fishguts, "super moderators" don't get capes, we learned pretty quick that capes & bikes get along WAY too well... I suppose we could wear tights with our undies on the outside, but then we'd be mistaken for spandexers OMG

    |.o
     
  20. Nougat

    Nougat New Member

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    I get that, but there's a difference between "Here's how you might fabricate this yourself," and "I think I could get these manufactured if enough people were interested in buying. Do you think you'd buy this at $x?" The former is obviously fine. The sense I get is that the latter is only just tolerated.
     

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