Pulled Over in Grant Florida

[rustycase]

Aw shucks!
That's politics, and I gotta get involved in politics!

DUI is a simple violation of contract. No biggie. straight forward.
BAC above this, or that, the consequences they shall impose are written in the books.
...somebody was either too happy, or too sad, made poor judgement and consumed too much before piloting the vehicle.

An unlicensed means of personal transport threatens the entire system!
There's something useful out there that is not subject to tax???
How can that be!
There oughta be a law!!!

rc

 

[RonB]

Well going to court today again" I recently wrote a letter to the head of the clerk of courts about this case not progressing for the last 8 months and below is a copy of what they returned >
Ken Burke, Clerk of Court for Pinellas County has asked that I respond to your email. I am the General Counsel for the Clerk's office.

I am truly sorry that unfortunately the Clerk's office cannot assist with your request. Only the office of the State Attorney has the authority under the law to make the determination as to whether a case that has been filed could be dismissed and it is only the Court who has the authority to calendar the case. The Clerk's office does not have such authority. As the case is now scheduled for Jan.10, 2013, that may well be the earliest that that it could be calendared.

I am very sorry that we could not assist you. Good luck to you in this matter.
So all of a sudden i get this email from my attorney> You are not going to like what I've got to say one bit.
>
> I talked to the new state attorney on the case, whom I know. Essentially we
> want a test case to decide the status of these gas-powered bikes under the
> law. You are a bad candidate for that because you have the two priors.
>
> The state attorney yesterday says the judge has made somewhat of a pet cause
> out of these gas-powered bikes, and he is convinced they are in fact motor
> vehicles which require a license. If I go up and argue the statutes and we
> lose (which the state attorney thinks is highly likely, because the judge
> has ruled on this before) you are likely to go to jail.
>
> The offer is a $500 fine and that will take care of the issue.
>
> You can call me in the morning (after 8) if you want to talk more about
> this. so i intend to ask for a jury trial anyway! yea so i have two priors of no valid dl" I pleaded those cases and paid for them" so if i get stopped will operating a mobility scooter will i get charged again? where does it stop? I will let you all know what transpires when i get back later"

 

[rustycase]

Congratulations on your opportunity for education!
Quite an experience, isn't it?

IMO, you have proceeded incorrectly, in asking to accelerate your case.
What I would have advised is that you have your lawyer submit a motion for dismissal for lack of a speedy trial. Yet that would not have been considered if you had waived time, at your pre-trial.

Also, IMO, it is not wise to ask for a jury trial, because now you must make an emotional appeal to them when they decide the case. This is because a jury does not know the law. The judge will instruct the jury what law applies to the matter before them.

And, you may not be able to appeal a decision made by a jury, in your state.

IF, you had asked for a court trial, before a judge, you could have appealed the decision on basis of law.

Apparently there is some reason for your lawyer to submit a motion to have the judge in your case recuse himself, because he apparently has an axe to grind and will possibly be predjudical in the matter. But since you have engaged a lawyer, he should know that...

In my state, it is not possible to have a jury trial for an infraction... unless they have charged you with a misdemeanor, which is indeed punishable by internment.

Yet the matter is not criminal, IMO, but a contractual dispute, and not a criminal event where persons or property are damaged, and under our law, internment should not be applied as punishment for debt.

...Which the matter before the court is... an agency is making a claim that you have exercised privilege, did not first pay license fees, and fall under their jurisdiction.

Your lawyer should dispute every bit of that, and insist upon your right to travel while upon personal and private business.

All this will dawn upon you as they squash you like a bug in the street with the immense power they wield, to our detriment.

Most likely, your only hope for justice is in an appeal.

Best
rc

 

[UVsaturated]

He did not give me a ticket, just told me to stay under 20mph. Now is that stupid or what? The way I see it, if I'm pedaling its a bicycle, if I'm using my motor, its a motorized bike. I guess they dont see it that way.

I would say that part is a lot of BS. If you are pedaling a bike, theoretically you can go as fast as the posted speed limit. If you can pedal 25mph on an average bicycle, I will buy you a Twinkie.

 

[rustycase]

is there a twinkie clone on the market yet?

...gotta be, right?

 

[d_gizzle]

Hey uv,come on down,I will take the 25mph challenge! Just need to know what's an average bicycle?

I normaly ride a 20" bmx with a 52T chainring/16T sprocket setup but its whatever.

And if its multi-speed don't waste your time,that's not a challenge.

 

[Dave31]

If you can pedal 25mph on an average bicycle, I will buy you a Twinkie.

I'll be at MHC Jan 20th the entire day with all my bikes, bring plenty of Twinkies

 

[GasX]

25mph is easily attainable just not sustainable...

 

[RonB]

Congratulations on your opportunity for education!
Quite an experience, isn't it?

IMO, you have proceeded incorrectly, in asking to accelerate your case.
What I would have advised is that you have your lawyer submit a motion for dismissal for lack of a speedy trial. Yet that would not have been considered if you had waived time, at your pre-trial.

Also, IMO, it is not wise to ask for a jury trial, because now you must make an emotional appeal to them when they decide the case. This is because a jury does not know the law. The judge will instruct the jury what law applies to the matter before them.

And, you may not be able to appeal a decision made by a jury, in your state.

IF, you had asked for a court trial, before a judge, you could have appealed the decision on basis of law.

Apparently there is some reason for your lawyer to submit a motion to have the judge in your case recuse himself, because he apparently has an axe to grind and will possibly be predjudical in the matter. But since you have engaged a lawyer, he should know that...

In my state, it is not possible to have a jury trial for an infraction... unless they have charged you with a misdemeanor, which is indeed punishable by internment.

Yet the matter is not criminal, IMO, but a contractual dispute, and not a criminal event where persons or property are damaged, and under our law, internment should not be applied as punishment for debt.

...Which the matter before the court is... an agency is making a claim that you have exercised privilege, did not first pay license fees, and fall under their jurisdiction.

Your lawyer should dispute every bit of that, and insist upon your right to travel while upon personal and private business.

All this will dawn upon you as they squash you like a bug in the street with the immense power they wield, to our detriment.

Most likely, your only hope for justice is in an appeal.

Best
rc

way back in this thread i believe I stated We appealed the judges decision to a pre- trial conference, that`s when all the continuances started(case was repeatedly pushed aside) IMO that means we have yet to have that pre- trial conference? I don`t believe there is a jury in this country that would convict someone that did not break any laws! A motorized bike is NOT a motor vehicle in this state according to statute 316" and bye the way" In Florida d/without a license can carry a jail sentence? so i`am off to court now! later Imo"

 

[RonB]

Finally!! case is going forward to a 6 person jury trial! funny it only took 15 seconds in front of the podium this trip? Anyway it will likely be 90 days until trial but i will not leave you guys hanging!

 

[rustycase]

This popped up on the Yahoo News, this morning, if you have not seen it...
Apparently the FL municipalities are getting pretty aggressive in their tax grabs and *someone* disagreed with them...

Here's a link and clip.


http://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-says-floating-home-not-vessel-154307160--finance.html

Credit due for the clip from Reuters

In a 7-2 decision, the court ruled that a gray, two-story home that its owner said was permanently moored to a Riviera Beach, Florida, marina was not a vessel, depriving the city of power under U.S. maritime law to seize and destroy it.
Justice Stephen Breyer said nothing about former Chicago trader and Marine pilot Fane Lozman's home that would have led a "reasonable observer" to conclude it could be used to transport people or things over water, but for the fact that it floated.
"Not every floating structure is a 'vessel'," Breyer wrote for the majority. "To state the obvious, a wooden washtub, a plastic dishpan, a swimming platform on pontoons, a large fishing net, a door taken off its hinges, or Pinocchio (when inside the whale) are not 'vessels'."
<end of clip>

IMO...

If you are not licensed to drive, and not hauling persons, or property, for hire, upon the public roadways, there's not any legitimate tax grabs that are applicable to you legitimately.

And just because your bicycle is carrying a motor around, for an assist, from time to time, does not make it a motor vehicle.

I tell people what I have is a loud bicycle!

Baically, if the municipal court renders a decision you are unhappy with, appeal that decision to a higher court. There's a LOT of interesting things to learn about when you proceed further with a case! Fascinating stuff!

Good luck
rc

 

[RonB]

I cannot help but think i should have made it clearer that if i was sited for having the bike on the side walk and not for operating a motor vehicle without a DL, i would have been stuck with that fine and would not be able to appeal because it does not carry a jail sentence,only the No dL charge has allowed me to carry this appeal out! My attorney claims it is illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk' I asked him if he would tell his kids to ride in the street and he said no" also he said that motorized bikes must not be faster than 20 mph' and all this time i thought it was 30???

 

[george_n_texas]

You'd think they had bigger fish to fry than this in Florida (pardon the pun). You might try copying a bunch of posts from this site from folks in Florida that have been pulled over and not ticketed and ask why. IMO it sets precidence and makes em look plenty stupid to contradict what has already been in practice...also there are manufacturers of MB in Fla. Here is a vendor I am sure would love to give you advise / help http://www.motorizedfoldupbikes.com/

Here's a thread that Salty Gator said he'd been pulled over with NP from the law http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=11379

This guy got a ticket for not having lights nothing about being motorized http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?p=128660#post128660

 

[george_n_texas]

This is from an add in Austin Texas: http://www.litefootbikes.com/ motorized bicycles and scooters are specifically designed to provide fast, comfortable, and safe transportation along short distances. Unlike cars, motorcycles, and other heavy-duty vehicles, our motorized bicycles do not require a license, title, registration, or insurance. Anyone can ride them.

 

[rustycase]

Well, there's a couple things going on there, Ron.

1st is the lawyer.

A member of the bar is an officer of the court, and beholden to them.
YOUR best interest is not HIS.

He is bound to uphold any law that comes down the pike.

We the People have every right to protest any little thing they do which we may not like, for ANY reason.

20mph...blah blah blah... that's ridiculous!
There's a lot of folks around here, in my part of sunny Kalifornia who can easily exceed that, and do so, on a regular basis, and for long stretches!
Yet they are not unsafe, when doing so...
THAT might be a problem, for concern.
No one should do things that are hazardous and possibly endanger others.

Travelling, is not of itself, dangerous.
And a bicycle certainly is not! lol

On a sidewalk, with lots of pedestrians... well, that's not a good idea...
On a vacant sidewalk, at a slow speed? Well, why not?
As long as there are not doors opening and people walking out, there should be no cause for alarm.
Or action by enforcement personnel.

As you get deeper into this matter you will learn all kinds of interesting things... like, The Law doesn't deal with trivial matters.
The Law isn't petty, or superficial.
It doesn't trifle with minor inconsistencies.
To do so would lead people to scoff at The Law, and that would indeed be a bad thing.

This matter at hand deals with the right of an individual to travel about on his own personal and private business.
We could not exist, if we were not free to travel about, as we find necessary.
Simple things... to the market, to the doctor, etc....
or to work.

And that's a biggie...

To keep our Union strong, individuals MUST be able to travel freely, from wherever they are, to wherever work may be.
So says the Courts.
And in their travels, they MUST know what to expect, from one state, to the next.
SO, the local statutes and ordinances must be at least similar, in all states.

If they were not, OUR Union would be weakened!

Therefore, if one state has no licensing requirements for these little motor assisted bicycles, the others must also be the same.

But you need to notify the court you shall introduce law/statutes/ordinances of contiguous states of the Union, in order to bring those matters up.

Good luck to you!
rc

..generally, they will squash you like a bug in the street for threatening their tax scam...

IMO, the People of our country would be well served by inexpensive personal transport! A motor assisted bicycle is perfect for many tasks!

 

[worksmanFL]

Hi all, long time no posts!

I found this link, and it might bring some clarity to your situation:

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-license-mopeds-bicycles.html

I hope this helps.

(btw, I have a gas powered bicycle, LEGALLY registered years ago, now defined as a MOPED. I did this so NOT to get hassled from the local Police Officers, and haven't had any issues at all.)

 

[biknut]

Hi all, long time no posts!

I found this link, and it might bring some clarity to your situation:

http://www.husseinandwebber.com/florida-license-mopeds-bicycles.html

I hope this helps.

(btw, I have a gas powered bicycle, LEGALLY registered years ago, now defined as a MOPED. I did this so NOT to get hassled from the local Police Officers, and haven't had any issues at all.)

Thanks for posting this link. This is all the information you need to win a no license court action for riding a gas powered motor bicycle in Florida.

If you read carefully this article says "all mopeds, and most vehicles commonly thought of as motor bicycles" . That means not all motor bicycles. The state is very careful not to explain exactly why you wouldn't need a license.

Allow me to explain why some motor bicycles need a license, and some don't. It's all about being self propelled of not self propelled. Florida is exactly like Texas. In order for any vehicle to be considered a motor vehicle it has to be considered self propelled. If it's not self propelled, it's not considered a motor vehicle, and so you don't need a license. It's that simple. Any other defense is not relevant, and would be doomed to failure.

So as long as you can honestly argue in court that your mb is not self propelled, because of the fact you must pedal to take off from a stop, you win. If you use this argument in court, and no police officer can say he saw you riding off from a stop without pedaling, you win.

This means most china girls will just be considered a bicycle, because they can't, and are in fact not designed to ride off from a complete stop solely under engine power. You need to pedal them up to speed before you can release the clutch all the way, or you're going to ruin the motor. So as long as no police officer can say he saw riding off from a stop without pedaling you win.

So make sure you always pedal from stops. Ask for a jury trial. You don't need a lawyer. It's better to argue the case yourself, because the lawyer probably doesn't know as much about the action as you do.

If you tell the judge of your intension at the arraignment, he's a fool if he allows the action to go to court. Usually they will dismiss the case before the trial date without reason.

 

[rustycase]

Thanks to worksmanfl for presenting all that great caselaw!
That is where you begin researching.

biknut made an excellent commentary!

What I use is a motor assisted bicycle.
I find it repugnant that agencies seek to impede my intention to conduct personal affairs without paying them dollars, first.

It just doesn't work for me.
I don't think that is right.

They should go out and get a real job.

Good luck to you!
rc

 

[RonB]

3/20/13 update" went to the big courthouse for a pre trial hearing on this case ,spoke with the prosecutor and showed him the notarized letter from the DMV James was kind enough to provide us and still the prosecutor did NOT want to dismiss the case. next month will mark one Full year of having to go appear in court every month just to have the prosecutor say he is not ready to move fore-ward or I need to talk to your attorney more or some kind of excuse. My attorney informed the judge of our position for wanting to either drop it or move it to jury trial and has granted us April 24th as trial date" the judge will consider a motion to dismiss the case before then when my attorney files a motion in the next few weeks. My attorney and i agree that the reason for all the delays is due to the prosecutor does not want to have case loss on his record and just does not want to deal with it! personaly" I want to go to trial to get a court ruling under a jury!

 

[jimmymc2286]

I not only want to thank you as a fellow motorized bicycle rider. I want to thank you as an American. More people need to stand up for what is right.
You sir are one of the few Hero's of our nation. A citizen Standing his ground against those that think our rights and freedom are theirs to take.