Indian Tadpole

[fasteddy]

Got the bottom bracket apart and Tom was right there was a lot of dismantling. I put it all in a small box so it didn't get lost.
Took it all apart and removed the C clips and pulled the pedal shaft out.

Put a piece of 1" with a 1/8" wall, tubing in between the bearings as a spacer at Rick recommended. The inside diameter is 3/4" so it slid on the shaft and up against the bearing perfectly. Tapped the shaft over to the clutch side and put the clutch back on and tightened the split collar down to hold the clutch together tight.

Moved the shaft tight against the left side of the bottom bracket and there was a lot of room left on the key way. The mount that holds the pedal sprocket goes on first then the sprocket is attached.

As I expected there needs to be a C clip on the right hand side against the bearing since the clutch is powerful enough to pull the shaft through the pedal sprocket clamp.

Not sure how to do this but after I mark where it needs to go I'll take it all apart and see what's up. Current thought is to put my larger tubing cutter on it and cut a groove in the shaft until it's deep. It should leave a groove wide enough for the C clip as well as well.

There can't be any play in the clutch side since the movement of the clutch arm is very short and movement will take away from the clutch disengaging properly.

Will this work or is there another way to cut the groove.

Could this be the final fix, if you will. Hope so.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Steve you've almost got it! Before you start turning a split ring grove on the pedal side first consider what the assembled pedal side will look like or could look like (without the split ring), installed and bolted together, including pedal levers. The purpose of the split ring can be duplicated by slipping a lock collar on the out side of the pedal sprocket and locked down. You might require a small bushing slipped over the 3/4" shaft to properly space out the sprocket to achieve a straight chain line. Once the correct clutch position is set and the pedal chain line is perfect the split collar on the pedal side when locked down holds it all in proper relationship. If you want added security to insure the clutch can't pull the axle, then a short shaft collar can be cut to slip over the shaft and butted up flush to the face of the split collar and the cotter pedal.

The shaft could be pulled by a winch line from the motor drive side and not be moved till things started bending and breaking with this setup. Although a competent machine operator would make short work of turning a groove, I have to think that the solution I've presented gives you more flexibility to adjust & hold that seemingly very narrow window of adjustment on the clutch side. Any slight adjustment could be made from the pedal side...the chain line on the right not being as critical as that on the clutch side.

The critical part of this relies on removing any additional slack movement of the shaft. You've already determined the slight clearance required for the clutch to function properly and the small additional slack that exists between the original c clips, so this is the known clearance tolerances that work and are therefore what you require on the pedal side for the clutch to function properly. The final adjustment is determined by the short shimming between the bottom bracket and the pedal sprocket assembly which locates the sprocket for a good chain line, but also takes any shaft play out as well, a precise fit with this shimming isn't critical get the chain line straight to eye. Once this is done the sprocket assembly is mounted in the keyway and adjusted for that slight amount of slack required for the clutch to function and is tightened. Then the split collar snugged up tight to the sprocket assembly and tightened. The "safety" tube is slipped over the shaft last & should face up tight to both the lock collar& the pedal lever. It's purpose is that of a shade tree mechanics lock nut, not allowing the side load pressure of the clutch to move the shaft laterally. That if you recall was the purpose of installing a similar spacer in between the two bottom bracket bearings. nothing in this setup can move laterally except the working components of the clutch, with the exception of the minute lateral clearances required for rotational efficiency.

You're still on track Steve.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I should have mentioned the side load solution earlier, at the time I addressed the need to stabilize any movement of the bottom bracket bearings to prevent the components of the bottom bracket pushing out the right side & they would. Even quality sealed bearings are not designed to take a lot of lateral pressure, the bearing cages are just not designed that way, but given that's what we have to work with, this design will minimize the chances of bearing cage failure. The split rings would be dealing with this same issue. When setup as described, within your observed clearance settings, this will work Steve.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I love the personal stories shared...life is messy but it's quite entertaining as well.

Rick C.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

That's rather special, knowing somebody who rode a dawn age bike.

It was Ludwig, Ron Lundquist and several men I apprenticed under were riders of the early days. They all would roll up a pants leg to show you an exhaust pipe burn scar.
Tom from Rubicon

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Thank you, Tom,

I had seen Indian looking Thor's but never linked the two. I wonder what caused them to stop manufacturing motorcycles. Economics maybe? Wasting you life away looking at Thor Motorcycles. I would prefer to look at it as enhancing your personal knowledge of vintage motorcycles.

Ludwig is right. It would have be great to hear from someone who rode a motorcycle from the early years.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Rick's lock rings are the way to go unless a table top lathe becomes available on Craigslist turns up.
Tom from Rubicon

 

[Ludwig II]

I knew a man who had test flown many WW2 era planes. I remember which one he told me was the actual sweetest to fly. Not the fastest or most manoeuvrable, just the nicest. I'll come back tomorrow when everybody's had a chance to suggest what it was.

 

[indian22]

I knew a man who had test flown many WW2 era planes. I remember which one he told me was the actual sweetest to fly. Not the fastest or most manoeuvrable, just the nicest. I'll come back tomorrow when everybody's had a chance to suggest what it was.

British or American?

 

[fasteddy]

Hi Rick,
With all the talk about what to do it I still managed to forget it. I'll slide a bronze washer next to the bearing and then the pedal sprocket and hold it all in place with a split collar. That should solve the problem.

The sprocket holder needs to be as close to the bottom bracket bearing as possible so the chain lines up. I'll be back at it tomorrow. A few hours in the garage at 35F annoyed me old pal Art Ritis to a major degree.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

My pal Dave was a Sargent/E6. He was in charge of an APC or armored personal carrier or as he called it an ACAV They went over a mine in the road and no one was hurt but they did get bounced around pretty hard and he smashed his elbow and knocked off a bone chip that bothered him for years.

Now he's going to the V.A. hospital to have it removed and I'm driving him home. It's 200 miles and we're leaving at an inhuman hour to get there for 6AM. No one's is up at that time except bakers and foot pads.

He's off to get prepped for the operation and I'm sitting a large waiting room with 40 chairs. Yes, I counted them. I'm dozing off and I hear his voice as he's being wheeled down the hallway. He's had the first shot of happy juice and he's in rare form.
Now I know my old pal and if he'd seen me look up who knows what would have happened. Too late. He's looked through the door and seen me.

It goes like this,

Dave to nurse, Whoa, stop. See that man in there. He was a P.O.W. for seven years.

Nurse doesn't know what to say but kind of chokes up a little.

Dave, Yep, seven long years. It was terrible but he finally got a divorce.

I heard that repeated at least two dozen time as people walked by as I sat there waiting for him to be released.

That in a nut shell was my pal.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

When I was in my late teens I met a young German chap who had emigrated with his parents to Canada. His cousin is Manfred Mann the singer.

I used to go over to his house and one day, out of nowhere, his Dad tells me he flew ME 109's. I told him my Uncle flew flying boats. He said they called them the Flying Porcupines since there was no way to attack them that didn't have a gun covering the attacker.

We talked about flying from his side of the war and he said that attacking bombers was a dangerous occupation made much worse if they had a rear gunner.
He got kind of quiet for a few seconds and then said having to shoot the rear gunner was nothing short of murder and he hated it as many pilots did.

Apparently the chaps in the rear were often asleep when he attacked. He said maybe it was the long hours or the cold or they had just come back from a leave or they were alone back there with no one to keep them awake but the guns would be pointing up or down and they could see the gunner wasn't moving.

He said you had to stay back just out of range and sneak forward slowly at a precise angle so none of the other crew member could see you. When you were with in range, you shot.

He did say that there were some of the gunners who were playing possum and just as you got within their range they got down to business. He had to bail out twice and was wounded both times and other times he was able to get back and land.

They moved shortly after that but it was interesting to hear the other sides view.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Hi Rick,
With all the talk about what to do it I still managed to forget it. I'll slide a bronze washer next to the bearing and then the pedal sprocket and hold it all in place with a split collar. That should solve the problem.

The sprocket holder needs to be as close to the bottom bracket bearing as possible so the chain lines up. I'll be back at it tomorrow. A few hours in the garage at 35F annoyed me old pal Art Ritis to a major degree.

Steve.

That's the concept Steve. Just remember that if that outside lock collar slips there is a ten cent fix to it with the tube slipped over the axle shaft and wedged against the paddle lever. Easy fix if the clutch pressure is too much for the lock collar to hold against, really simple.

Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Doubling the guarantee that it will work. Excellent idea Rick and I'll do it on both sides though the left side may be too hard to do.. Can't move if there is no place for it to go.

I'll try and get it finished tomorrow if possible. Art is ticked at the moment to the point that walking may not be an option. As long as I can still hold a dinner fork though life isn't a complete waste.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

As you said Steve, no place to go is the concept & the inside (pedal side) spacing was only mentioned if needed to align the chain by inserting a bit of tube or shim material as spacers. I included a lot of info for, "just in case' scenarios, that not only you but others might encounter. Live axle, jack shafts etc. for special applications that are too numerous to mention.

Some variations of this I've used in the field, as opposed to in my machine shop, have included adding spacers, usually washers, drilling the shaft and pinning with cotter (small shaft) or a bolt for larger shafts, welding a stop in place & even threading a short section of small diameter shaft or tube to use a lock nut (crown) and cotter etc. These were intended as temporary solutions to get machinery back into production but I'm sure some were never "correctly" repaired...just used.

When I sold my machine shop a couple of years back it was with the agreement that I could use the equipment when it was not being utilized on a job. This was a sweet arrangement, but sadly the new owner passed away and the shop machinery was sold off. So at the moment I'm without machine tools & only occasionally do I really require them for specific pieces and I can still have them machined locally as a favor. Though it's much slower I do rather enjoy making things using just hand tools & the internet!

Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

British or American?

Yes. Well, it could have been German or Italian or French; even Finnish or Rumanian. Or Japanese, let's not forget them. Even Australia, out at the edge of a supply route, had to make their own in a hurry.

Actually, yes, the plane was American.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

Ludwig, I vote Bell P-39 Airacobra the plane Chuck Yeager earned his wings in. Also did some deer hunting with.
Tom from Rubicon

 

[Ludwig II]

No, not that one. I like the thinking outside the normal names people come up with though.

 

[indian22]

No, not that one. I like the thinking outside the normal names people come up with though.

Navy/Marine corp. F-4U Corsair

 

[Ludwig II]

Nope. The airframe versions had a number of engine manufacturers, including a radial
.