You my friend are an ideas man. Another great idea but im leaning towards the painted on coating you suggested
Villiers beach cruiser
- Thread starter harry76
- Start date
Fasteddy, I'm picturing that and wondering if it would be good to use a too small tube measuring like 15 or 16 inches so that when it was deflated it would remain tight to the rim. Does that make sense? Seems like when tubes have no air in them (like when you get a flat) they are loose on the rim. A good contact cement would hold well I would think. But maybe a paint on coating would be best. Don't know. My moped rims have a deep V shaped channel where the spokes went through... like they were made for this. I'll take a picture tomorrow. Fasteddy, if you want one of my two, I'll take the pair to Minnesota with me. i only have use for one of them.
SB
SB
Silverbear, I think that small tube would work like a champ. Just so long as you could get enough air into it so it pressed against all the rim, you would have it made.
I'd look up adhesives and glues and see what is available on the net.
Regular contact cement may come loose as it warms up from the friction of the belt going over it. This is something only practice will tell for certain.
Thank you for the offer of the moped rims. I surely would like to have one.
I think the the rim with a decent coating of bed liner would work out the best. I did see it applied once and they roughed up the bed pretty hard. Seems it needs a real"tooth"to have it stick with out lifting.
I'm sure that wire brush on a drill would give you that. A couple of layers of tape would keep the coating from coming through the spoke holes and you would be ready to go.
I've read that once the liner is on the bed it is all but impossible to get it off. Comes in colours as well. Not inexpensive though.
Looking more like a fun build.
Steve.
I'd look up adhesives and glues and see what is available on the net.
Regular contact cement may come loose as it warms up from the friction of the belt going over it. This is something only practice will tell for certain.
Thank you for the offer of the moped rims. I surely would like to have one.
I think the the rim with a decent coating of bed liner would work out the best. I did see it applied once and they roughed up the bed pretty hard. Seems it needs a real"tooth"to have it stick with out lifting.
I'm sure that wire brush on a drill would give you that. A couple of layers of tape would keep the coating from coming through the spoke holes and you would be ready to go.
I've read that once the liner is on the bed it is all but impossible to get it off. Comes in colours as well. Not inexpensive though.
Looking more like a fun build.
Steve.
Silverbear or Fasteddy, Im still a little cofused about working out my gear ratio, i havent been able to find much info on what RPM's/HP these motors pull. The only info i have found is the description in a previous Youtube video i posted, he claimed 1HP at 2700rpm but like someone said i thought i had seen 3HP with with no mention of RPM. What do i do?
I have 26"wheels
The rear sheave is 445mm (17.52")
If i work on 2700rpm
Then a 100mm (3.94") front sprocket will give me a speed of 46.9 MPH
I plan to buy a pulley (if i can find one) on Wednesday when the shops open. So if this doesnt sound right any input would be greatly appreciated
I have 26"wheels
The rear sheave is 445mm (17.52")
If i work on 2700rpm
Then a 100mm (3.94") front sprocket will give me a speed of 46.9 MPH
I plan to buy a pulley (if i can find one) on Wednesday when the shops open. So if this doesnt sound right any input would be greatly appreciated
G'day Mate & Happy Easter down under. I just realized you're in the fall season, while here in the northern hemisphere spring is busting out all over.
I'm not at all savvy about gears and ratios. I wait for somebody smart to figure things like that out for me and go from there. Two who may know are msrfan and Quenton Guenther, both of whom know a lot about Whizzers and belt drive setups. I wonder if an adjustable front pulley would be helpful. If it were me and I was trying to get things lined up I guess I'd try to get the motor in place first, having it centered. Then I'd look at where a pulley can go on the motor shaft... is there much option how close in or far away to the engine it can be mounted? The third thing is the sheave. I would think it would need to be very close to the wheel since the bike frame may get in the way of the belt. I see on msrfan's builds that he has the frame crimped a bit where the belt would otherwise rub against the frame. On the other hand his 5 hsp Briggs engines are wide while your Villiers looks to be more narrow. His jackshaft arrangement (if that's what you call it), allows for some belt adjustment in and out from the frame, or at least that's my understanding. I imagine you're going to need to determine whether or not you need a jackshaft arrangement to get the belt going to the sheave in a straight line.
I shouldn't even speculate on this stuff, I know so little. The little book of msrfan's Briggs builds which I have made a copy of for you (hope that's OK msrfan) and will have in the mail tomorrow, should help to give you some ideas you can apply or adapt to the Villiers build.
I'm in the lucky position of having you to work all this out ahead of time so I can profit from your experience. By the time you are riding around I'll be starting on mine and pretty much "doing what Harry did". I'm afraid your pulley sizes may be partly trial and error. Are you figuring on some kind of automatic clutch or a manual clutch? I don't have much of a picture in my head of how you are going to go about it. Do you figure on pedal start? Gosh, so much to figure out...
SB
I'm not at all savvy about gears and ratios. I wait for somebody smart to figure things like that out for me and go from there. Two who may know are msrfan and Quenton Guenther, both of whom know a lot about Whizzers and belt drive setups. I wonder if an adjustable front pulley would be helpful. If it were me and I was trying to get things lined up I guess I'd try to get the motor in place first, having it centered. Then I'd look at where a pulley can go on the motor shaft... is there much option how close in or far away to the engine it can be mounted? The third thing is the sheave. I would think it would need to be very close to the wheel since the bike frame may get in the way of the belt. I see on msrfan's builds that he has the frame crimped a bit where the belt would otherwise rub against the frame. On the other hand his 5 hsp Briggs engines are wide while your Villiers looks to be more narrow. His jackshaft arrangement (if that's what you call it), allows for some belt adjustment in and out from the frame, or at least that's my understanding. I imagine you're going to need to determine whether or not you need a jackshaft arrangement to get the belt going to the sheave in a straight line.
I shouldn't even speculate on this stuff, I know so little. The little book of msrfan's Briggs builds which I have made a copy of for you (hope that's OK msrfan) and will have in the mail tomorrow, should help to give you some ideas you can apply or adapt to the Villiers build.
I'm in the lucky position of having you to work all this out ahead of time so I can profit from your experience. By the time you are riding around I'll be starting on mine and pretty much "doing what Harry did". I'm afraid your pulley sizes may be partly trial and error. Are you figuring on some kind of automatic clutch or a manual clutch? I don't have much of a picture in my head of how you are going to go about it. Do you figure on pedal start? Gosh, so much to figure out...
SB
Haha yeah hopefully i/we can work out some of the bugs, should make it a lot easier for you.
Working out the front pulley size is confusing me more then the fitting of the motor and sheave. I plan to buy the front pulley before i mount the motor, that way if im only a little out i could (but would rather not) offset the motor. Once i have the pulley fitted i will measure from the centre of the engine to the middle of the pulley. Then once i know that measurement i can know how far from the rim the sheave needs to be fitted. Then i will fit my motor and wheel with sheave. Then my next dillemma is how much bigger the belt needs to be (to spin freely when hand clutch not engaged).
I did an EXTREMELY (LOL) rough diagram of my hand clutch, much the same as found on early motorcycles.
Working out the front pulley size is confusing me more then the fitting of the motor and sheave. I plan to buy the front pulley before i mount the motor, that way if im only a little out i could (but would rather not) offset the motor. Once i have the pulley fitted i will measure from the centre of the engine to the middle of the pulley. Then once i know that measurement i can know how far from the rim the sheave needs to be fitted. Then i will fit my motor and wheel with sheave. Then my next dillemma is how much bigger the belt needs to be (to spin freely when hand clutch not engaged).
I did an EXTREMELY (LOL) rough diagram of my hand clutch, much the same as found on early motorcycles.
Oh and i plan to cut the rear triangle and bend it out and weld a piece in to allow for the extra width of the sheave
Harry, I'm not much help with gear ratios either I'm afraid. The man I bought the Atco Villiers from told me that the best idea was to follow what Whizzer did using a jack shaft.
Not faulting your idea and I have thought about the same set up many times but in the middle of a panic stop the last thing you may have time for is disengaging the clutch.
I'm trying to dust off some old memories but if I'm right my old Francis Barnett with a 100cc Villiers motor was good for around 70mph or over 110 kmh flat out on a straight run in 4th gear.
My guess is that with the right gear ratio these motors will put you in to speeds that you may have a need to go home and change you y fronts if it goes bad. Remember we are riding on bicycle tires.
That said these motors were designed to happily thump away pushing a lawn mower for years. That's why there are so many still around. They were not built for speed though I would think if you were to apply different motorcycle speed mods to them they may well yield more speed.
Just remember you are breaking new ground with all this, so it will take time and a lot of creative staring. That's Silverbears term and it works..
I'm going to email a used book merchant in England who listed a bunch of Villiers farm and motorcycle books and see if I can find books on repairs and operating these mowers.
I will email the chap I got the motor from tomorrow and ask if I can post the link to the museum site where his restorations are. You have to know his name and location to know which bikes and motor wheels are his. I'll ask him also about what gear ratios he would recomend if he can.
When you see the high quality of his restorations you will understand his depth of knowledge. I just don't want to pester him for information.
Steve.
Not faulting your idea and I have thought about the same set up many times but in the middle of a panic stop the last thing you may have time for is disengaging the clutch.
I'm trying to dust off some old memories but if I'm right my old Francis Barnett with a 100cc Villiers motor was good for around 70mph or over 110 kmh flat out on a straight run in 4th gear.
My guess is that with the right gear ratio these motors will put you in to speeds that you may have a need to go home and change you y fronts if it goes bad. Remember we are riding on bicycle tires.
That said these motors were designed to happily thump away pushing a lawn mower for years. That's why there are so many still around. They were not built for speed though I would think if you were to apply different motorcycle speed mods to them they may well yield more speed.
Just remember you are breaking new ground with all this, so it will take time and a lot of creative staring. That's Silverbears term and it works..
I'm going to email a used book merchant in England who listed a bunch of Villiers farm and motorcycle books and see if I can find books on repairs and operating these mowers.
I will email the chap I got the motor from tomorrow and ask if I can post the link to the museum site where his restorations are. You have to know his name and location to know which bikes and motor wheels are his. I'll ask him also about what gear ratios he would recomend if he can.
When you see the high quality of his restorations you will understand his depth of knowledge. I just don't want to pester him for information.
Steve.
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Sounds like you are doing your homework. Excellent.
I am aware of the downsides of a direct drive hand clutch in an emergency, but considering i will have front and rear oversized disc brakes even if i cant disengage the clutch, but do get off the throttle im guessing it would come to a stop and stall. Do you think?
I intend on doing a few builds all different setups so id like to try a hand clutch on this.
And sounds like this chap could be very helpful but i totally understand not wanting to pester him.
And as far as the gear ratio unless someone can advise me of a better choice i think ill go with the 100mm pulley, and just trial and error. If the pulley isnt right i may be able to use it in a future build as i have a few more motors to play with.
I am aware of the downsides of a direct drive hand clutch in an emergency, but considering i will have front and rear oversized disc brakes even if i cant disengage the clutch, but do get off the throttle im guessing it would come to a stop and stall. Do you think?
I intend on doing a few builds all different setups so id like to try a hand clutch on this.
And sounds like this chap could be very helpful but i totally understand not wanting to pester him.
And as far as the gear ratio unless someone can advise me of a better choice i think ill go with the 100mm pulley, and just trial and error. If the pulley isnt right i may be able to use it in a future build as i have a few more motors to play with.
Pictured below is the wheel and sheave I intend to use on my Villiers/Indian tri-car build. The wheel was laced up using a 50's Schwinn 26X 2.125 rim, 12 gauge spokes and the rear hub from an AMF moped. I have set on top of it the moped rim left over from using the moped hub. The rim measures approximately 16 inches in diameter and is stout. Something good about it is the channel in the rim where the spokes attached to the nipples... just right for a V belt I would think. What may be bad about it is the rim is wide to accept a 3" tire and will mean the belt may be far enough from the drive wheel to run into the frame. I won't know that until I try it of course.
As a kind of aside, an old moped can yield a lot of useful parts in a build of this kind... a suspension front fork with ears for a headlight, speedometer, handlebars, throttle control and brake levers, drum brake hubs which can be laced into a 26" wheels providing they are 36 hole, switches and in this case the sheave for a belt drive. So a dead moped could be a great resource for useful parts. Something to consider. Msrfan got me thinking along these lines...thanks, Bud.
SB
As a kind of aside, an old moped can yield a lot of useful parts in a build of this kind... a suspension front fork with ears for a headlight, speedometer, handlebars, throttle control and brake levers, drum brake hubs which can be laced into a 26" wheels providing they are 36 hole, switches and in this case the sheave for a belt drive. So a dead moped could be a great resource for useful parts. Something to consider. Msrfan got me thinking along these lines...thanks, Bud.
SB
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SB i love your rear hub. SWEET! I do keep an eye out for mopeds on EBay but we dont see many loder style like these in Oz and if i do they want good money :-(
The only downside to using that sheave i could see if you intend to do direct drive like me is the sidewalls of the rim dont look high enough to keep the belt on the sheave when the tension is off the belt. My sheave has a 10mm
(1/2") tall sidewall.
Im also going to build a Indian replica (worlds slowest Indian Briggs powered) and am now wondering whether i should use a Villiers as well. Im thinking the Villiers is a closer match to their single cylinder version then what my 3hp Briggs. I suppose i have time to think about it.
The only downside to using that sheave i could see if you intend to do direct drive like me is the sidewalls of the rim dont look high enough to keep the belt on the sheave when the tension is off the belt. My sheave has a 10mm
(1/2") tall sidewall.
Im also going to build a Indian replica (worlds slowest Indian Briggs powered) and am now wondering whether i should use a Villiers as well. Im thinking the Villiers is a closer match to their single cylinder version then what my 3hp Briggs. I suppose i have time to think about it.
I have another question/dilemma..... seeing as electrical is definitely my weakest suit, how do i go about making a kill switch for this? If at all possible.
In the video posted previously it showed proper start up and shut down. It says shut down procedure is shutting off fuel and closing choke/strangulator. And when i tried this method when i was running the motor on the stationary stand it took quite some time to stop. Not very safe for a MB.
In the video posted previously it showed proper start up and shut down. It says shut down procedure is shutting off fuel and closing choke/strangulator. And when i tried this method when i was running the motor on the stationary stand it took quite some time to stop. Not very safe for a MB.
And while im asking how to stop it, i should probably ask for advice on how to start it.
The motor does have that freewheel sprocket on the flywheel side for a kickstarter. Im not ruling out using that but i think its in a bad spot. I will need to take a closer look once the motor is fitted.
Does anyone know or can take an educated guess whether i will be able to pedal it and clutch start it? Or will i need the kickstart or rope pull?
The motor does have that freewheel sprocket on the flywheel side for a kickstarter. Im not ruling out using that but i think its in a bad spot. I will need to take a closer look once the motor is fitted.
Does anyone know or can take an educated guess whether i will be able to pedal it and clutch start it? Or will i need the kickstart or rope pull?
On old lawn mowers I recall killing the motor by depressing a littl sprint like tab at the spark plug which made contact between the body of the motor and the spark plug. I would think you could do the same thing. No doubt there is something simple in the wiring where it cold be grounded. I'm sure that on a motorcycle you didn't have to wait for the choke to kill it. Msrfan would know as I imagine the Briggs are the same.
He bump starts his Brigs and employs a decompression valve which he fabricates for the 5 Horse Briggs, as you'll see in the little booklet which was sent out today. I'll see if I can post a picture of the engine layout which indicates it has a decompression valve. I'll see if I can find it...
...here it is. Wouldn't this also be a way to kill the engine? How could it run without compression? I've never seen one of these, so am just guessing.
By the way, I believe the magneto on these can produce enough juice for lights. I'm just guessing but imagine it employed the same magneto whether it was for a motorcycle or stationary appllication. I guess we'll find out.
SB
He bump starts his Brigs and employs a decompression valve which he fabricates for the 5 Horse Briggs, as you'll see in the little booklet which was sent out today. I'll see if I can post a picture of the engine layout which indicates it has a decompression valve. I'll see if I can find it...
...here it is. Wouldn't this also be a way to kill the engine? How could it run without compression? I've never seen one of these, so am just guessing.
By the way, I believe the magneto on these can produce enough juice for lights. I'm just guessing but imagine it employed the same magneto whether it was for a motorcycle or stationary appllication. I guess we'll find out.
SB
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Harry, electric isn't my thing either but the simple way is a strip of spring steel bolted to a head bolt and pressed against the spark plug top. Hold it until the motor stops which will not be long. Not to sure what else you can do since these motors get their power from a magneto and I can't remember if you ground out the coil it messes everything up.
Someone who has a better knowledge of these will answer I'm sure.
If your going to use the tank mounted clutch I would think that it would work fine. After you pedal the bike up to a bit of speed the rear wheel will turn the engine over and start the engine when you engage the clutch.
The original engines were started by putting them up on their rear wheel stands and were pedaled with the clutch engaged and the the clutch was let off when the bike started.
If you google starting an antique motorcycle, something should come up so you can see how they did it.
Remember the larger sheave on the rear wheel will spin the motor at a much faster rate than the rear wheel it turning.
Hope that this was some help.
Steve.
Someone who has a better knowledge of these will answer I'm sure.
If your going to use the tank mounted clutch I would think that it would work fine. After you pedal the bike up to a bit of speed the rear wheel will turn the engine over and start the engine when you engage the clutch.
The original engines were started by putting them up on their rear wheel stands and were pedaled with the clutch engaged and the the clutch was let off when the bike started.
If you google starting an antique motorcycle, something should come up so you can see how they did it.
Remember the larger sheave on the rear wheel will spin the motor at a much faster rate than the rear wheel it turning.
Hope that this was some help.
Steve.
Darn SB got there first.
I'm getting ready to email some people in England who supply parts and repairs for these motors and ask about the lighting and see if there is a special lighting coil as well as ignition coil and see if they can be applied to these motors if there are.
I just bought another motor in England that needs a carb so I need to ask about them as well. It may need more but the seller said it had good compression and spark but no carb.
Thinking about getting a speed secrets book for the Villiers as well. Strictly so I'm in the know as how to do it and not for any personal use. Heaven forbid.
Did see my 98cc James on the net and it had something like 4.6 horse power but didn't give a rpm. Will have to look into it more. Didn't have a 4 speed either as I remembered. It was a 3 speed trans. That was just to many years ago and too many cobwebs in the mental attic.
Steve.
I'm getting ready to email some people in England who supply parts and repairs for these motors and ask about the lighting and see if there is a special lighting coil as well as ignition coil and see if they can be applied to these motors if there are.
I just bought another motor in England that needs a carb so I need to ask about them as well. It may need more but the seller said it had good compression and spark but no carb.
Thinking about getting a speed secrets book for the Villiers as well. Strictly so I'm in the know as how to do it and not for any personal use. Heaven forbid.
Did see my 98cc James on the net and it had something like 4.6 horse power but didn't give a rpm. Will have to look into it more. Didn't have a 4 speed either as I remembered. It was a 3 speed trans. That was just to many years ago and too many cobwebs in the mental attic.
Steve.
Why couldn't you run a wire from the head bolt to a kill switch on the handlebar and from the switch back to the spark plug? Not that pressing the spring steel piece against the plug is hard or anything. Just thinking up a what if. I still like that kick start if there's a way to use it.
SB
SB
I'd thought about that to but was thinking of the pretty, no wires running all over the bike look. It would work like a champ though.
Saw a kill switch on the Villiers 4 stroke and they ran on the a magneto as well so that may be wrong on my part. Just remember that the mag on the old bikes didn't like being played around with.
Another cup of tea and more research.
Steve.
Saw a kill switch on the Villiers 4 stroke and they ran on the a magneto as well so that may be wrong on my part. Just remember that the mag on the old bikes didn't like being played around with.
Another cup of tea and more research.
Steve.
Yes, on vintage rides it would be more in keeping with the early days of motorcycles to keep things clean and not have wires all over the place.
SB
SB
Keep talking guys im hoping you can come up with the best solution as im no good with electrical (i should really learn more). Congrats on the new engine Steve. Im going to bid on another in a couple days. Its only up to $25.
SB you were asking about the bracket setup for the sheave and how the handclutch would work. Well in Budfabs video he has the same setup. Although his sheave is bigger making the brackets shorter (stronger) but hopefully mine will still work. I never grow tired of this video. If you have seen it its an excuse to watch it again.
YouTube - 1905ish Homemade Motorcycle
And just incase you havent seen it. His maytag powered bicycle bicycle is worth a look. This guy knows his stuff. He has a 50cc land speed record of like 130mph. Crazy
YouTube - Maytag Bicycle
SB you were asking about the bracket setup for the sheave and how the handclutch would work. Well in Budfabs video he has the same setup. Although his sheave is bigger making the brackets shorter (stronger) but hopefully mine will still work. I never grow tired of this video. If you have seen it its an excuse to watch it again.
YouTube - 1905ish Homemade Motorcycle
And just incase you havent seen it. His maytag powered bicycle bicycle is worth a look. This guy knows his stuff. He has a 50cc land speed record of like 130mph. Crazy
YouTube - Maytag Bicycle