Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

Discussion in 'Board Trackers and Vintage Motorized Bicycles' started by indian22, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Yes thanks guys I'm quite familiar with Dan's work though I've never done any business with him.

    Work on the F head electric is progressing well. I've cut all the major case plates and decided to jack shaft with reduction gearing using an 11 t on engine output to 22 t input to reduction drive stepped down to 11tooth to a 38 tooth, giving a total gearing of 6.91 with 26" tires. At 4,5000 rpm this calculates 50 mph....theoretically, if the power and conditions are perfect. With the 2.33 hp e-motor not likely. I'd think that top speed of 40 mph would be more probable, about like a decent running (stock) CG 2 cycle can attain with a 44 tooth final on 26" tires. Using a 44 tooth sprocket final cog on the electric should easily do 40 mph (44 mph being possible) @ 4500. I'd think the 2000 watt motor powerful enough to make 40mph. At any rate these speeds are fine for clincher tires like the early moto cycles used though I'll ride on 26" rather than the 28" of the early bikes.

    I'm planning to build the jack shaft integral with the motor housing, rather than use the bottom bracket for the reduction drive. I'll conceal the reduction drive components in the Magneto case and it's drive housing with motor outputs all running down the left side (opposite the pedal drive train) since this F motor type has the mag aft of the engine & takes up frame space anyway I thought it less cluttering to use the cases to conceal the workings of the drive in these cases and the completed motor a more stable mounting platform than the tube frame mounting the pure jack shaft. Before any think I'm faulting the bottom bracket reduction gear setup; stand down and at ease. I've built two bikes using the bottom bracket for reduction & chain alignment...they work super. With the electric I want to keep all the drive components in one enclosure, just because I can while using components I have in hand...simple as that nothing to do with which is inferior or better...no controversy.

    I don't have any idea how long it will take to finish the motor housing and drive as I'm sure I can keep finding ways to make this more difficult than it has to be in order to complete.

    I hope all had a joyous and safe Thanksgiving!

    Rick C.
     
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  2. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you didn't waste a Holiday Steve, I am eagerly waiting to see your ideas fleshed out.
    Tom
     
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  3. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Me too Tom. If I do an Indian style power plus engine I think I'll scale down some to be more readily adapted to a frame already in production, but also keeping it real including magneto forward. The inclusion of a magneto that looks realistic on either the HD or Indian requires quite a bit of frame space fore and aft, though a realistic side valve engine, like the power plus, won't require as much vertical frame space. \

    At any rate I've an operational motor/drive train to complete first then I'll get serious about a frame to fit it to. As I began this post with scaling decisions for a possible future motor case I'll end on a high note for this one being close to full scale though it poses more problems fitting to a frame. The original board bikes with 1000 cc V-twins and bare bicycle "bones" overwhelmed the frame with motor, to the point of being appearing a " Big Daddy Roth" cartoon vehicle. The engine draws the eye into the bike and the rest of the bike is there as support. Power on wheels quite simply, though designed to be ridden by wide eyed demonic rats....blame it on the 60's.

    Rick C.
     
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  4. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    Wide eyed demonic rats... now yer talking Rick!
    I'll throw another name at you though I am sure you know it Helmut in Aridzona.
    Still the lightest chassis will win the race. Speaking of that, Jeff Wolf is in that league.
    Not strictly on topic, but while waiting for Mona's chemo treatment today I picked up Car& Driver for lack of variety.
    The write up of Porsche' 4 seat EV reads like Tesla has been out classed. I suspect some active reverse engineering came into play.
    https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche/taycan
    Tom
     
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  5. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Big Daddy had it goin' on!

    Yes I greatly admire their work Tom. I'll kick the frame can a bit down the road though at this point I'm thinking my engine and drive will require a purpose built frame. I have close to 60 feet of one inch .090 DOM heavy wall tube stored and a mandrel bender I can use, though I'd not planned to build another bike frame myself. Time is the problem and I'd rather spend money than time at this point on a frame and use my time on other activities that I find more interesting. Lacing wheels and building frames are two of my least favorite things to do, been there done that many times, but will if I must.

    I also read that article and If anyone can compete with Tesla at high performance & price it's Porsche and VW. It seems the world marketplace has decided it's easier, cheaper and quicker to reverse engineer quality than to develop it.

    The external overhead valve parts & exhaust manifolds are cut out and now undergoing final shaping before assembly. I haven't started building the carb yet.

    I've held off on assembling the motor cases while deciding a frame type, but thinking I'll use the Keystone-Marion motor mount rather than a loop frame to gain engine space while lowering the engine & bikes center of gravity. Pedal bracket moved aft of the seat tube and more room up top for the fake fuel tanks larger battery enclosure. 53" wheelbase & 135mm drop out axle width.

    Rick C.
     
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  6. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    Your last paragraph pretty much tells all Rick, 53" wheelbase & 135mm drop out axle width will maximize design and physical parameters. It's numbers like this that future builders will be glad to know. I sure didn't know what the correct dropout span was supposed to be on my Flyer until Pat tipped me off 117mm and made my build doable.
    Tom
     
    #1946 Tom from Rubicon, Dec 4, 2019 at 9:29 PM
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 7:50 PM
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  7. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Tom the frame for my Simplex was built from scratch, other than using a re-enforced Simplex steering head, I used one inch Dom .090" tubing, lengthened to 53" wheel base and 140 mm rear drops. All frame tubing is one inch & it's a duplex frame. The two main frame tubes are continuous loops & are welded together at one spot the axle drop plates. The two tubes are attached to a 1/4" motor mount plate that's 12" long & the gas tank that's 1/8" thick steel is cross welded to the top tubes. And that's why I know it has the strength to carry a sidecar and is wide enough to mount moped Dot hubs, wheels and tires, if I ever decide to run it on the highway legally.

    That's the last bike frame I hope to ever build. The leaf spring girder fork I built later and my sidecar for it is far from complete to date so it's been & is a fun project that I want to get back to soon.

    Rick C..
     
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  8. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Bought a 3,000 watt 72 v. motor with 60 amp controller last night...Craig's list so cheap I couldn't pass it up. New in box, but bent motor mount in shipping. I don't even require the motor mount so we will see. Physical dimensions are really close to identical to my 2,000 watt motor, but my design will easily accept much larger motors. 4hp at 6,000 rpm on 72 volt will be kinda' sporty. It's load test rated at 440 lbs. If the 3K watt motor works I'll use the 2 K in the Simplex sidecar for reverse as originally planned. I was going to need an extra motor eventually to complete both projects.

    Great weather here today so need to get a bunch of work completed.

    Rick C.
     
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  9. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    3,000 watt 72 v. motor with 60 amp controller.
    Lighting the tire on a quarter mile drag strip.
    I once built not designed a power MOSFET 48v E-car controller. Pulsed power delivery was the plan to maximize charge delivery. Never made it past prototype. I worked for a MIT engineer.
    It is commendable Rick, that you state the full physical parameters of your Simplex build.
    Enquiring minds need to know.
    Tom
     
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  10. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Tom. I've a sister & brother in law both MIT grads & now department heads...doctorates in electrical engineering and she also has another doctorate in micro biology. Fine school. A lot of fine ideas that actually work very well never get out of the prototype stage though prototype performance tests prove remarkable. As long as the checks cashed & base line requirements were exceeded I didn't let it bother me...just business. One of the reasons I never went into production work, but stuck with prototype development was the huge number of human variables involved in the entire process of production and sales . Concept, design, fabrication and testing I could control in house, though people problems certainly existed they were quite manageable. The rest of the process from attracting investors, long term banking arrangements, marketing, legal protection and human resources; just didn't intrigue me and I let others make that commitment and reap the rewards for their efforts or go bust in the process.

    I knew you had some electronic skills to go along with impressive tool and die experience from your prior posts, but it's good to learn more fully your personal parameters as well Tom.

    Rick C.
     
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  11. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Exhaust ports are completed and I'm making progress on the intake rockers and pushrod assemblies. Which leaves the fake Schebler carb as the major missing upper cylinder component. Work on the round crank cases, with cylinders attached will require cutting the "support plate wings" off the cylinder base plate first. I'll be remove the cylinders for much of the case work, but once I return the cases to vertical I'll need to modify a motor support base to keep the round and narrow case from rolling off and tipping over during assembly and bench testing with the cylinders attached. The carb can wait a bit as can completing the intake components. All the case plates are cut and ready, but not yet laid out for drilling & minor milling operations.

    It will happen just takes me awhile.

    I enlarged an ebay photo that some of you have already seen & commented on of a fake V-twin electric (not for sale) mounted in a loop frame. Other than the output gear being on the same side as the partially finished valve train, which is incorrect, of this flat head/side valve stle motor case; the partially completed motor looks good in the frame...fills it up, as did the originals and that's what I'm interested in doing while using better quality components than those offered for sale in this offering.

    Rick C.


    Electric twin side view.jpg electric v-twin exhaust.jpg

    replica electric twin.png
     
    #1951 indian22, Dec 6, 2019 at 6:13 PM
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2019 at 6:26 PM
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  12. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    Rick, the Masters degree Electrical Engineer I worked for Richard Marsh, was on the team at MIT that built ENIAC.
    Tom
     
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  13. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    Nice set of jugs Rick, mind you I like mine mammalian. But those will top the motor housing.most convincibly.
    Tom
     
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  14. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Gad zooks Tom baby binary processing on a gargantuan scale that initially benefitted mankind through improved air conditioning technology developed by necessity to cool the early beasts....

    Thanks be for brass caps to carry the theme to the next level Tom to this point they're all natural, though greatly enhanced, no silicon required.

    Rick C.
     
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  15. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    I'll trim & polish the rockers later. Carb probably last. I'll remove the cylinders to work on the bottom end that's next

    3K direct drive motor & controller came in & works fine under no load. Motor mount badly bent on one side, but no damage to case or shaft. Should be fine.

    The "Comeback Motors" red Indian Daytona replica arrived last week in Dallas. My company guy said he heard the CEO had a custom made display stand ready for it in his office.

    Rick C.

    V-twin valve rockers.jpg v-twin side plates.jpg

     
    #1955 indian22, Dec 9, 2019 at 7:56 AM
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019 at 8:03 AM
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  16. curtisfox

    curtisfox Well-Known Member

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    WOW! looking good Rick, like were it's going, should end up KOOOOL!....Curt
     
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  17. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    In order to save space, keep things really clean & better utilize the motor case I'll mount the gear reduction jack shaft bearing assembly inside the crank case plates. All three of the output and reduction primary drive sprockets will be under case cover as well, along with the primary chain spring tension device.

    Photos show just the basic motor case plates. It's kinda' difficult to look past the ugly while your building stuff. It usually comes together eventually.

    Rick C.

    e-motor & jack shaft case.jpg jack shaft case mounted.jpg
     
    #1957 indian22, Dec 9, 2019 at 6:27 PM
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2019 at 6:32 PM
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  18. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    I'm seeing it.
    Tom
     
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