Indian Hiawatha

[fasteddy]

Measure Twice,
That may well have been the reason it broke. It was like a popet valve in a way. You pulled down on the lever on the handle bar and that lifted one end of the lever on the engine so the other end could push down on the valve that went into the head to relieve the pressure. When the handle bar lever was let go the spring on the valve which was sitting on the outside of the head closed it and engine compression kept it close as well as the spring strength.

If the head had a major carbon build up the valve wouldn't open and the lever on the head would break where it pivoted. The oil mix was 16-1 I think so that didn't help

Our favorite way to decoke an engine was to run it a few miles and then come home and pull the muffler off and the air cleaner and a mix of 50% warm water and 50% alcohol into the carb with a turkey baster very slowly while you reved the engine wide open. Better still you tried to get someone to stand behind you so they got covered in the oily, greasy crap that flew out.
Younger brothers were good for at least once. After that they were pretty hard to suck in. You had to tell your parents that they walked behind you as you did it because those clothes were never going to be clean again. The side of the house too if you weren't really careful.
We took the muffler off so it didn't plug up.

The old D9 Cat dozer I ran for a while had a small gas motor called a pup motor that had a small rubber wheel on it. You had to start it first and after you warmed it up you had to push against a lever that moved the pup motor and the wheel up against an exposed part of the diesels fly wheel to turn it over so it would start.

The motor on the jet motor may have worked the same way. If it had what they call a flame out while in the air I think the pilot has a very short time to put the plane into a steep dive to get enough air into the turbines so that the fans in the engine could get up to speed so the engine will start or they have to jump.
They may have had an compressed air starter but I don't know for sure.

The little motor took an minute to spool up the engine so it must have had a lot of torque.

Steve.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

Measure Twice,
That may well have been the reason it broke. It was like a popet valve in a way. You pulled down on the lever on the handle bar and that lifted one end of the lever on the engine so the other end could push down on the valve that went into the head to relieve the pressure. When the handle bar lever was let go the spring on the valve which was sitting on the outside of the head closed it and engine compression kept it close as well as the spring strength.

If the head had a major carbon build up the valve wouldn't open and the lever on the head would break where it pivoted. The oil mix was 16-1 I think so that didn't help

Our favorite way to decoke an engine was to run it a few miles and then come home and pull the muffler off and the air cleaner and a mix of 50% warm water and 50% alcohol into the carb with a turkey baster very slowly while you reved the engine wide open. Better still you tried to get someone to stand behind you so they got covered in the oily, greasy crap that flew out.
Younger brothers were good for at least once. After that they were pretty hard to suck in. You had to tell your parents that they walked behind you as you did it because those clothes were never going to be clean again. The side of the house too if you weren't really careful.
We took the muffler off so it didn't plug up.

The old D9 Cat dozer I ran for a while had a small gas motor called a pup motor that had a small rubber wheel on it. You had to start it first and after you warmed it up you had to push against a lever that moved the pup motor and the wheel up against an exposed part of the diesels fly wheel to turn it over so it would start.

The motor on the jet motor may have worked the same way. If it had what they call a flame out while in the air I think the pilot has a very short time to put the plane into a steep dive to get enough air into the turbines so that the fans in the engine could get up to speed so the engine will start or they have to jump.
They may have had an compressed air starter but I don't know for sure.

The little motor took an minute to spool up the engine so it must have had a lot of torque.

Steve.

The lever on the handle for the compression release was what broke off close to the pivot not the parts down by the cylinder head, but I guess any part could have broke if you pulled and the valve was stuck.

I should mention the cable for this and some others were too short to turn handle bars to steer and I though, how did this get on a museum floor, but oh well. Nice too see anyway. I know if the front brake cable was too short and you made a sharp turn, well there you go over the handle bars! I saw some guy do this on an english racer bike not meant for riding in the woods. But there he was going down a 10ft hill and back up again. Then in sucession another 10 foot hill. The distance across was only like 25 ft for each hill, so he probably came up on the second hill and cleared OK, but there was some guy stopped there and he hit the brake instead of go left or right. Way too much front brake and it was spectacular, sorry for the guy, but no broken neck and he got up sore and rode on.

 

[silverbear]

The lines of the metal bent to shape for holding the rear and front fenders are a nice style. The fender orament, that is just great. You should have little spot lights on it at night

Measure Twice

Glad you like the Hiawatha parts. No need for a spotlight on the ornament since I rarely ride at night. That's when old guys sleep.

Steve, I've never used a motor with a compression release valve. I don't have a clear picture in my mind of how the starting works. Say with the Sachs engines we're using... you would either pedal the bike a bit with the clutch in or have it on a stand and by hand crank the pedal, then let out the clutch and give it gas as you would with a China girl engine... so when do you open and close the compression release? I'm guessing that when you release the clutch the valve is open, then you close it as you give gas and off you go. Is that right?
SB

 

[fasteddy]

Silverbear,
That was the idea for the decompression valve. It was most useful on the motorized bikes because as you said you were able to pedal up to speed and then release the clutch and then as the engine turned over two or three times to draw fuel into the engine you closed the decompression valve and the motor would start.

It was also usefull if you didn't close the fuel line off or it had a slow leak and it hydro locked the cylinder. That slowed the trip up until the gas dried up.

The kick start motorcycles I always held the decompression valve in and turned the engine over two or three times to prime the cylinder with fuel and closed valve and then brought the piston up to the top and kicked it over to start it.

I remember having to pop the decompression valve open and closed at the top of the kick start to get it to turn over on the DOT but it was a scrambler/ hill climber and someone had gotten to the engine before I bought it. It was the only bike I owned that truely scared me because of the power.

I hill climbed with it for a summer but after going off it once to often I sold it on the spot and it did get a reputation as a killer though no one was really badly hurt other than broken bones that went with hill climbing.
The bike had a lot of owners but was always sold after a short while. Villiers engines could be made to really perform and were to me an excellent engine but needed constant care. That's why Honda took over.

Steve

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

I had a compression/vacuum release (not valved) that I on an engine long ago that I never tinkered with to get it running.

To explain, I saw a nice small hollowed out area next to the exhaust valve when I had the head off. Then at the bottom of the scalloped out area was a pin size hole that led to exhaust port just the other side of the exhaust valve.

It boggled my mind why you would have a leak for both compression and intake that would connect to where the muffler goes.

Any takes on why that was done to that engine?

If it ran as if I had put time into getting it running would it be just a way of lowering the horsepower output or something.

Exhaust fumes of minute amount I guess would be sucked in with atomized fuel from the carb. Also during compression some atomized fuel would also go out the exhaust by the parallel hole I described and possible wasted or actually sucked back in again with hot exhaust when it was intake time again.

Who was the nut or genius who did this to this engine?

Measure Twice

 

[charliechaindrive.]

Probably doc from b.t.t.f. haha but hmm that's gave me a idea, thanks

 

[silverbear]

Dan and I made some nice progress today in the Tinsmith's Shop in between sharing life stories and misadventures which is all part of the fun time working on the Indian. We had a nice lunch prepared by Dan's wife, Jackie and after went for a right brisk bike ride. While it was cold outside and getting ready for snow, a fire was burning in the shop's wood stove making work conditions just right.

Last week we got the tin prototype tank successfully tacked together and fitted into the frame. Dan made it as a pattern allowing for enough extra room to accommodate for the thicker copper sheet, between 2 1/2 to 3 times the thickness of the tin. Heavy stuff. It was slow going cutting out the side pieces with tin snips.

We did some testing with a scrap on the burring machine to see how the edge flaring would go and once Dan got a feel for it he went ahead with the side pieces. His concern was that the copper would want to roll some instead of making a crisp edge, so instead of being aggressive with the bend, he made a number of passes to ease the bend a little at a time. The result was perfect. Even so, some work still needed to be done at corners using a light hammer and steel block to tap the bends to match up with the longer runs, as can be seen in the next set of photos.
(cont.)
SB

 

[silverbear]

Dan took the time with the corners to make them as good as the sections which the burring machine took care of. Both side pieces are done and the flare is perfect which will make it that much easier next week to fit the long top piece and solder the tank together. Between now and then I'll get the bung ready so that we can make the hole to receive it before making the bends in the long piece.

It may not seem like we accomplished a lot, but we did in the few hours we worked. The tank is going to go together nicely and as can be seen with a side piece held in place on the Indian, it is going to look great.

See you next week in the Tinsmith's shop.
SB

 

[leaded50]

Nice workmansship! its coming alone great!! ;-)

 

[fasteddy]

The tank is wonderfull. Truly a tribute to the metalsmiths art. That bike is going to be a show piece when it's finished.

I'm thinking next summer maybe a copper canoe to match?

Steve.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

I was wondering how much gas will the tank hold. Don't get me wrong that I don't like it, just I was thinking the sides of the tank would be expanded outward a bit from the frame tubes. Am I right the tanks is no wider than the frame tubes themselves?

Measure Twice

 

[leaded50]

Measure...keep up waiting, i think its just one of the sides he\s holding up for test fit!!

 

[silverbear]

Measure...keep up waiting, i think its just one of the sides he\s holding up for test fit!!

Quite right. It is just one side held in place as a test fit and to see how the copper is going to look. Once the top piece is cut to the pattern of the tin version, the bends in the side pieces will be made Looked at from above the tank will be coffin shaped, tapering in at the front and the back. I have no idea how much gas it will hold. Enough. If I remember right the width is 4 1/2" at the wider mid section.

Steve,
No copper canoe for sure. Can you imagine how much copper that would take and how expensive it is? The aluminum canoe sidecar is just fine and shines up nice, as you know. The whole canoe cost $20.. and the end I used is $10.00 worth. If money were no object a copper sidecar would be awesome.
SB

 

[harry76]

Looking good..... man i love copper!!!! And i love the red color. This is going to look factory, which is a good thing.

 

[harry76]

I was just wondering, and maybe youve already discussed this, but since you are making a copper gas tank, does that mean all your hardware (bungs, fuel filler etc) need to, or will be out of copper?

 

[timboellner]

That's going to be one good looking tank guys. I think the copper against the red frame will look great together. It looks well proportioned to the frame
width-wise.

At 4 1/2" you have just enough width on the top piece to get a small bung mounted without going off the edge onto the side I think.

Any ideas on what type of hardware you will use to mount the tank with?

Tim

 

[silverbear]

Thanks for the nice comments. I love copper, too. I call it "poor man's gold". The bung is a simple one I've used before. It is a brass hose connector with the threading on half of it removed so that it will fit into a hole in the top of the gas tank and then get soldered to the tank. The cap will be a brass hose cap which is 3/4". The cap will be drilled for a vent hole. Fuel outlet will also be brass and I've yet to decide if it is going to get a glass bowl type of fuel filter or a copper one I made a year ago... depends on how much room I end up with and if a fuel bowl will fit. That hole will not get made until later on. Since the line going into the carburetor is presently copper I intend to do the whole line in copper.

Regarding the hardware holding the tank in place, I guess Dan and I had better give that some thought this week. I Imagine it will get a couple of U shaped copper or brass brackets above and I think it would be wise to also have a couple underneath to keep it snug and in place. On the inside of the tank we'll use acorn nuts soldered to the copper tank with holes drilled to a slightly smaller diameter for brass bolts.

It would be nice to have a larger diameter bung, but the hardware I'm using will look rich even if it is inexpensive (since it is so common). Care must be taken in filling the tank, but that's fine. The bung and cap come to less than $10.00 which fits my budget and is a bargain being heavy brass.

Tim,
I can never thank you enough for your gift of the copper for this tank. It was a generous thing and will have a big part in making this bike something special. I will never forget the "metal men"... you and Dan for making it happen. This spring you must come for a day of tinkering in Dan's shop in the morning and for an afternoon ride. I want you both to try out the Indian Hiawatha. Vroom!
SB

 

[silverbear]

Shown below is the brass hose coupling with brass cap. The third photo shows the lower half of the coupling with the threading removed. It still needs more shaving down, but you get the idea. I used a rotary tool with a small grindstone. It will get a couple of holes drilled in the lower section so that gas can pretty well fill the tank. Without drilling or making a vertical slot gasoline will fill only to the bottom of the bung, leaving trapped air above it.

The last photo shows a 1950's Cushman/Tillotson fuel shut off with brass fuel bowl which I bought last evening on ebay. I like it and think it will give a nice vintage touch.
SB

 

[leaded50]

silverbear, i used the same housing, but in chrome instead. Perhaps not possible to fill direct with the pistol at a gas station, (size..)but no trouble when to have some tools around! All for style, and this want be looking to big on your tank!
Try cutting down the top of it too, so the cap when closed goes all way down... looks nicer withou the gap!

 

[Tinsmith]

Mr Leaded, I think you are correct about shortening the filler. We can do that so the threads don't show when the cap is tightened. Good idea! My filler tube is small also and a bit of a hassle, but I only fill it every couple weeks and I do it a home not a gas station so it's not really a big deal. You are right on both counts! Thanks. Dan