Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike
- Thread starter indian22
- Start date
Just don't call me late for dinner. 
Epithets I have many.
Pete
Epithets I have many.
Pete
Tom a quick update on the Meilan GPS & it's battery capacity. I rode 4 hours yesterday on one charge that I'd already depleted for an hour or so on Saturday. From this I'd say at least five hours can be anticipated on a charge (It still had the yellow light on) and I can live with this. On really long rides I can just plug in to my lithium pack as I ride and not worry about losing data along the way, and lets face it; of the minimal metrics provided real time mph is of more interest to me than the other data & I don't really have to use the GPS continually as pedal cadence becomes an intuitive guide to actual speeds in all gears while riding varying environmental/topographical conditions.
I'm feeling the mini-gps is quite a value in both expenditure and usefulness.
Rick C.
I'm feeling the mini-gps is quite a value in both expenditure and usefulness.
Rick C.
Thanks for the up-date Rick, I still haven't taken a ride. But four hour duration seems more than reasonable.
So if you can additionally plug in and play, I like it!
Tom
So if you can additionally plug in and play, I like it!
Tom
Tom I'm including photos of the plugs used to connect the mini- GPS to my lithium pack...all plug in connections. The battery converter plug is available in different configurations, but the output will hook up to and power/charge cell phones, lights etc. 5.5v. devices. Though this battery plug is for a large 36v. or 48v. lithium pack to drive a bike motor, small bike light power packs could be used as well, though some simple wiring would be required.
I have plug lengths of 2 ft., 4 ft. & 6 ft. for my devices ranging from drone to Gps. All common, inexpensive & factory wired cables.
Hope this might help with charge or re-charge problems with small electronic devices, on the fly while riding gas or electric bikes.
Rick C.
I have plug lengths of 2 ft., 4 ft. & 6 ft. for my devices ranging from drone to Gps. All common, inexpensive & factory wired cables.
Hope this might help with charge or re-charge problems with small electronic devices, on the fly while riding gas or electric bikes.
Rick C.
110 degrees yesterday, so I brought the e-V twin back inside to work under air conditioning. Pulled the chains & adjusted the bottom bracket axle slightly to the left, the motor case as well...then, well it's a process right? Rear brake cables need to be trimmed also and so it goes.
I'm sticking with the 48v. 2k motor and smaller controller at this time. As it's setup the continuous output is 2880 watts or 3.8hp, and 6.38hp at peak which I've held for about 30 seconds without burning anything out. In daily riding I'd say a bump to peak for 15 or 20 seconds or so durations would be a reasonable expectation if the motor has a period of cool off while only drawing average amperage after these power bursts.
The motor and controller both warm to the touch after extended peak power use, but going W.O.T. for 5 to 10 seconds isn't hardly noticeable to the touch.
Why not the 72v. motor setup? Several reasons a big one is getting enough amp hours inside the battery tank to power the big bike very far, say 30 miles. Another consideration is that bicycle rollingstock isn't adequate for the bikes weight during extended periods of high speed cruising. The 72v. setup is capable of peak output of 10 to 13hp. I already have two gas bikes that produce power in this range and I don't use a quarter of that on any ride. It's there if I need it...but I've never needed it.
I don't see me using the 72v. setup on this build, but it was fun testing the bike with this setup. I'll save the motor and controller for an actual D.O.T rated build, which may or may not ever take place. The 72v. battery was returned to the builder in exchange for two 48v. 20 amp hour battery packs, which was pre arranged prior to receiving the 72v. There was no way to fit the big battery in the fake tank so I rigged a bag to strap it over the tank. ugly and off balance too but it allowed testing. I'd say a tank 2 inches wider would be required for this packs use. Pat built a bike which used a 72v. battery and it fit in this tank...so it can be done with 18650 cells...high amp batteries to extend the range.
I find the 48v. in 20 amp hour or more configurations are a practical lithium pack for my requirements of daily riding. For bragging rights the 72v.
I've also a lot of case changes to make as well, all cosmetic, in addition to adding fuel and oil lines, magneto case, spark leads etc. for now I'm shooting for flawless performance.
Notice the head badge proudly displayed is Sportsman Flyer!
Rick C.
I'm sticking with the 48v. 2k motor and smaller controller at this time. As it's setup the continuous output is 2880 watts or 3.8hp, and 6.38hp at peak which I've held for about 30 seconds without burning anything out. In daily riding I'd say a bump to peak for 15 or 20 seconds or so durations would be a reasonable expectation if the motor has a period of cool off while only drawing average amperage after these power bursts.
The motor and controller both warm to the touch after extended peak power use, but going W.O.T. for 5 to 10 seconds isn't hardly noticeable to the touch.
Why not the 72v. motor setup? Several reasons a big one is getting enough amp hours inside the battery tank to power the big bike very far, say 30 miles. Another consideration is that bicycle rollingstock isn't adequate for the bikes weight during extended periods of high speed cruising. The 72v. setup is capable of peak output of 10 to 13hp. I already have two gas bikes that produce power in this range and I don't use a quarter of that on any ride. It's there if I need it...but I've never needed it.
I don't see me using the 72v. setup on this build, but it was fun testing the bike with this setup. I'll save the motor and controller for an actual D.O.T rated build, which may or may not ever take place. The 72v. battery was returned to the builder in exchange for two 48v. 20 amp hour battery packs, which was pre arranged prior to receiving the 72v. There was no way to fit the big battery in the fake tank so I rigged a bag to strap it over the tank. ugly and off balance too but it allowed testing. I'd say a tank 2 inches wider would be required for this packs use. Pat built a bike which used a 72v. battery and it fit in this tank...so it can be done with 18650 cells...high amp batteries to extend the range.
I find the 48v. in 20 amp hour or more configurations are a practical lithium pack for my requirements of daily riding. For bragging rights the 72v.
I've also a lot of case changes to make as well, all cosmetic, in addition to adding fuel and oil lines, magneto case, spark leads etc. for now I'm shooting for flawless performance.
Notice the head badge proudly displayed is Sportsman Flyer!
Rick C.
Still looks so darned real I expect it to start and run.
Steve.
Steve.
Yes it does like it.........Curt
I listened to a radio program about electric bikes. They mentioned that the motor in the bottom bracket (The Crank), makes it possible to have the electric motor utilize to derailleur gears if they are on the bike. Also mentioned are in a particular motor/controller setup were 4 levels of pedal assist. I can sort of think it like 80%, 60%, 40%, and 20% assist. 100% my thought means you don't pedal and it goes on its own.
If I remember what I said is correct a few questions. The assist could mean you pedal and for the same speed/weight/incline etc. you have it easier to pedal.
A question, I was wondering if has ever been implemented, could you end up going the same speed with assist on as log as you pedal the same speed in the same gear with the same speed/weight/incline etc.? The only difference being you have less resistance to having to pedal?
How the pedal assist adds (sums) the two power sources I figure are done mechanically? Electrically I could imagine too much loss where a generator attached to the pedals and summed power in a controller from a storage battery to an electric motor?
MT
Forgot about the throttle, I was thinking it too would be part of that speed/weight/ incline etc. being the same to have pedaling exertion being diminished by the 80%, 60%, 40%, and 20%.
If I remember what I said is correct a few questions. The assist could mean you pedal and for the same speed/weight/incline etc. you have it easier to pedal.
A question, I was wondering if has ever been implemented, could you end up going the same speed with assist on as log as you pedal the same speed in the same gear with the same speed/weight/incline etc.? The only difference being you have less resistance to having to pedal?
How the pedal assist adds (sums) the two power sources I figure are done mechanically? Electrically I could imagine too much loss where a generator attached to the pedals and summed power in a controller from a storage battery to an electric motor?
MT
Forgot about the throttle, I was thinking it too would be part of that speed/weight/ incline etc. being the same to have pedaling exertion being diminished by the 80%, 60%, 40%, and 20%.
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With that 110 F temp, maybe lining the inside of the cylinders with solid state thermo-cooling with Peltier flexible pads. Thus the cooling from the attached points at the crankcase faux, has cooling effect on the electric motor inside. The hub in back I suspect is just a drum brake. This morning it was down to 67 degrees inside. It is supposed to get hot here, but I see the Moon at night with a red tinge to it all week. The fires going on if with light colored particulates reflect the heat of the Sun. Dark particulates absorb and radiate down to Earth in the night time. I hope there are still some OHV riding areas left to ride, one was a Bureau of Land Management area I was looking to go to and now two highways are closed on the way to it. I even think the area is part of the Lightning Fires. Have a thought of canceling my OHV insurance again. Prior spot I went was burned a few years ago so I found the new spot, but never got to see and try it yet.
Good one MT,
The solid state thermo-cooling with Peltier devices. If Rick had chose to fabricate the whole engine structure of aluminum the sum would make a heat sink to ambient temps. The Peltier effect devises surely would be an asset but the Hot side would still require heat sinks of their own. Oklahoma and the rest of the South West would be a challenging environment.
With a ICE multivis lube is helpful. My flyer and Kaw VTwin mower engine just got 15-50 to protect wear surfaces.
Tom
The solid state thermo-cooling with Peltier devices. If Rick had chose to fabricate the whole engine structure of aluminum the sum would make a heat sink to ambient temps. The Peltier effect devises surely would be an asset but the Hot side would still require heat sinks of their own. Oklahoma and the rest of the South West would be a challenging environment.
With a ICE multivis lube is helpful. My flyer and Kaw VTwin mower engine just got 15-50 to protect wear surfaces.
Tom
How right y
As to my concern with looks: I have a mix of aluminum and steel on my housing and an all aluminum case would and does look good. It's just a different look. Artful use of paint patina could be an outstanding look or for those that like lots of polish aluminum would be an excellent choice. However I still selected steel as the primary case material with head and side plates made of aluminum bolted to the steel case. Just for looks.
If one were to commercially , large scale, produce full size v-twin motor cases I'd say they would be forced to use a combination of aluminum and resins as their primary case materials with brass and steel accents. It just makes better sense both tech and business wise.
Pat's choice to use aluminum in his V-twin electric case was an excellent judgement on his part and he's nailed it with his bikes. They look great in aluminum and the design is easy enough to replicate for moderate size customer demand.
My case is a one off and I've taken quite a bit of time to get to the point of testing, a lot of what I'm now working on deals with the aesthetics of the mounted case. Mostly magneto, side plates and carb plus realistic hookups. Though most of the motor case style is based on the Harley F engine, "banjo type" mag drive, I've taken element concepts from several manufacturers inlet over exhaust motors and incorporated them into my case. The integral case jack shaft, however, is way out there & not representative of any engine of the era. The bottom bracket reduction drive would be the correct choice as a transmission for the period. This isn't meant to be a Harley replica case, though I've repeatedly referred to it as my Harley style case in previous posts as a descriptive term. My case is a tribute to the general type of the early period V-twins. So I took a lot of latitude in it's styling and in fact tried to avoid specific replication.
Rick C.
How right you are Tom! I struggled initially with my choice of materials, steel or aluminum, I choose steel primarily for aesthetics. Cooling hasn't been a problem, but my testing has taken place in morning temps typically in the eighties. One hundred degree tests on extended runs haven't taken place to date. There are three separate fake housings on the e-V-Twin that require monitoring with real time sensors and with external and internal stress readouts that I've not yet employed. The motor, controller and the battery are all contained in metal housings. Of the three the motor has a huge amount of airflow once under way as the bottom, crankcase, is open to airflow and the motor itself is vented out the side plates. The other two cases are very air flow restricted in comparison. Still aluminum would have technically been more efficient acting as a heat sink. On top of this the housing weight would be cut in half.
As to my concern with looks: I have a mix of aluminum and steel on my housing and an all aluminum case would and does look good. It's just a different look. Artful use of paint patina could be an outstanding look or for those that like lots of polish aluminum would be an excellent choice. However I still selected steel as the primary case material with head and side plates made of aluminum bolted to the steel case. Just for looks.
If one were to commercially , large scale, produce full size v-twin motor cases I'd say they would be forced to use a combination of aluminum and resins as their primary case materials with brass and steel accents. It just makes better sense both tech and business wise.
Pat's choice to use aluminum in his V-twin electric case was an excellent judgement on his part and he's nailed it with his bikes. They look great in aluminum and the design is easy enough to replicate for moderate size customer demand.
My case is a one off and I've taken quite a bit of time to get to the point of testing, a lot of what I'm now working on deals with the aesthetics of the mounted case. Mostly magneto, side plates and carb plus realistic hookups. Though most of the motor case style is based on the Harley F engine, "banjo type" mag drive, I've taken element concepts from several manufacturers inlet over exhaust motors and incorporated them into my case. The integral case jack shaft, however, is way out there & not representative of any engine of the era. The bottom bracket reduction drive would be the correct choice as a transmission for the period. This isn't meant to be a Harley replica case, though I've repeatedly referred to it as my Harley style case in previous posts as a descriptive term. My case is a tribute to the general type of the early period V-twins. So I took a lot of latitude in it's styling and in fact tried to avoid specific replication.
Rick C.
Thanks Dan, Steve & Curtis. To me indoor photos aren't very inspiring so I've tried to hold them to a minimum, actually the bike gets torn down so often in testing and adjustment that certain covers and parts are missing so the bike often takes on a funky look that's not too appealing.
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MT you've some really good questions as regards the electric motor bottom bracket installs with shifting. If you go to Youtube and query Bafang electric motor installation, there are many excellent videos displayed with complete how to install step by step. To me the best way to understand is to see it done!
Pedal assist is controller dependent, but in general there are two types of sensors the torque sensor and the cadence sensor, both depend on the rider actually pedaling the bike without using an actual throttle (though a throttle control can over ride the pedal sensors if one chooses to set the controller up in this fashion) but for now I'm just speaking of pedal control. The difference in the two types of sensors is that cadence sensors read the number of turns/cycles/revolutions of the crank levers at the bottom bracket axle, the faster you turn the cranks the more motor assist output. Stop pedaling and the motor sleeps. This is the cheapest and most common sensor. Draw backs are several again Youtube tests are plentiful I'm certain. the torque sensor is a better option, but is still dependent on the rider actually putting power on through the pedals, the difference is the sensor is reading the actual torque applied to the pedals instead of simple pedal rotation to add motor power assist, which is really great at slow speeds when the crank is only turning a few strokes per minute when starting from a dead stop or climbing a steep hill. Both types give the rider a workout at the lowest power selection on the controller.
The motor controller allows the rider to select how much maximum motor power can be used at a given level often 4 or 5 levels are selectable. Level one may, for example, may allow the motor to only access 250 watts of no mater how fast or how hard the rider pedal. Each level higher selected ups the power accessible. On a 1000 watt motor this might look like 250 watts, 500 watts, 750 watts and 1,000 watts or 4 stages. Many controllers allow these changes to be made with a single press selection on the handlebars.
I go around the pedal sensors and simply use a twist throttle, but I also pedal at all times' though not required,...for the exercise and it's far more efficient as well. Range greatly increases with pedaling assist.
The answer is yes to your question.
Rick C.
Pedal assist is controller dependent, but in general there are two types of sensors the torque sensor and the cadence sensor, both depend on the rider actually pedaling the bike without using an actual throttle (though a throttle control can over ride the pedal sensors if one chooses to set the controller up in this fashion) but for now I'm just speaking of pedal control. The difference in the two types of sensors is that cadence sensors read the number of turns/cycles/revolutions of the crank levers at the bottom bracket axle, the faster you turn the cranks the more motor assist output. Stop pedaling and the motor sleeps. This is the cheapest and most common sensor. Draw backs are several again Youtube tests are plentiful I'm certain. the torque sensor is a better option, but is still dependent on the rider actually putting power on through the pedals, the difference is the sensor is reading the actual torque applied to the pedals instead of simple pedal rotation to add motor power assist, which is really great at slow speeds when the crank is only turning a few strokes per minute when starting from a dead stop or climbing a steep hill. Both types give the rider a workout at the lowest power selection on the controller.
The motor controller allows the rider to select how much maximum motor power can be used at a given level often 4 or 5 levels are selectable. Level one may, for example, may allow the motor to only access 250 watts of no mater how fast or how hard the rider pedal. Each level higher selected ups the power accessible. On a 1000 watt motor this might look like 250 watts, 500 watts, 750 watts and 1,000 watts or 4 stages. Many controllers allow these changes to be made with a single press selection on the handlebars.
I go around the pedal sensors and simply use a twist throttle, but I also pedal at all times' though not required,...for the exercise and it's far more efficient as well. Range greatly increases with pedaling assist.
The answer is yes to your question.
Rick C.
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I should have probably mentioned that I was more interested in the design and theory of electric bike motors and the associated controller and mechanics. The user manual and videos are good for everything short of that.
I checked Youtube and other sites on the web, but nothing comes up on other than setting up electric bikes and use of them.
That I am interested in, but wanted to know the guts inside and what makes them tick.
I looked up of reverse engineering only got one hit. The guy wanted to make the controller board do better by having linear use of pedal assist. Pulse Width Modulating between to levels of assist sounded interesting, though no replies to the thread and was 2 years ago posted. Hackers?
My understanding:
If there is a stalled car that brakes are off and put in neutral. Then two people of different strengths go to push the back of the car to roll it forward.
Say after a few steps the car is going too fast for the weaker person to keep up.
Or even if the weaker person can keep up the speed of the car and the stronger person pushing it, at some point it will be as the above sentence says above.
Now if the same scenario is where the two people stronger and weaker are on 10 speed bicycles and ropes tied to front bumper and pulling the car, the weaker person could use the gears to try to match the speed so that both people pulling could have the work force additive.
All of this boils down to speeds have to match from both to be additive.
In an assistive pedaling you mentioned of measuring torque and speed. I'd have to believe that the controller uses them both to match the speed of the electric motors assist to the pedaling of the person on the electric bike.
I've heard of meshing of two cone shape gears that are used to make and infinity variable transmission. A servo motor with feedback loop to know its position precisely all the time shifting upon the motor controller commands for pedal assist could be used.
The things I have heard of with pedal assist where someone is riding slow through a gate and stops and starts pedaling to use assist, a crash would be more prevalent due to a jerking motion from the initial pedal assist till it reaches some speed. Some localities and countries do not allow throttles to be used, so in that case it would be wise to shut off the electric motor and just pedal the bike yourself in tight quarters.
The controller and the design mechanism for the electric motors doing pedal assist and throttling could be improved I bet with the future.
Howstuffworks dot com, I looked at an there were only links to other sites, mostly being sales of electric bikes and usage. I have in the past found the intricacies of how things are designed and built while browsing Stuff there. Just not this topic.
So I'll leave it at that.
MT
I checked Youtube and other sites on the web, but nothing comes up on other than setting up electric bikes and use of them.
That I am interested in, but wanted to know the guts inside and what makes them tick.
I looked up of reverse engineering only got one hit. The guy wanted to make the controller board do better by having linear use of pedal assist. Pulse Width Modulating between to levels of assist sounded interesting, though no replies to the thread and was 2 years ago posted. Hackers?
My understanding:
If there is a stalled car that brakes are off and put in neutral. Then two people of different strengths go to push the back of the car to roll it forward.
Say after a few steps the car is going too fast for the weaker person to keep up.
Or even if the weaker person can keep up the speed of the car and the stronger person pushing it, at some point it will be as the above sentence says above.
Now if the same scenario is where the two people stronger and weaker are on 10 speed bicycles and ropes tied to front bumper and pulling the car, the weaker person could use the gears to try to match the speed so that both people pulling could have the work force additive.
All of this boils down to speeds have to match from both to be additive.
In an assistive pedaling you mentioned of measuring torque and speed. I'd have to believe that the controller uses them both to match the speed of the electric motors assist to the pedaling of the person on the electric bike.
I've heard of meshing of two cone shape gears that are used to make and infinity variable transmission. A servo motor with feedback loop to know its position precisely all the time shifting upon the motor controller commands for pedal assist could be used.
The things I have heard of with pedal assist where someone is riding slow through a gate and stops and starts pedaling to use assist, a crash would be more prevalent due to a jerking motion from the initial pedal assist till it reaches some speed. Some localities and countries do not allow throttles to be used, so in that case it would be wise to shut off the electric motor and just pedal the bike yourself in tight quarters.
The controller and the design mechanism for the electric motors doing pedal assist and throttling could be improved I bet with the future.
Howstuffworks dot com, I looked at an there were only links to other sites, mostly being sales of electric bikes and usage. I have in the past found the intricacies of how things are designed and built while browsing Stuff there. Just not this topic.
So I'll leave it at that.
MT
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MT your analogy of two bikes with 10 speeds pulling the car is a good one. The weaker rider using the gears to keep input of power.
The controller does "sense" both types of pedal input torque & cadence. The torque sensing type is of the variety that you mention with "abrupt engagement" this results in a sudden jerk that to novice riders can lead to mishaps. The cadence type pedal sensor engages slowly and smoothly however & is the most common type in use today. The drawback of the cadence sensor is its very slow acceleration at slow speeds, sometimes you need to get out of harms way. The cadence sensor operates off pedal speed not motor or bike speed. It translates through the controller to increase motor speed. I don't like either very much & yes I'd think improvements will be made in this area. Law or no law a throttle is my favorite solution, but the law is the law.
Widen your search on controllers to how to build or how to repair on You tube.
Rick C.
Rick C.
Glad to hear SB is well...I noticed he hadn't posted on the forum for a spell.
Great update on Silver bear & can't wait to see him both posting and building again. He's such an inspiration!
Rick C.
Silverbear and I have both had health issues and then by absolute chance he met a woman he had as a next door summer cottage neighbour when he was boy before his parents sold the cottage. He had gotten into a boyhood interest in sailing canoes then when he and Sue met again its become both their interests in the outdoors combined to tour the lakes in the Boundary Waters around the town they live in in Minnesota near her parent cottage that she and her brother still own.
They bought one house in Ely and then said that if the house across the street was for sale they would rather have bought that one instead. The next trip up from Wisconsin where Sue lived the house was up for sale so they bought that one as well and moved into it and sold the house across the street and sold Sue's house as well.
With all the buying and selling, moving, house renovations and spending time on the lakes, bikes have taken a back seat for the old fella but he is getting ready to use the original 1932 garage that was built for the house as a workshop and he hopes to get back at bikes and canoe polishing over the winter.
Since I live 20 minutes from the U.S.-Canadian we hear through the network of friends about the border opening and closings and time lengths. It is going to depend on how the Corona Virus and could be closed to personal traffic for a year or more. Essential traffic such as shipping still passes through and people travelling to and from Alaska but they must stay on certain highways to and from the lower 48 and Alaska or face very heavy fines for not doing so. No touring Canada on the way.
That is the latest. I do hear from Silverbear on occasion and I'll send this to him and see if he has time to reply. I miss his comments as well.
Steve.
They bought one house in Ely and then said that if the house across the street was for sale they would rather have bought that one instead. The next trip up from Wisconsin where Sue lived the house was up for sale so they bought that one as well and moved into it and sold the house across the street and sold Sue's house as well.
With all the buying and selling, moving, house renovations and spending time on the lakes, bikes have taken a back seat for the old fella but he is getting ready to use the original 1932 garage that was built for the house as a workshop and he hopes to get back at bikes and canoe polishing over the winter.
Since I live 20 minutes from the U.S.-Canadian we hear through the network of friends about the border opening and closings and time lengths. It is going to depend on how the Corona Virus and could be closed to personal traffic for a year or more. Essential traffic such as shipping still passes through and people travelling to and from Alaska but they must stay on certain highways to and from the lower 48 and Alaska or face very heavy fines for not doing so. No touring Canada on the way.
That is the latest. I do hear from Silverbear on occasion and I'll send this to him and see if he has time to reply. I miss his comments as well.
Steve.