100:1 Mix

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by Retmachinist, Jul 24, 2009.

  1. Goat Herder

    Goat Herder Gutter Rider

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    Wow great for the input guys. There is some awesome amount of great here say here. My vote Towards Pablo & Dax. Keep us posted! Lovin this! Oh yeah guys its a family forum.
     
  2. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    Well tbh I had not the courage to try the 100:1 Amsoil (well, actually I couldn't find any heh), but I did switch to the Amsoil 50:1 flavor...

    Mine lil MB got a bit hot and bothered by it. At the recommended 50:1 ratio, after zipping about for a bit and bringing her home to check things, I shut her down and was serenaded by quite a LOT of metal contraction noises. I don't need a temp gauge to inform me that I had just abused my motor a bit. Usually after a ride I'll get a "ting" or too as she cools, this was a veritable symphony of complaint. However...

    While I was riding, I noticed she ran a lil smoother - not ignition mind you, that hadn't changed, but the high vibration had smoothed a bit and this was particularly noticeable at top speed. I said "hmmm o_O" So I drained the tank and mixed up a batch at the good ol 32:1 and sure nuff - she loved it. At max RPM she doesn't quite sound like she's about to explode in a shrapnel cloud of recycled beer cans, the piston head and plug base are no longer black and gooey, and it may be just the weather (planets lined up, equinox, third Tuesday of the month, w/e) but I seemed to have gained a solid 1.5 MPH.

    Yeah... I know... a WHOLE 1 mile per hour OMG w00t! :p Well, as fellow MBers I figure y'all understand how much even that means lol Actually, as a blowboater (sailboat fer u landlocked types) that has a normal top speed of a whopping 12mph or so - I'm used to this "fractional gain" game :D


    I know I have sinned, this was not about 100:1 oils... Yet I wanted to throw out a lil positive about the synthetic, particularly the Amsoil - as there has been some maligning of late. Despite not being able to run the advertised mix ratio, I'm still interested in trying out the 100:1 - even if I need run a heaver mix as not to slag my lil engine.

    I think I had a point somewheres around here...

    Oh RIGHT! Synthetics are definitely superior, I've used them in almost all my engines over the years, yet there is still no such a thing as a "mechanic in a bottle" and don't expect the seas to part or a burnin bush (unless you spilled fuel), listen to yer baby - she'll tell you what she wants ;)
     
    #162 BarelyAWake, Aug 27, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  3. xlite

    xlite New Member

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    It should be noted that less oil causes motors to run cooler not hotter. I've verified this on Rotax UL engines, HTs, and weedwacker friction bikes with IR thermometer. All the way down to zero oil which ran the coolest. The do blow w/o oil but not because of engine heat but rather localized seizure due to lack of lubrication.
     
  4. Pablo

    Pablo Master Bike Builder & Forum Sponsor

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    I was going to say, you were just getting on it more.
     
  5. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    Tom,
    You and I both tried the opti 2 on older engines. Mine was a dax with over a thousand miles on it and it improved in smoothness and power in just a couple of miles. I love it as the old motor has never run better. Why the difference in our experiences... yours worse and mine better? One obvious difference is that I had been using a synthetic since day one, Amsoil Sabre Professional. So maybe yours broke in differently than mine (or as someone suggested about synthetics, they never really break in at least in the traditional sense). I don't know, but if someone has been using a synthetic I doubt there will be any adverse effect from running opti 2 in an older engine. Just a guess. I am sold on the opti-2, quite a lot better than amsoil in my experience. I'm glad it worked out for you with the other two motors.
    Silverbear
     
  6. 2door

    2door Moderator
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    Silver B,
    You might be on to something here. I've used the Stihl oil almost exclusively prior to the Opti-2. The Stihl is, and don't quote me here, a semi-synthetic. It is supposed to be mixed @50:1 but I've always used it @32:1 instead. Maybe you're right. There is a difference in how these two engines, yours and mine, were broken in. I'm going to research the Stihl oil today if I get some time and see what it really is.
    The plot thickens.
    Tom

    Took a look at Stihl's website today and discovered that they have 3 types of 2 stroke oil. What I've been using, in the orange container is non-synthetic. The next level up is a semi-syn, and then they offer a full synthetic. Just thought I'd toss that in. STIHL Incorporated USA -- Products -- Oil and Lubricants -- Manufacturing the World's Number One Selling Brand of Chain Saws
    Tom
     
    #166 2door, Aug 27, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  7. Deadend

    Deadend New Member

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    Good read and a thorough write up !!! /clap


    From what you have described and what Opti-2 's website says their oil does.

    I'm almost tempted to do this :

    tank 1 (full) - Break in with mineral break in oil
    tank 2 ( 1/4th full ) - run vigorously with Opti-2 @ 100:1
    tank 3 and beyond - run regular syth @ 32:1 or higher mix (im 223lbs so a thicker mix with proper jetting is best for my fat rear end on 2smokes ) with occassionally running a 1/4th full tank with Opti-2


    From what i've read, Opti-2 used intermittently (in my mind) is more of a "poor man's cylinder re-surfacing" ( this is to say the way it has minor molecular shaping properties when in contact with heated metals ) then a daily running oil. That being said, I can see benefit in running it every 4th tank or so for a brief period to "let it do it's magic" on the cylinder walls and such.

    interesting discussion. dnut
     
    #167 Deadend, Aug 27, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  8. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    and yet... as I was deliberately testing the engine and its performance, I was VERY careful to run the exact same route, the same distance (about 5mi), the same fuel, and ofc at the same speed (WOT being about all she sees lol), and as all of this was on the same day - conditions weren't a factor...

    I took her out with the old oil and mix, ran the route to warm her up and check the plug. = norm
    I drained the fuel, mixed up a batch w/the new and filled her up - ran the route again. = HOT
    I drained the fuel, remixed w/more oil, filled her up - ran the route = norm

    I'd even be willing to admit it's all in my head, as the other effects may well have been - if the motor hadn't been so obviously hotter than normal. In addition to the "ting" of a cooling motor, a substantial amount of additional radiant heat could be felt, as well as some paint burn, a symptom I'm normally well past.

    So my question is then, what would have caused not only such an increase in temperature, but one with a repeatable effect, and one cured easily by reverting to my previous mix?


    I'm not denying your expertise, the very opposite actually - as now you have left me baffled o_O

    I'm totally willing to try it again too, just to eliminate my own doubt if no other.


    edit: again no offense, but I've now searched for anything to substantiate xlite's findings and I can't seem to find anything - could ya maybe point me in the right direction? I'll never get this past my technician friends elsewise ;)
    (They're Yamaha outboard techs, so not as familiar with straight air-cooling)
     
    #168 BarelyAWake, Aug 27, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2009
  9. xlite

    xlite New Member

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    I was also skeptical that less oil runs cooler when I ran across that in more than one of the Yahoo ultralight and engine forums. Personal experiments showed it was true. I suggest trying the popular 16:1 mix and then 100:1 with IR thermometer handy.

    Theory states that much of the cooling on these engines is not due to air flow but vaporization of gasoline. Oil does not contribute hence the less the better temperature wise. Lubrication is a separate issue.

    One of those rare cases where theory lines up with practical results.
     
    #169 xlite, Aug 28, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  10. Pablo

    Pablo Master Bike Builder & Forum Sponsor

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    Yes - in a nutshell, more oil leaner air/fuel mix. Temps goes higher.

    The key is proper tuning. It's a balance with oil-fuel-air.
     
  11. restapukin

    restapukin New Member

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    i read your recent input with great interest 2door & others who've given great detail to chew over. I'm still chewing.

    Eventually managed to track down the Aus Opti-2 distributor - they gave me the local retailer - turns out to be the major this-side-of-town Stihl outlet.

    Intend to mosey down later on and see if there's any word of mouth as i buy some of this opti-2 stuff, any hesitation has gone to the wind. I'll make sure to post my results here for the record, one way or the other, for what they are worth.
     
  12. ku4qb

    ku4qb New Member

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    Well, after following this thread from the beginning, I grabbed a bottle of Opti-2 off the shelf at the local mower shop. When I got it home, I looked closer and it says "Injector Lube". Not much info on the label. It says use it straight in oil injected engines, and for pre-mix use manufacturers instructions. The website is not really very informative and I couldn't find anything about 100:1, even for the regular stuff...
    Guess I'll mix it 16:1 to start with. My engine is still new (got to find time to finish making my hub adaptor) so it will be getting the Opti from the very beginning. I'll let you know how it worked out, eventually, just not sure if this version works the same as the Opti-2 discussed here.
    On a different and maybe crazy note, has anyone tried model airplane fuel in one of these engines? I have a couple of gallons of 15%nitro I got free and have no other use for. Maybe I'll try it in my Kinetic, no loss if that thing blows up. ;-}
    Cheers! Bill KU4QB
     
  13. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    Bill,
    I don't know if that is the same stuff. My container says Opti-2 Smokeless E-GD+ Enviro Formulas
    "One mix for all 2-cycle engines. Contents (12 Fl. OZ) mixes 10 gallons". My container doesn't say anything about oil injected engines. It doesn't sound like what you have. Might be a good idea to give your mower guy a call before mixing any up.
    Silverbear
     
  14. restapukin

    restapukin New Member

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    Ok, I've bin done gone and bought me a bottle of Opti-2; the aus deal is $27au for 1 litre - somewhere around a yankee dollar tarrif of say $20us for about 33 ounces. Nice two chamber measuring bottle.

    Product description - simply 'Opti-2 2-cycle engine lubricant' -nowhere does the bottle labelling say "100:1" ...ROFLMAO

    The promoters must think that we aussies are not quite ready to confront the awful maths implicit in the instructions that "the proper mix is 1.3 ounces per 1 US gallon or 4 litres of fuel"

    Thats 100:1 alright ....and 100:1 is the strength that I have mixed myself... so i'm off out ... (the stuff seems pretty average viscosity vs the ordinary 2-stroke oil in the mix that I've been using; for the record I've used 5 litres of fuel mix in the engine since new ... mixed at 16:1 for the first litre, 20:1 for the next three litres and 32:1 for the final litre so far burned in my engine.)
     
  15. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    We'll await your report. Don't keep us in suspenders for too long...
    Silverbear
     
  16. restapukin

    restapukin New Member

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    yeah - I meant to post that last post when i wrote it, this afternoon, several hours ago.

    I only got in a half-hour bike-path dash... an old friend called by and that was the rest of the day gone.

    So initial impressions only at this stage... i'll keep it brief... and I will be using the term <rich> to describe fuel/air affairs only AND NOT gasoline/oil ratios

    (With previous ordinary oil my engine did not seem to like 16:1 or 25:1 run-in mixes much, but was noticeably sweeter at 32:1 in that the burn/performance with a 32:1 mix seemed crisper and cleaner.)

    So

    The 100:1 opti-2 seems to run very similarly (well) in all-round performance & perhaps slightly better at low revs... my mixture has been showing perfect plug colour ... maybe just a little too perfect, ie the clean colour made me nervous that a tad richer on the mixture might be safer in the long run ... so the slightly smoother low-rpm torque feel that i got as an initial impression may well be a result of the slight mixture richening that a 100:1 oil ratio gives.

    And the exhaust smells pretty good with incense/pharmaceutical notes and none of the old blue smoke, more of a slight mist that disperses to transparency very easily.

    Seems great so far but but i can't recommend the stuff on the basis of a mere half hour run of course.
    But I will be continuing the trial @100:1, there are simply no signs or symptoms to make me want to back out at this stage. Good so far.
     
  17. 2door

    2door Moderator
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    Don't use what you have...It's not the Opti-2 we're talking about. Return it to where you bought it and get Opti-2, 2 cycle lubricant. Check the photo below. That's what you want. Hope I caught you in time.
    Tom
     

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    #177 2door, Aug 30, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  18. MikeJ

    MikeJ New Member

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    What a long thread! Good reading! I know all I need to know about Opti-2-anything because I have yet to be able to find it in this town. It is good stuff, I'm sure. Especially for little forced-air cooled engines.

    Now, for alternative oils that I can find, I go to the local Honda motorcycle & 2-cycle race bike store. I figure if they sell oil for 250 cc competition motocross bikes, the oil they sell will probably work in my little putt-putt machine.

    For the first time, I did try fully synthetic some-brand at 50:1. And for the first time today, I managed to break 33 mph at wide open throttle (tachometer says 4800 rpm) on the flats. This is up from my previous record of 28 mph, same conditions, using 24:1 non-synthetic two-stroke oil. The engine is now in the 375-mile age range. With a jackshaft kit from Sick Bike Parts, it is a rather comfortable riding machine. It has a lot of pulling torque in the low gears.

    I figure engine life is a function of how much wide open throttle is used, not just oil ratios. I should back down to 25 mph for long rides, but 30 mph is much more fun.

    Thanks for the Opti-2 info! Maybe in another thread we can hash over the cost of lube oil per tankful of gas. The 50:1 is just over $1.

    MikeJ
     
  19. Junster

    Junster New Member

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    Mine should be here tomarrow. I'll be posting results too. I have about 1600 miles on my motor now still strong with good compression. For those having a hard time finding opti-2 I ordered mine off ebay. 10gal mix bottle for 13.95 w/free shipping. I have since found a 100 gal mix bottle on ebay for 56.95 with the shipping it comes to just under 70. A life time supply basically. I also picked up a mix miser hypo style oil measuring thingy. With the small amount of oil in the mix I'd imagine accuracy is a good thing.
     
  20. bseelbach

    bseelbach New Member

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    With all of the hype I switched to Opti 2 over the weekend but found something interesting today on the mix ratio when I picked up a small pouch of Opi-2.

    I have the 12oz bottle which mixes 10 gal of gas. There are no ratio mixing instructions only hash marks on the side of the bottle for number of gallons. So 12 oz bottle for 10 gallon = 1.2 oz/gal= 106:1 ratio.

    Today I picked up a couple of small pouches of Opti to keep in my bag in case I get stranded and need to fill up on the road. They had pouches for both 1 gallon mix and 2 gallon mix. I expected the pouch to be 1.3 oz for the 1 gallon mix but it was actually 1.8 ounces. This means the mix will be 71.1:1 using 1 gal of gas. The instructions state for 1 gallon of gas or 5 liters. Obviously they are not the same gas volume and will not yield the same mix ratio but I'm sure that Opti did this for ease of distribution.

    There have been several people including myself that are running Opti-2 at 100:1 but for the skeptics, we could deduct from the instructions on the pouch that there should be no adverse reactions to running it at 70:1.

    I'll probably go to 70 or 80:1 after this gallon and see if I notice anything negative.
    For anyone in Michigan, Weingartz carries Opti-2. 1.8oz $1.69 12 oz bottle 6.99 and 32 oz $16.99.
     

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