Indian Hiawatha

[silverbear]

After a couple of hours struggling to figure out how to upload photos from my new to me chrome book, I finally got it. Photos were taken recently in Maryland during a road trip with Fasteddy who was visiting his son in Vermont while I was visiting my son, daughter & grand kids in the Baltimore area. Tinsmith (Dan) & I became friends over the course of a few winters I spent care-taking a rural property north of Frederick, Maryland. We spent many a fine Saturday in his Tinsmith shop tinkering with gas tanks and such, followed by a fine lunch prepared by his wife, Jackie. Sometimes for desert we took a bike ride through the surrounding farm country. Saturday was always the best day of the week!

So it was a treat for me to spend a little time in Dan's shop. He agreed to "help" me make a copper tool box to go along with a fantastic copper gas tank made a couple winters back for the never ending Indian Hiawatha tri-car project. Dan admitted that the last work he did in the shop was that gas tank two years ago, so it was a real honor that he was willing to make the copper tool box.

First he cut out the end pieces in tin to get a feel for the tools in his hands again. First up was a machine designed to cut perfect circles. Then he ran each one through the burring machine to create a lip around the edge. a leather hammer tapped the edge into final shape. That done, he was ready to make the end pieces in copper.

As a side note, Dan no longer does metal work, his hands having given out on him after decades of abuse in the shop. There's a lot of handwork in tin-smithing and even the machines are operated by hand. What you see in these photographs are final images you might say in what is becoming a lost tradition. There are no young tinsmiths or copper-smiths who are replacing the old timers. Machines run by computers are taking over. Dan figures that when he is gone his tools will be sold for scrap. The opportunity I have had in spending time with Dan, learning from him just a tiny bit of what he knows has been a special thing for which I am grateful.
(cont.)
SB

 

[sportscarpat]

Hi Silverbear,
Thanks for sharing those pictures. Sorry to hear of a talented tin smith retiring. His quality work shows years of hands on accumulated skill. Hopefully you find a good home for his tools of the trade.
Take care,
Pat

 

[silverbear]

Pat, I wish I had more photos than I have to share. Unfortunately I was hit and miss between the work I had to do with my old trailer and visits to Dan. I would like to have shown the process more completely, but will post what I have. The way this tool box is made is loosely following the way tin candle boxes were made in the 1700's.

Back to our project... the first photo shows two practice end discs made of tin and the one of copper. It didn't take long for Dan to get the feel of the burring machine again. The hands remember what to do.

Much has been done in my absence. The main "body" and end pieces are cut and fit together, but not yet soldered. The two overlapping pieces which complete the "body" are sitting on the outside, but will be soldered to the inside. Dan is using a large soldering iron we call "big Bertha", of what wattage I don't recall. It is tiring on the wrist to use it for any length of time, being quite heavy.

The next photo shows the box soldered together with the clasp in place, but not yet soldered.

Another view of the same.

Dan made little "guides" for the clamps to fit through which keep them from moving side to side.

(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

The guides are now in place.

Dan makes a "pin" to hold the clasp closed.

The pin is done and so is the tool box.

Some eye candy showing Dan's stretch Worksman cruiser. Everything is as it should be, well done and firmly attached, understated and very much a reflection of Dan.

Coming up are some photos of the tool box in place on the tri-car.
(Cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

And it looks just as good as I thought it would! It goes nicely with the gas tank Dan made two years ago and with the copper center stand I cobbled together. I think a copper tail light would be in order here as well. I may move the tool box back a few inches to give it room from the seat... feels a little too close. And I may clean up the soldered joints some this winter. The stainless clamps look fine, I think. Thank you, Tinsmith, you have done yourself proud, sir!
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

One last closeup of the tool box and then two photos of brass bed parts I salvaged. The final picture shows the three pieces I think will make up the brass foot rest for the yet to be found wicker seat. Steve will be on the lookout for the right one over the winter and will make up the springs and mounts for the seat before Motor Bicycle Summer Camp(for boys who never grew up) 2015. Next summer it will run... vroom! Until then...
SB

 

[cannonball2]

Glad you are back SB. Yes its sad the amount of talent that is passing daily. We are just about out of the "hand made age" entirely. Fortunately there is still plenty of talent here on the forum. Hope some of the younger folks will pick it up and take it forward.

Is that going to be the "starter" battery container? If so you have ample room.

 

[silverbear]

CB2,
Yes, that's the plan at this point anyway. I don't have a clear picture in my head yet about whether the rear hub should be electric and if it is if it can have a sprocket on each side... one for the pedal chain and the other for the gas engine... or if I will need to make up a jack shaft and use a different kind of electric motor. As I discussed with you, the Sachs engine is started by pedal power and with my disability pedaling is no small thing, so I have been thinking about electric assist mainly for starting the engine. I'm thinking that 24 volts should be enough for that purpose. Good to know that the tool box will be big enough to house the batteries. Do you think there's enough room for the controller as well?
SB

 

[cannonball2]

Using a rear hub should be able to be done. One side will accommodate standard freewheels, while the other will mount a disc brake. If I remember correctly there are MB sprockets available that are made to bolt in place of a rear disc. This should get you where you want to go.
The 24v controllers are very small. Mine measures 3.5x2x1". Wires are more of a problem as theres a bunch of em. If you thin out all but the basic necessary wiring then its a pretty compact unit. You can use the cotton/asphalt type wiring conduit to get the wiring around the bike maintaining the vintage/antique look. For starting only(excepting a limp home usage) a single Lipo 6cell(6s) 5ah battery would do what you want. Fairly small and relatively cheap.

 

[silverbear]

CB2,
Thanks for responding. With disc brakes on both front wheels I should be okay in doing without on the back wheel. Gain one thing and lose another... or maybe I could make up a decent rim V brake. Nice to have something back there. Right now it is an old, but good Bendix coaster brake.

It sounds like this solution won't break the bank either, which I like! Do you have a preferred seller for both the hub and the controller, or is it a kit?
SB

 

[Allen_Wrench]

...What you see in these photographs are final images you might say in what is becoming a lost tradition. There are no young tinsmiths or copper-smiths who are replacing the old timers. Machines run by computers are taking over. Dan figures that when he is gone his tools will be sold for scrap. The opportunity I have had in spending time with Dan, learning from him just a tiny bit of what he knows has been a special thing for which I am grateful.
(cont.)
SB

AAAAAAAAAA! NO NO NO NO! We can't let that happen! If I cannot save Dan's hands then, dear Lord, let him live long enough for me to scrounge up the cash to rescue what tools I can afford. Dan has years and years left in him. I just know it. (That, and I might need a few years to round up the cash.) But you can't just scrap these tools.
And let's not forget: a few others on this forum know many of those milling and metal-fabbing tools on sight. I'm certain I'm not the only one who knows exactly what to do with those wonderful old tools.
They are Dan's while Dan is here. And they will likely be remembered as Dan's when he is not. But not scrap. Surely never scrap. And I hope not a museum either, where nobody will get to watch how well they work. Computers are not much fun to watch and, if you're used to creating things with your hands, computers just leave you kind of cold.

Did I kind of go off the deep end there? BTW: Dan, I really do feel bad about your hands too. Wish I could help there.

 

[Allen_Wrench]

And it looks just as good as I thought it would! It goes nicely with the gas tank Dan made two years ago and with the copper center stand I cobbled together. I think a copper tail light would be in order here as well. I may move the tool box back a few inches to give it room from the seat... feels a little too close. And I may clean up the soldered joints some this winter. The stainless clamps look fine, I think. Thank you, Tinsmith, you have done yourself proud, sir!
(cont.)
SB

SB! Tinsmith! This thing is friggin' awesome! It gets better every time I check in on this thread. You have seized hold of a moment in history with your bare hands and dragged it tangibly into this modern time, for people to stare at in awe! I can't wait to see this thing in running condition.

 

[Mr.B.]

So-Weet!!!

 

[cannonball2]

CB2,
Thanks for responding. With disc brakes on both front wheels I should be okay in doing without on the back wheel. Gain one thing and lose another... or maybe I could make up a decent rim V brake. Nice to have something back there. Right now it is an old, but good Bendix coaster brake.

It sounds like this solution won't break the bank either, which I like! Do you have a preferred seller for both the hub and the controller, or is it a kit?
SB

A kit is usually the cheapest way to go. The controllers and throttles are cheap enough but the hubs alone can get close to the kit price sometimes. The 24v stuff is the most uncommon. You can of course run any brushless hub on 24v but the wattage(torque) will suffer. When you are ready to buy let me know and I will see what I can turn up. I think the seller I have bought several kits from still has the 24v rears.
If you can run the more modern looking wheel that the kits come laced to, a rim brake would be easy. They have a nicely machined rim brake surface(runs very true) and will accept the larger tires with out a problem.

 

[silverbear]

Can you give me a ballpark figure for the 24V kit? With a rim brake I couldn't paint the rim, but I could paint all but the edge where the pads make contact. Wonder what that would look like? Probably would be okay, lost in the shuffle of everything else going on with the tri-car. Since it will be the only one of it's kind, I can just pretend it came that way. It wouldn't have had disc brakes up front, either. We make little compromises and try to remain true to the spirit of things, eh? Stopping is kind of important when you really need to.
SB

 

[curtisfox]

The guides are now in place.

Dan makes a "pin" to hold the clasp closed.

The pin is done and so is the tool box.

Some eye candy showing Dan's stretch Worksman cruiser. Everything is as it should be, well done and firmly attached, understated and very much a reflection of Dan.

Coming up are some photos of the tool box in place on the tri-car.
(Cont.)
SB

What a awesome tank,Good job Dan.

Just to let you know I don't have a bigger sprocket,but do have chain?

Are the bed tubes plated brass or solid brass,put a magnet on them and find out. Real brass bed is a good find........."Curt

 

[silverbear]

Tinsmith,

The copper tool box is perfect... the best things about that build I have you and Steve to credit. Thank you, Dan.

I did not mean to put you in an awkward position regarding the business about your tools maybe going to scrap someday. I simply wanted to comment that the knowledge and skills of traditional trades are disappearing as this generation of tin and copper smiths put down their tools in retirement. There are no apprentices to pick them up and carry it on. It is something we talked about in your shop. I wasn't trying to generate sympathy for you as if you're just dying to get out there to make another fifty candle boxes. People do appreciate and recognize your work, so that's a good thing. It is a kind of respect for the tradition you and other tradesmen have carried forward. It has been said that we stand on the shoulders of those who came before us, and that is especially true I think among artisans. .And yes, for those of us who appreciate such things it is to be lamented that a younger generation is not there to tend the fire. But it is what it is.
SB

 

[Tinsmith]

Thanks SB. No problem here. At this point in life most of my waking hours are spent in and awkward position. I appreciate the fact that folks place value in something made using hand tools for the most part. It is unfortunate that a person can't make a good living doing this type of work, but I feel lucky that I did for a good long time. There are a few of us left, most older than me, and I have met a few fellas who do it as a hobby to make some extra spending money.

The tools won't be scrapped by me, but if I don't find a place for them before I'm gone they will go for scrap metal prices at auction. I see it all the time. I've enjoyed showing you some of how things were done using the old tools and machines from 100 years ago. Thanks to all those on the forum for your interest. If this motorbike thing would have crossed my path 30 years ago I can only imagine where it might have led, but there are such skilled and talented folks here that I try to check it out every day to see the great work that is done all over the world. This forum is the best!!!

Dan

 

[silverbear]

Curt,
Stick some of that chain aside if you will for the delta hybrid trike. Thanks for looking for a bigger differential sprocket. I'll make do with what I have and if need be can change gearing with the drive sprocket coming off the jack shaft.

Regarding the brass bed parts... I'll check with a magnet when the rain lets up. I paid ten bucks for the brass head board in nice shape having no idea what I would use it for, but brass is brass after all so I bought it. The three pieces I've set aside for the foot rest will work well, I think. I'll need to find some flat brass stock to make the rest of the foot rest so will be on the lookout for an inexpensive source. Don't see much brass at the dump... not much copper either anymore.

Time to put the tri-car away for the winter soon before snow comes. It is always a little sad putting the projects away until spring time, but there are "mini" projects which can be worked on such as converting the Harbor Freight off road lights over into 6 volt LED headlights for the tri-car. I also want to work on the front wheel fender struts or whatever you call them using the 1/2" conduit bender you gave me. I want to make curved fender supports like the originals on the Hiawatha. That will take some experimenting to make ones that look like the originals yet will mount onto the tri-car axles, accommodating the disc brake calipers which are kind of in the way. Gotta have the right fenders! Then have to find one more of the Hiawatha Indian head fender ornaments so each front wheel has one... woohoo! Need to make copper tail and brake lights with ruby stained glass jewel lenses... that's time consuming and a good indoor project for snow time. I've been wanting to do a how to tutorial on making the copper jewel lights (my single claim to fame on something I thunk up meself), so will do that this winter. Maybe someone else will want to make one, too. Between the dreaming and making of doo-dahs, figuring out gear ratios on the delta trike and how to electrify the rear wheel of the tri-car for engine starting purposes... winter will pass into spring and before I know it Motor Bicycle Summer Camp (for boys who never grew up) 2015 will be in session! Steve will unpack the wicker seat and springs for the tri-car and I'll do a show & tell of the stuff I've done and we'll be at it again making some sparks with the welder and promising to be done soon so we can take the tri-cars for a ride down Bear Head Road to the state park.

Yes, Dan, this forum is the best! What would I do without it? How would I ever have made great friends with you and Curt and Steve without this virtual meeting place? There would be no tri-car or delta projects for me to dream about. It is another kind of fire to keep an old fellow warm through the long cold dark. Gather around the fire boys and warm up those tired old hands. You, too, Annie. Let's talk about our projects...
SB

 

[cannonball2]

Hey SB.
My two sellers are out of stock on 24v rears. I have checked around elsewhere and the prices are close to double compared to the ebay market. Thing is most of the more common type kits regardless of where they are sold use the same components. So I will PM you when they start to show up again on the bay.

Also you have a choice of geared or direct drive in the mini motors. They are the small ones that looks like a drum brake.
Both have advantages and disadvantages, The DD has no wear parts save bearings. It does have parasitic drag, and if being powered by the IC motor will feed voltage back into the controller. This requires the controller to be left on so the charging is passed to the batteries, other wise the controllers capacitors take the charge and can be blown. Cool thing is its charging the battery, but its unregulated and on a long trip may affect the batteries. Im no expert here, this is what I read in the instructions that came with my Golden Motor.
The geared motor has a one way clutch and rolls with basically no resistance and no charging. The all up weight of the trike might be hard on the gears(or not). The other consideration is when starting you must let off the E throttle and let inertia start the ICE. The little motor in the geared unit has enough power to strip the gears when excessively loaded.
Things to consider. You have plenty of time to draw conclusions. Using the E motor for aux power and starting is a brilliant idea and should be easy enough to engineer in.