Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Lifan engine mounted to base for break in. It's running in the photo. I'll run it for 15 to 20 minutes at a time over the next two weeks and call it a good motor or not. Then I can pull the sheet metal off it & start modifications. At that point I assume warranty was just voided.

Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Myself, I think it's highly unfair, so long as you return all the parts in the box, that they would question the return of your money.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Steve I'm not sure how long I've had the other Lifan, two years? Both started right from the box and the first went through my lite 2 hr. test as well. I'll probably mount one with a 3-D clutch and test. This requires the 5/8" output shaft receive a 3/16" keyed 3/4" bushing to mount the 3/4" bore 3D clutch. I am not planning on much power upgrade, but exhaust, carb, air cleaner and governor changes along with the removal of shroud, pull start and gas tank & retro/age the engine block & valve cover. I'm sure others have used this engine for bicycle use but I don't recall seeing a build thread involving this 97.7 cc model from Lifan unless the 100 cc Harbor Freight was a Lifan? Anyway as advertised and marked power varies one says 2.5 hp and another 3 hp...not power houses for certain, but 18 pounds light and a small footprint in a true vertical from the box....less than one foot in height, stripped of it's fuel tank & narrow without fan/pull start shroud. Also the starboard exhaust port & tight stock carb placement allows simplified plumbing and mounting compared to the China girl layout. Lastly the vibration of this motor is a fraction of the two strokes.

This post will not be an ongoing topic of the Old guys thread. I will however briefly share my results and thoughts on both this Lifan engine and 3D clutch after testing. Your reply's as always are appreciated & requested on this or any other topic entertained.

Sidecar parts are marked shipped and estimated to be in hand midweek next. I'm jazzed!

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I've been working on suspension setup for the torsion axle using the electric drive and think I'm making some progress on that front, but thought I'd best explain once again that the primary forward drive will be handled by the bike engine. The wheel motor is for 100 % of the reverse maneuvers & for emergency use at very low speeds and covering only the distances required to a secure parking area. It should also prove useful to move the bike around without starting the bike engine & without manual pushing. Once the bike and rig are setup with the best toe in of the car and with the bike leaning slightly left of vertical for the best handling manners under bike power; any attempt to drive the entire rig forward at speeds much above a walk with just the outside wheel powering the effort will be a strenuous work to control. The car wheel will fight such bike and rig alignments vigorously. Don't think for a moment that I've ever felt this would somehow be a true hybrid rig for the road it is purely intended to replace the manual effort of trying to position the rig in tight quarters. It should actually handle a pig while covering ground at more than a snails pace & inflicting much scrub of the rubber as well. No free lunch here!

Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

Silverbear used a 99cc predator on the canoe sidecar build. The photos I posted of it were when we were mocking it up. We made a frame from angle iron bed frames so it could be removed quickly if need be or he wanted a bike with out the sidecar.
He found the motor was some what under powered and was planning on a 212cc replacement.

I think they would be a nice alternative for a China girl without the questionable quality of a lot of them.

Side car parts are shipped. Let the awesomeness of the build begin.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

When I had the hub motor on the Monark's sidecar I found it was trying to turn into the bike as it went forward. As if the sidecar was trying to turn in a circle using the bike as a pivot point. It may well have been OK if I could have pedaled the bike to get it going and then opened up the throttle to engage the hub motor but the old fellas legs won't have any part of it.

Looking back at it I should have put a front hub motor on the bike as well as the sidecar wheel and had a throttle on each side of the handlebars. One for each wheel with the front wheel leading off and the side car wheel joining in when the rig was moving. Two 1000w motors and two 52v batteries and the Lifan 5speed?
One can only ponder the wonderfulness of it all.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Thanks Steve I knew I'd read that information somewhere & forgot you guys used the 99 cc. Lifan lists 97.9cc why don't they just say 100cc and call it good? Is it the same engine?

Yes I'm ready for parts, but been drawing up a torsion spring design that will mount both the motor & wheel axle on the torsion spring arm, this would keep the chain from going slack during suspension compression, as it would if the motor was mounted directly to the frame. It also enables the use of a very straight & compact chain line. The electric motor would be kept out of the way & concealed from sight from the side.. I know that combined weight of the motor, tire & bike wheel will be far less than the weight of the hub, wheel & automotive tire that the torsion spring was designed for. Of course a spring tension device mounted on the frame would also work to keep tension on the spring but would be of no other benefit.

Rick C,

 

[fasteddy]

You would think that they would just call it a 100cc wouldn't you. I don't know if it's the same engine Rick. I like the idea of the torsion suspension. Having the motor mounted to it will take care of any problems.

This will be an interesting innovation.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

When I had the hub motor on the Monark's sidecar I found it was trying to turn into the bike as it went forward. As if the sidecar was trying to turn in a circle using the bike as a pivot point. It may well have been OK if I could have pedaled the bike to get it going and then opened up the throttle to engage the hub motor but the old fellas legs won't have any part of it.

Looking back at it I should have put a front hub motor on the bike as well as the sidecar wheel and had a throttle on each side of the handlebars. One for each wheel with the front wheel leading off and the side car wheel joining in when the rig was moving. Two 1000w motors and two 52v batteries and the Lifan 5speed?
One can only ponder the wonderfulness of it all.

Steve.

That's exactly what I expect the Simplex rig to do under outside wheel power only, even without the frame and bike setup previously described. Now I would expect that the 350 lb. weight of the rig plus rider and passenger would lessen this effect, but to what degree I know not. This torque is very tiring when prolonged. Operators of high output boats feel this greatly in straight line running with directional props, hard to hold a heading, but with counter rotating props this torque is balanced and fighting prop torque is eliminated.

Yes the addition of a front wheel hub matched to the outrigger wheel would indeed combat torque as would running the 125cc engine, to operate as a true hybrid with two electrics and one gas motor the two dc motors would need to be exactly matched as you said and the gear reductions of each would also need to be matched. As to the two throttles I agree, but I'd think the elegant solution would lie in a single throttle mapped through an advanced controller, but I'd have to leave that to some 12 yr. old to figure out.

Rick C,

 

[indian22]

You would think that they would just call it a 100cc wouldn't you. I don't know if it's the same engine Rick. I like the idea of the torsion suspension. Having the motor mounted to it will take care of any problems.

This will be an interesting innovation.

Steve.

Thanks Steve the setup does add un sprung weight, but since this is to be a car conducted, hopefully at sedate speeds, I'm not terribly concerned. I know the torsion axle is more than robust enough to handle it. I'm thinking a low mounting arm position for the motor. The axle lever itself will be elongated to raise the axle another 10 inches to allow my frame to ground clearance to be minimal. Wheel axle height will be close to the completed body height. A very low slung car. For a very low slung bike. Photos can't convey how low the overall height of the Simplex is & that is one of the reactions that people who stand next to it for the first time express. My other builds seem to tower over the Simplex. It appears even lower because it is also quite long. I want the car to match up with the bikes dimensions to complement the very racy look.

 

[indian22]

Quick first mockup of the sidecar frame. Rough work but clearly showed me I am indeed too narrow for all to function with the body in place (30" wide x 16" height, not shown) and my switch to torsion spring with motor attached to the spring axle lever & wheel mounted. I'll add 8" in width to the frame bringing the total width of the car to bike frame to 4 feet. I also decided to raise the frame height by 3" to allow the torsion axle to mount under the frame. That means the axle and dc motor mount plate will measure approximately 8" higher than the original axle mount position and the motor will mount on the same plate, but as close to the frame as possible.

The two half leaf springs will measure 11" & bolt up inside the frame & underneath. I think that mock ups are quite useful during builds regardless of how unsophisticated they might be.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Mock up

 

[curtisfox]

Looks good so far, like it a lot.............Curt

 

[fasteddy]

Superior set up Rick.

Steve.

 

[Ludwig II]

We found on the racers that there was a minimum size to fit everybody in. There are minimoto sidecars racing, and 6 exhausting laps is as much as the crews can stand with them being so cramped. We used to do 30 minute races and were able to walk afterwards. The dimensions do impose themselves on you.

 

[indian22]

Thanks guys.

Ludwig I've been turning this in my mind & noted the tiny dimensions of these racers, marveled that the crew could long endure , especially the Isle TT. I'd like the small look yet provide as much room as possible.

Heritage sidecars lists: car length-90", width 40",24" hip, 48" leg, track 52"-56", car height 40", ground clearance 6", car weight200 lbs. & load capacity 300 lb. With this in mind my car will vary from these specs not greatly in most but noting these areas: car width 10" narrower (30"), car height 16" lower ( 24"), track 4" narrower (48"), car length 6" shorter (84"), load capacity 80 lbs. less (220 lbs.) & car weight 25 lbs. lighter 175 lbs.

I took some time with a kayak on local display and entry is actually quite easy. The opening on the kayak is really quite large & the step up is not daunting in the least, but assist bars fore and aft would be a big asset for mounting & dismount; protecting the body from receiving the force of the arms assisting the riders entry & exit.

Using the pedicab spec tires on the bike has always been in mind as well, being daily loaded with driver and two passengers on the rough streets of New Orleans they are proven as are the D.O.T wheel and tire on the car.

Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

I'm the baldy with the helmet, this was in about 2002. We actually climbed about more than conventional road race passengers. The pilot is John Cooper, who is my accomplice these days in making the El Shambolico cyclemotor. That reminds me, I need to go over there and actually do something.

1991 I think, at Blyton, known to all who visited as What's The Smell. They had a maggot ranch there. Steve Lorriman in the driving seat, he was an animal.

 

[indian22]

Wow now that's racing!

 

[curtisfox]

LOL! How many seat of the pants did you wear out.........Curt

 

[Ludwig II]

Somthing to know about, I think I mentioned it before, on 202 the chassis was minimalist but it didn't twist at the headstock because of that long tube going to the wheel side of the sidecar acting as a lever. John's outfit didn't twist because of that flat plate underneath the headstock. Even driven gently, the loading in that area is substantial. Other builders/owners who didn't consider it in the construction phase ended up with lots of ugly gussets and brackets around.

ps

Those were the days of the C90 based racing, when we did 6 10 lap races and then a 1 hour. 1 hour flinging yourself around on the platform identifies the fit and the flabby, I could jump off and run when young men half my age were on their knees gasping for air. I can't do it now, but it's a singularly smug memory