Old Guys V twin & sidecar
- Thread starter indian22
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indian22
Well-Known Member
Thanks Greg!
Weather forecasst for the rest of this month no colder than 60's for daily highs tomorrow 80 here.
Working and riding every day. the Ol' Crow has a dozen or more changes in store for her not including the side hack. These are just leading up to the addition of a car.
Rick C.
Weather forecasst for the rest of this month no colder than 60's for daily highs tomorrow 80 here.
Working and riding every day. the Ol' Crow has a dozen or more changes in store for her not including the side hack. These are just leading up to the addition of a car.
Rick C.
indian22
Well-Known Member
Hi guys been machining small parts for the Ol' Crow, some in steel, and others inbrass and aluminum. A lot of fittings, but also started on the Sprag, pedal clutch too. The reduction gear gets a lubrication setup for the oil bronze pedal axle bushing. It wasn"t hard to remove the reduction assembly for service, but this is better, easier and quicker. The oil lite bushing shows no wear after running several hundred miles on the initial application of service oil, they are tough! I used a sealed roller bearing as the outside bearing, but I will use only oil lite for both bearings on subsequent reduction drives.
Not much to see for most of this work, but the varius changes add up to a more dependable and easiet to maintain cycle.
My controller changes include high regenerative braking, not for charging benefits (which is a joke concept for ebikes) but it adds substantially improved braking for a heavy, fast machine equipped with vintage style drum brakes which don't actually provide much in the way of stopping power. The high regen is a huge aid to the drum brakes and is very similar in nature to compression braking on a three speed, with clutch, internal combustion engine bike. Regen cuts my 35 mph to zero braking time in half! The side car will have a disc brake so I really think braking both bike(solo) and with the hack attached will be good and I don't feature riding the rig combo more than 25 mph anyway.
Photos will be posted, as they seem relevant, to follow.
Rick C.
Not much to see for most of this work, but the varius changes add up to a more dependable and easiet to maintain cycle.
My controller changes include high regenerative braking, not for charging benefits (which is a joke concept for ebikes) but it adds substantially improved braking for a heavy, fast machine equipped with vintage style drum brakes which don't actually provide much in the way of stopping power. The high regen is a huge aid to the drum brakes and is very similar in nature to compression braking on a three speed, with clutch, internal combustion engine bike. Regen cuts my 35 mph to zero braking time in half! The side car will have a disc brake so I really think braking both bike(solo) and with the hack attached will be good and I don't feature riding the rig combo more than 25 mph anyway.
Photos will be posted, as they seem relevant, to follow.
Rick C.
indian22
Well-Known Member
Clean and adjusted chains while I modified the lubrication of my reduction sprocket, I'm ordering new chain for the primary drive, I used a piece of old chain, shouldn't have, but did so time for replacement. It did last 2 years however.
Headlamp got some paint and is mounted. The wiring of which led me down a rabbit hole of electrical stuff and how to reach an electrically sound bike which functions properly. To lengthy to go into at this time, but adding a third 20 amp hr 48 v battery, all three running simultaneously through a balancing parallel circut and a power analizer is the gist of my plan.
I have a 150 amp 60 volt analizer which I use on the bench but will mount it on the bike to track, in real time, my power consumption. Along with a GPS for the other aspects of my rides. Though not a fan of digital readouts on a vintage style bike I plan to disguise it a bit....in plain sight.
Other stuff like the Sprag clutch has progreesed well but I have a sprocket on order that slowed me up.
Not much to show still.
Rick C.
Headlamp got some paint and is mounted. The wiring of which led me down a rabbit hole of electrical stuff and how to reach an electrically sound bike which functions properly. To lengthy to go into at this time, but adding a third 20 amp hr 48 v battery, all three running simultaneously through a balancing parallel circut and a power analizer is the gist of my plan.
I have a 150 amp 60 volt analizer which I use on the bench but will mount it on the bike to track, in real time, my power consumption. Along with a GPS for the other aspects of my rides. Though not a fan of digital readouts on a vintage style bike I plan to disguise it a bit....in plain sight.
Other stuff like the Sprag clutch has progreesed well but I have a sprocket on order that slowed me up.
Not much to show still.
Rick C.
indian22
Well-Known Member
It never hurts to triple check my work and boy it's a good thing I did. In a previous post I explained the benefits of running high regenerative braking for actual help in stopping a bike and this is fact, but after I did a deeper dive into the use of dual and triple battery balancers I discovered a warning against using regen braking with these devices and running more than one battery, or at least the one I bought. So I caution any who might want to run multiple batteries at the same time and going through a parallel balancer to contact a factory service rep about hookup with regen brakes. I'm looking for more info on why this is a problem, but as of now I don't have an explanation, other than excessive voltage feedback during regen braking?
This info bummed me a bit because I really like the high braking provided with regen on my drum brake bike. They aren't great on a heavy bike that has 40 mph speed, so I better slow down.
I'll remove the previous info given.
Rick C.
This info bummed me a bit because I really like the high braking provided with regen on my drum brake bike. They aren't great on a heavy bike that has 40 mph speed, so I better slow down.
I'll remove the previous info given.
Rick C.
indian22
Well-Known Member
indian22
Well-Known Member
Those forks are way down in price now. The analog gauge is what I prefer in volts and amperes, but I need at least 60 amps and most don't go that high. 60 volts is fine though. Smith makes some small diameter sizes in analog. I'm still checking thanks for the info share.
Rick C.
Rick C.
Tony01
Well-Known Member
I think you could get away with not using those parallel balancer thingies. I’m still not sure of the need to use them, or how they work. If it has some kind of switching circuitry then definitely get rid of it. Just another thing that can fail. People who build with rc Lipos usually just make a complicated mess of series and parallel connections as needed. I would just splice a parallel plug and connect them together when charged to the same exact voltage. A tiny mismatch will result in one battery charging the other until they are matched and after that, they will never become unmatched. On my build I’ll be putting two batt plugs or running a bus bar block where I can add another battery later in parallel. Have them work together, charge and discharge together. Because of sag you can actually run your batteries a little lower than with a single as it will be half the sag at any voltage. I’ll be using the same cell type if I add a batt, but I don’t have to. It could be any battery chemistry or capacity as long as the voltage is the same. Regen is far too valuable to lose it over some parallel balancing magic.
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indian22
Well-Known Member
Hi Tony. Good points. I still haven't come up with a why no regen. The dual battery balance box is now a pretty common factory e bike feature on dual battery models and the generic after market balancers came later. The factory versions seem to allow running regen braking and this is why I started looking for why behind the warning I saw about not hooking up regen on the aftermarket product. I'll try to get a response from a manufacturer on this. The only schematic I've seen shows a diode, ESC and a FET as base components. One company claims mixing say a 36v with a 48v is ok, another says same voltages only can be used, differing amps it seems are ok however on differing brands of battery pack balancers.
My hunch is that too many people are passing along single channel YouTube so called expert info and it's getting repeated, without fact checking and I'm gulty as any in this, but will do my best to figure out the why and why not of the matter. In the mean time my dual setup works well to this point and was super easy to set up, use and charge using two chargers to cut charging time down. My cells are 18650 and I run 40 amp BMS in both battery packs of 48v 20 amp hr these aren't custom, but I requested 40 amp BMS on each pack and my controller has 100 v capacitors and FET'S rated way over what a 40 amp controller requires continuous I also have controllers which are rated quite high 72v and over 100 amp continuous, but really like the lower power setup. I'm old and don't feel the need for speed lol
If any of you sees something interesting on the use of multiple battery balancers or blenders I would appreciate hearing from you.
Thanks
Rick C
My hunch is that too many people are passing along single channel YouTube so called expert info and it's getting repeated, without fact checking and I'm gulty as any in this, but will do my best to figure out the why and why not of the matter. In the mean time my dual setup works well to this point and was super easy to set up, use and charge using two chargers to cut charging time down. My cells are 18650 and I run 40 amp BMS in both battery packs of 48v 20 amp hr these aren't custom, but I requested 40 amp BMS on each pack and my controller has 100 v capacitors and FET'S rated way over what a 40 amp controller requires continuous I also have controllers which are rated quite high 72v and over 100 amp continuous, but really like the lower power setup. I'm old and don't feel the need for speed lol
If any of you sees something interesting on the use of multiple battery balancers or blenders I would appreciate hearing from you.
Thanks
Rick C
indian22
Well-Known Member
A couple of things to mention is that geared hub and geared hub motors almost never offer regen braking I've heard of only two and they are both really expensive setups. The reason being they are motors with internal freewheel clutch motors, which can't reverse spin and drive as a generator. Whereas a direct drive motor can, examples of which include scooter motors and gearless hub or mid drive motors.
It seems the motors feedback voltage to replenish the batteries damages the parallel balancer circut and can cause damage to balancer and other elements of the battery and BMS too. So it's a balancer problem.
With a direct drive, hub or middrive, gearless motor a regenerative controller, and lithium ion battery with BMS regens fine. Spark cycles was actually the only distributor of this type balance box which bothered to warn against it's use with direct drive motors. They did not go into why and claimed proprietary knowledge of the circut would not be discussed??
For me I'll dig for more info, but like Tony I want more braking and regen gives more than you can believe, more than both my drum brakes together provide. If a dual balancer won't work with regen braking on my bikes I'll manually connect my batteries, not a big hassle, just a little one. I do like this dual balancer and it really delays voltage sag as it is always resting one of the batteries for a few moments before switching to the other and both run cooler too. This is in real time so the packs are only drawing down millivolts before switching. Same as a good BMS does with individuals cells in a pack which go just a fraction of a volt low.
If indeed it is just a voltage feedback problem to the balancer then a more sophisticated balancer might be designed.
As Tony said if you know what you're doing a straight parallel connection does work, if you are cautious.
I don't have a lot of dollars invested in this but a heck of a lot of study time which I've enjoyed, yet a large part of my problems with this hobby is in finding dealers/distributors which are knowledgeable, at least capable ofpointing me in the right direction on new products or services information.
Rick C.
It seems the motors feedback voltage to replenish the batteries damages the parallel balancer circut and can cause damage to balancer and other elements of the battery and BMS too. So it's a balancer problem.
With a direct drive, hub or middrive, gearless motor a regenerative controller, and lithium ion battery with BMS regens fine. Spark cycles was actually the only distributor of this type balance box which bothered to warn against it's use with direct drive motors. They did not go into why and claimed proprietary knowledge of the circut would not be discussed??
For me I'll dig for more info, but like Tony I want more braking and regen gives more than you can believe, more than both my drum brakes together provide. If a dual balancer won't work with regen braking on my bikes I'll manually connect my batteries, not a big hassle, just a little one. I do like this dual balancer and it really delays voltage sag as it is always resting one of the batteries for a few moments before switching to the other and both run cooler too. This is in real time so the packs are only drawing down millivolts before switching. Same as a good BMS does with individuals cells in a pack which go just a fraction of a volt low.
If indeed it is just a voltage feedback problem to the balancer then a more sophisticated balancer might be designed.
As Tony said if you know what you're doing a straight parallel connection does work, if you are cautious.
I don't have a lot of dollars invested in this but a heck of a lot of study time which I've enjoyed, yet a large part of my problems with this hobby is in finding dealers/distributors which are knowledgeable, at least capable ofpointing me in the right direction on new products or services information.
Rick C.
Tom from Rubicon
Well-Known Member
Might be time to search for EV forums Rick. Back in 96 I machined built all the hardware for a EV controller. At the time, pulsed power was the thing and likely should be today. Our project never considered Regen. Though we should have, DC motors being what they are.
Tom
Tom
indian22
Well-Known Member
Right Pete been lurking electric forums for several years now, RC, e bikes, cycles and automotive and did the same thing on this forum too, spent several years learning, and building gas bikes before I joined in with the give and take here. I'm still learning and I enjoy every bit of it and benefit from it all, but I especially like participating in this forum.
Are you all set to ride your Flyer this Spring?
Rick C.
Are you all set to ride your Flyer this Spring?
Rick C.
Tony01
Well-Known Member
The rear variable regen is my strongest brake. I have it on a second throttle mounted backwards on the left. As such I do not run a bms in case it shuts down and disables it. In fact a bms is just another item to fail so although I can’t sell batteries like this, I recommend to not run one and just balance off the road every couple months. A good pack (also a large one) shouldn’t go out of balance for a long time.
The thing is if a bms fails you will never know until the battery blows up or you begin to see that it doesn’t hold charge as well. A failure could cause one cell to drop so charging to full will cause overcharging of all other cells. Or it could discharge a cell to LVC without our knowledge. How much do you trust a Chinese BMS? So are we supposed to check the bms every ride? Before and after? Once a week? The active balancers I use essentially serve as multi-channel multimeters that can also balance.
The thing is if a bms fails you will never know until the battery blows up or you begin to see that it doesn’t hold charge as well. A failure could cause one cell to drop so charging to full will cause overcharging of all other cells. Or it could discharge a cell to LVC without our knowledge. How much do you trust a Chinese BMS? So are we supposed to check the bms every ride? Before and after? Once a week? The active balancers I use essentially serve as multi-channel multimeters that can also balance.
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indian22
Well-Known Member
Hi Tony the way you set regen up is one I've considered. I watched a 2 hour lecture recently about ebike regeneration, given by the engineer from Grin, he's really knowledgeable. He showed a simulator graph, that, long story short showed regen brakes povide 85% of braking and wheel brakes are mainly used for low speed braking, basically walking speed. Some bikes eat brake pads three meals a day. I have two that eat pads and on one I now use the coaster brake some, but front brake almost never. This is a little low power town bike and I like running errands on it, but brake pads were costing me....no more.
I agree a BMS or for that matter a controller failure would leave a guy brakeless so I run good brakes front and rear just in case, but to this point no problem. I use a thumb throttle to operate the active regen on one and a twist throttle on the other.
I do leave the BMS active for both charging and discharging, but have deactivated discharge on 72v pack to supply a big hi amp controller. I only use direct drive motors, but my Ol' Crow has a reduction drive externally, no free wheel clutch, for a pretty significant final drive ratio. 4 to1 on primary and 3.8 to one final ratio. With a tall 27.5" diameter rear tire it will roll about 40mph with a full charge befor a little sag sits in. Nominal charge voltage yield low to mid 30's, it is a hill climber though.
I appreciate comments as I sure don't know it all and often a verification by others can really help or a warning can save me time, money and keep me safe.
Rick C.
I agree a BMS or for that matter a controller failure would leave a guy brakeless so I run good brakes front and rear just in case, but to this point no problem. I use a thumb throttle to operate the active regen on one and a twist throttle on the other.
I do leave the BMS active for both charging and discharging, but have deactivated discharge on 72v pack to supply a big hi amp controller. I only use direct drive motors, but my Ol' Crow has a reduction drive externally, no free wheel clutch, for a pretty significant final drive ratio. 4 to1 on primary and 3.8 to one final ratio. With a tall 27.5" diameter rear tire it will roll about 40mph with a full charge befor a little sag sits in. Nominal charge voltage yield low to mid 30's, it is a hill climber though.
I appreciate comments as I sure don't know it all and often a verification by others can really help or a warning can save me time, money and keep me safe.
Rick C.
MEASURE TWICE
Well-Known Member
About old style ammeter that runs dc amps to 100 dc amps. I have an old one with attached photos you can see. The shunt on this one gives 2 amps DC Full Scale on the Weston Model 2531. They don't exist any more though. Other company similar name is different business. The shunt is just a wire on the back. Calibrated close I will check. Used to use it when charging lead acid car batteries on a slow charge. I still have the large big finned selenium rectifier that was used with the Lionel 250 Watt AC Model Train Transformer. I suppose some nichrome wire that I have for my hot wire foam cutter could be added to fine tune as a calibration shunt.
Another I saw was not US Made, but does have a large shunt to use to have the scale that already exists on the meter go to 100 Amps DC Full Scale.
Anyway just a thought. I though would much rather a clip on ammeter to sense a small amount of current and have it run a panel meter in micro amps that would equate to 100 amps on the handle bars or near that.
Running even some fancy wireless gadget that takes a small sample of the current being used or generated (generative braking), for the scale that goes - 100 dca to + 100dca on an old style meter would be a neat trick!
The overseas stuff meter image:
Ebay links to some of these ammeters.
other not showing ammeter shunt
Maybe the person selling used does not realize you need the shunt or else! I suppose maybe the meter without is goo for miliamps, maybe 50 mA DC max Full Scale?
Another I saw was not US Made, but does have a large shunt to use to have the scale that already exists on the meter go to 100 Amps DC Full Scale.
Anyway just a thought. I though would much rather a clip on ammeter to sense a small amount of current and have it run a panel meter in micro amps that would equate to 100 amps on the handle bars or near that.
Running even some fancy wireless gadget that takes a small sample of the current being used or generated (generative braking), for the scale that goes - 100 dca to + 100dca on an old style meter would be a neat trick!
The overseas stuff meter image:
Ebay links to some of these ammeters.
US Stock DC -100A ~ +100A Analog AMP Current Needle Panel Meter Ammeter & Shunt | eBay
It does not require a shunt. 2 x Spring Washers. Scale Range: -100A ~ +100A.
www.ebay.com
US Stock DC 0 ~ 100A Analog AMP Current Needle Panel Meter Ammeter XT-72 & Shunt | eBay
Scale Range: DC 100A. Size: 72 mm x 72 mm x 45 mm. 2 x Spring Washers.
www.ebay.com
other not showing ammeter shunt
Maybe the person selling used does not realize you need the shunt or else! I suppose maybe the meter without is goo for miliamps, maybe 50 mA DC max Full Scale?
Vintage Weston Model 2531 Panel Meter 50 uA movement with 0 to 100 Amp DC Scale | eBay
Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Vintage Weston Model 2531 Panel Meter 50 uA movement with 0 to 100 Amp DC Scale at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!
www.ebay.com
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indian22
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the links and photos. I really like vintage gauge sets.
I will however use digital for my bike and try to disguise them a bit and keep the gauge footprint small while providing needed data.
My wireless GPS speedo is small and the analyzer is as well, just need to machine a dashboard to house both.
I got cell phone hacked and have been dealing with the financial fallout of these things for a few days, it's working out, but takes time to straighten out. Not all bad as it woke me up security wise with banks, cards and cell providers....
Rick C.
I will however use digital for my bike and try to disguise them a bit and keep the gauge footprint small while providing needed data.
My wireless GPS speedo is small and the analyzer is as well, just need to machine a dashboard to house both.
I got cell phone hacked and have been dealing with the financial fallout of these things for a few days, it's working out, but takes time to straighten out. Not all bad as it woke me up security wise with banks, cards and cell providers....
Rick C.
MEASURE TWICE
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear trouble with hackers.
The AVG Internet and Virus Protection I got for my computer also gave protection that I can put on the cell phone beside the phone mfr stuff. Not saying AVG is the best or any other, just what I have been using and also has VPN Virtual Private Network for no extra fee. They always have other stuff they want you to buy, but this package has so far been good.
MT
ps see video at mark 2:24 point, the gauges there on top front of fuel tank. Speed is 0 as kick stand down. But Volts looks between 10 and 20 an stays quite stable. The other on that is stable till rev up and slow down looks to maybe be charge current. Yea there are others looking nice an new looking, but this has character.
The AVG Internet and Virus Protection I got for my computer also gave protection that I can put on the cell phone beside the phone mfr stuff. Not saying AVG is the best or any other, just what I have been using and also has VPN Virtual Private Network for no extra fee. They always have other stuff they want you to buy, but this package has so far been good.
MT
ps see video at mark 2:24 point, the gauges there on top front of fuel tank. Speed is 0 as kick stand down. But Volts looks between 10 and 20 an stays quite stable. The other on that is stable till rev up and slow down looks to maybe be charge current. Yea there are others looking nice an new looking, but this has character.
indian22
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info. I don't know the origin of the attack or it's target. My bank has had recent and similar breeches involving financial transactions through Google, and they believe It's Google that was hacked and my credit card info stolen. I don't know, but about 3/4 of the funds stole were returned to my bank account today. Two other transactions were charged to my cell phone provider and this is still in limbo, but my bank said they will back any of my losses.
After dealing with my cell provider yesterday, not helpful at all, I decided to close my account with them and find a new provider. My cell is several years old, so I purchased a new one. My bank cancelled the old card and issued me another. I'm being proactive in this. I dislike thieves on principle so no more point of sale transactions with my personal card. Paying through PayPal only from now on.
I will keep a vintage look on the gauges, but I want actual functionality from instruments. It can have both...as you said I like the character of old. I really like the Henderson, Excesior and Indian fours. All with the same heritage just different companies extending the Ace production. Take your pick all are winners.
Thanks for the video!
Rick C.
After dealing with my cell provider yesterday, not helpful at all, I decided to close my account with them and find a new provider. My cell is several years old, so I purchased a new one. My bank cancelled the old card and issued me another. I'm being proactive in this. I dislike thieves on principle so no more point of sale transactions with my personal card. Paying through PayPal only from now on.
I will keep a vintage look on the gauges, but I want actual functionality from instruments. It can have both...as you said I like the character of old. I really like the Henderson, Excesior and Indian fours. All with the same heritage just different companies extending the Ace production. Take your pick all are winners.
Thanks for the video!
Rick C.