Indian Hiawatha
- Thread starter silverbear
- Start date
Great read SB. Hope you enjoyed the afternoon sunshine and beautiful sunset. Ready to get after the gas tank? We should get Boellner over to the shop if he'd like to get his two cents in on the build. He definitely knows how to build a tank and it would be interesting to see where he comes from. Always good to get another take on things as well you know. Anyway, I think I have the goggles ready so I can deal with the cool country air and the 13 year old in me is ready to go! Dan
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
I'm very much looking forward to the tank work tomorrow. It would be real good to see Tim to squeeze his brain a little for another take on this tank. It will be interesting to see how it wants to be made. If we pay attention as we go, it will give us the clues we need. I'll also bolt those spiffy fenders and rear rack on tomorrow for inspiration's sake. Hope it's warm enough for a ride as it could be the last one for some time. We'll see if those old goggles from your grandfather will keep your eyes from watering in the cool wind...
When I was a kid Saturday was always the best day of the week (at least during the school year). Now it is again. Hey to Jackie & the boys. I'll bring a few sticks of wood for the stove.
SB
When I was a kid Saturday was always the best day of the week (at least during the school year). Now it is again. Hey to Jackie & the boys. I'll bring a few sticks of wood for the stove.
SB
Saturday, what a great day it was when I was young. I practised for it all week as a matter of fact. Sunday was ok but when it was over it was back to school or work.
Saturday all the good TV was happening with endless cowboy or adventure movies and cartoons galore.
Hoping this saturday will be the end of the drywall installing but then there is the taping and sanding after that but then it's done.
Then it's back to bike building at long last.
Hope that the tank goes smoothly and quickly. The fenders will look great and spur you on to victory.
Steve.
Saturday all the good TV was happening with endless cowboy or adventure movies and cartoons galore.
Hoping this saturday will be the end of the drywall installing but then there is the taping and sanding after that but then it's done.
Then it's back to bike building at long last.
Hope that the tank goes smoothly and quickly. The fenders will look great and spur you on to victory.
Steve.
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Not a lot for show and tell from today's session in Tinsmith's shop as the weather was fair and the road was calling our names, it was. Honest, it was, so we played hooky from more responsible adult like activities and went riding our motor bikes instead. I did get the fenders and rear rack on the Indian Hiawatha. Forgot to bring my camera, so thank you to Dan's wife, Jackie for taking pictures.
I was taken aback a little bit, not expecting the bike to look so flashy. For a guy who usually considers black and cream a walk on the wild side, the candy cane colors made my eyes spin around a few times. I don't know if I like it or not. The cream tires with a black bike would have been fine and restrained enough and I'm thinking the red is OK, too, but maybe better with black tires? The rims will get painted red eventually and the fork will be the one Curtis Fox is making with a leaf spring suspension, so that will change the look some. Also there will be the canoe sidecar which will further alter the look.
What do you guys think? What would you do? I'd appreciate some help here. The last photo is of an Indian from the teens which is red with cream tires, so there is a precedent. I don't much care about what is or was original and am more concerned with what looks good, so I value your thoughts.
SB
I was taken aback a little bit, not expecting the bike to look so flashy. For a guy who usually considers black and cream a walk on the wild side, the candy cane colors made my eyes spin around a few times. I don't know if I like it or not. The cream tires with a black bike would have been fine and restrained enough and I'm thinking the red is OK, too, but maybe better with black tires? The rims will get painted red eventually and the fork will be the one Curtis Fox is making with a leaf spring suspension, so that will change the look some. Also there will be the canoe sidecar which will further alter the look.
What do you guys think? What would you do? I'd appreciate some help here. The last photo is of an Indian from the teens which is red with cream tires, so there is a precedent. I don't much care about what is or was original and am more concerned with what looks good, so I value your thoughts.
SB
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Allen_Wrench
Resident Mad Scientist
Holy...expletives fail me! That is too. too sweet! Are you making an in-frame tank for her. Wow. That's all I can say - wow.
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Allen,
Glad you like it, but would it be better with black tires? Yes, it is getting a coffin shaped copper gas tank in frame as soon as we figure out how to make it and stop playing hooky by riding instead of making.
Curtis,
I forgot. I did measure the for the length... fender from the axle nut to the top of the fender and is 14". From the axle nut (center) to the underside of the fork above the fender is more like 14 3/4". If the fork you're making is much the same length as the one on it now, that will work nicely I think, unless there's something I don't understand about how the fork will work. You understand this better than I do. The fender does not have to attach to the fork as it did before. I'll figure out how to secure it so it can't roll forward or backward.
SB
Glad you like it, but would it be better with black tires? Yes, it is getting a coffin shaped copper gas tank in frame as soon as we figure out how to make it and stop playing hooky by riding instead of making.
Curtis,
I forgot. I did measure the for the length... fender from the axle nut to the top of the fender and is 14". From the axle nut (center) to the underside of the fork above the fender is more like 14 3/4". If the fork you're making is much the same length as the one on it now, that will work nicely I think, unless there's something I don't understand about how the fork will work. You understand this better than I do. The fender does not have to attach to the fork as it did before. I'll figure out how to secure it so it can't roll forward or backward.
SB
Wow, that is perfect. White tires and all and with the sidecar polished up it will be more outstanding than it is now.
Your right I think about when everything is on the bike it will be less noticeable than it is now. The tank will be part of the focus as well as the sidecar.
Superb Sir.
Steve.
Your right I think about when everything is on the bike it will be less noticeable than it is now. The tank will be part of the focus as well as the sidecar.
Superb Sir.
Steve.
Thanks SB thats what I need. The Monark fork you sent is longer than a regular one.So I will keep track of that and make it as close as I can.
I am going to take the sholder bolts back and see what else I can fine they are to hard to turn on nthe lathe. Keep you posted...............Curt
I am going to take the sholder bolts back and see what else I can fine they are to hard to turn on nthe lathe. Keep you posted...............Curt
charliechaindrive.
New Member
holy crap! 0_o
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Thanks for the positive responses. I'm still not sure about the cream tires, but since I have them I'll make the decision later when the bike is all together. I had wanted the bike to stand out, and it does that all right.
I'm going to refer to the bike as a 1932 Indian Hiawatha. There was no such thing of course, but that's what we do here as builders... a little stretching of frames and parts... making our bikes into something they weren't before. Stretching the truth is part of it all especially for those of us doing board track tribute builds. Some are very much like the originals unless you really know. Goldy's Flying Merkel is an example of what I'm talking about... not an original, but very much in the spirit of and a wonderful build. Cobrafreak's Indian is another.
While my build started out with the intention to be something like a 1909 (or thereabouts) model, I knew it would be just "in the spirit of" and at best an approximation An original engine was on ebay recently and was listed with an opening bid of $8,000.00 if I remember right. A little beyond my budget. So, we do some fudging here and there.
Once I decided to let the 1909 idea go with the use of 1939 Hiawatha fenders and fender ornament, I could do pretty much what I wanted. So I focused on wanting it to be in the spirit of an early motorcycle. The use of "Indian" in the description now has more to do with the builder than the build. I have always felt some pride in the tradition of Indian motorcycles and the romance associated with it's name... proud that such a fine machine was named after the original Americans. So I give the bike an Indian head badge, fringe the hand grips and give it a canoe (invented by American Indians) sidecar and in my mind it is an "Indian".
Further, it has Hiawatha fenders and gives recognition to an historical figure who created the Iroquois confederacy which was a model for our form of democratic government. So that makes it Indian, too, in my thinking.
The "1932" part of the name is from the engine, a German model 1932 Fitchel & Sachs motorcycle engine, made between 1930 and 1950.
While there never was a 1932 Indian Hiawatha, now there is one.
Next weekend Dan and I expect to get going on the gas tank. See you in the Tinsmith's shop.
SB
I'm going to refer to the bike as a 1932 Indian Hiawatha. There was no such thing of course, but that's what we do here as builders... a little stretching of frames and parts... making our bikes into something they weren't before. Stretching the truth is part of it all especially for those of us doing board track tribute builds. Some are very much like the originals unless you really know. Goldy's Flying Merkel is an example of what I'm talking about... not an original, but very much in the spirit of and a wonderful build. Cobrafreak's Indian is another.
While my build started out with the intention to be something like a 1909 (or thereabouts) model, I knew it would be just "in the spirit of" and at best an approximation An original engine was on ebay recently and was listed with an opening bid of $8,000.00 if I remember right. A little beyond my budget. So, we do some fudging here and there.
Once I decided to let the 1909 idea go with the use of 1939 Hiawatha fenders and fender ornament, I could do pretty much what I wanted. So I focused on wanting it to be in the spirit of an early motorcycle. The use of "Indian" in the description now has more to do with the builder than the build. I have always felt some pride in the tradition of Indian motorcycles and the romance associated with it's name... proud that such a fine machine was named after the original Americans. So I give the bike an Indian head badge, fringe the hand grips and give it a canoe (invented by American Indians) sidecar and in my mind it is an "Indian".
Further, it has Hiawatha fenders and gives recognition to an historical figure who created the Iroquois confederacy which was a model for our form of democratic government. So that makes it Indian, too, in my thinking.
The "1932" part of the name is from the engine, a German model 1932 Fitchel & Sachs motorcycle engine, made between 1930 and 1950.
While there never was a 1932 Indian Hiawatha, now there is one.
Next weekend Dan and I expect to get going on the gas tank. See you in the Tinsmith's shop.
SB
cobrafreak
New Member
As long as you are building it for yourself you can legally call it whatever you want. If Sportsman Flyers were called Indians instead Pat might get a visit from a lawyer 
Silly intellectual property rights. It was easier for me to call my bike an Indian because Indian made a moped for number of years in the 80's and it was listed in the DMV as a maker of mopeds. The registration process was smooth. Also people were asking me if my bike was an Indian even before I had paint on it. It just made sense.
Silly intellectual property rights. It was easier for me to call my bike an Indian because Indian made a moped for number of years in the 80's and it was listed in the DMV as a maker of mopeds. The registration process was smooth. Also people were asking me if my bike was an Indian even before I had paint on it. It just made sense.
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Cobrafreak,
I'm glad to know you were able to register your Indian. What did you need to provide for the DMV? What about the displacement of the engine? Was that an issue? Does this mean then that it requires a license plate and insurance? I wouldn't mind paying what it costs or having it inspected. Just knowing it was legal would be great. Not that the process is necessarily the same in Minnesota... but your experience is bound to help someone, especially someone in California.
SB
I'm glad to know you were able to register your Indian. What did you need to provide for the DMV? What about the displacement of the engine? Was that an issue? Does this mean then that it requires a license plate and insurance? I wouldn't mind paying what it costs or having it inspected. Just knowing it was legal would be great. Not that the process is necessarily the same in Minnesota... but your experience is bound to help someone, especially someone in California.
SB
cobrafreak
New Member
Go to your States DMV web site and retested it as a moped on line. Say it's 150 cc and 2 HP and make a VIN number and plate. Yes you will need insurance. It I is very reasonable.Oh , lights and mirror and horn. Turn signals and brake light not required on mopeds.
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
Dan and I got started on the gas tank project today. I'm beginning to understand that this tank is not going to be easy to make in copper. Those of you who followed the making of the tin and copper version of the cantilever Schwinn tank last winter will recall that it had flat sides and was the same width front to back. This tank looked at from above will be coffin shaped so that it tapers in at the front and also at the back. Combined with the curved profile there is a lot going on. Dan said that a welded tank would actually be simpler to make than one in either tin or copper. I'm glad he's the one laying it out.
Dan started by making a cardboard template of the tank's profile, tracing the frame tubing onto cardboard with a sharpie pen, cutting that out and then tracing the cardboard pattern piece onto tin. The working pattern pieces will be tin and the first version of the tank will be in tin. Once that is made and learned from we'll make the final version out of copper. Tin is inexpensive. Copper is not, especially heavy gauge copper sheet like we'll be using.
Dan cut out the tin profile pattern piece with tin snips. Then he cut a long piece which will form the top, ends and part of the bottom all in one piece. Laying out where the bends will go to conform to the side profile is tricky business. This part of the process has to be right. If it isn't then everything which follows will be off.
(cont.)
SB
Dan started by making a cardboard template of the tank's profile, tracing the frame tubing onto cardboard with a sharpie pen, cutting that out and then tracing the cardboard pattern piece onto tin. The working pattern pieces will be tin and the first version of the tank will be in tin. Once that is made and learned from we'll make the final version out of copper. Tin is inexpensive. Copper is not, especially heavy gauge copper sheet like we'll be using.
Dan cut out the tin profile pattern piece with tin snips. Then he cut a long piece which will form the top, ends and part of the bottom all in one piece. Laying out where the bends will go to conform to the side profile is tricky business. This part of the process has to be right. If it isn't then everything which follows will be off.
(cont.)
SB
Attachments
charliechaindrive.
New Member
Wow. Can't wate till its first ride! Post more pics!
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
A couple photos didn't load, so here is the top piece with lines scribed where the bends will go. Usually a bend is best made crisp (sharp) and not rounded, but Dan wanted the end one to be rounded, feeling it would look better. For crisp bends he uses the brake, but tor the rounded one he uses a shaft like tool I don't know the name of. It is like a rod and he does the bend by hand power.
Next up is to fit the profile piece to the top to see how well the two pieces come together. If it is off, then he will need to do the long piece over again.
I have described the profile piece as the "side" piece, but Dan is planning to make use of the piece in the photo as a kind of backbone or brace inside the tank, tack soldered in place to help give the tank shape and some stability as the side pieces get soldered to the top piece. The two side pieces will be slightly larger to allow for a flange to be bent so that it fits over the long top piece. This will be more clear when we get to that point, probably next Saturday in the Tinsmith's shop. See you then.
SB
Next up is to fit the profile piece to the top to see how well the two pieces come together. If it is off, then he will need to do the long piece over again.
I have described the profile piece as the "side" piece, but Dan is planning to make use of the piece in the photo as a kind of backbone or brace inside the tank, tack soldered in place to help give the tank shape and some stability as the side pieces get soldered to the top piece. The two side pieces will be slightly larger to allow for a flange to be bent so that it fits over the long top piece. This will be more clear when we get to that point, probably next Saturday in the Tinsmith's shop. See you then.
SB
Attachments
silverbear
The Boy Who Never Grew Up
I can't wait either, but I'll have to. While a lot is done, there are a number of things to do once the copper tank is finished. At the beginning of the month Fasteddy is ordering a few parts from Germany which we each need for our Indians. Neither engine had threaded cable guides which are an odd size... 6mm. I haven't been able to find a source stateside as everything is either 8mm or 10mm. Pretty well need to have them. We also need exhaust gaskets and each engine was missing part of the shift lever setup. Steve's is more complete than mine, but we each of us need the rod which connects the transmission to the lever, which was originally mounted to the side of the gas tank. I'm also missing the lever itself, so will need to make one. I have the original gate and the wooden nob which fit onto the top of the shift lever. Steve (fasteddy) plans to order the special shift rod for his build, but at over 50 bucks I'll need to figure out how to make something.
And there are a number of other seemingly small things which can hang up the build and take time to resolve. So, it will be awhile, but I'll keep plugging away at it and with help from my friends it will get done. No matter how long it takes, it will be worth it. I have visions of riding it next summer with the dog in the sidecar... oh boy.
I'd be less patient if I didn't have anything else cool to ride, but I do. With unseasonably warm weather today, Dan rode his stretch Worksman and I rode my 50 Panther for a great 18 mile or so run. I ride along with a smile enjoying the Panther, but also imagining what it will be like with that red Indian and the sidecar. I know Dan is already thinking about his next build, too. Great to have a bike buddy who understands what this is all about... how cool it is to build a bike and then ride it. If you haven't done it, then you just don't get it. You guys know what I'm talking about...
Pictured below is the shift gate, wooden nob and a brass lever from a coffee grinder I was considering using, but am not. I'll make a lever more like the original. Also pictured is a 1935 German Triumph motorcycle with the shift arrangement and the same Sachs engine. Cool bike. Also pictured are the shift parts from a current German catalog. I'll be thinking about the lever and especially the connecting rod in the middle of the night until it comes to me how to make it. Part of the fun and satisfaction is in solving the problems.
SB
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