Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

Discussion in 'Board Trackers and Vintage Motorized Bicycles' started by indian22, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. MEASURE TWICE

    MEASURE TWICE Well-Known Member

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  2. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Tom with slag you drag. When you push with stick or flux core it just fills the run with inclusions and holes & things can really look ugly cause they are. Penetration isn't a problem with flux just slow down and remember to keep the heat more on the thickest metal. Flux guns for structural welding actually have aluminum heat shield to protect the welders gloved hand from the heat, flux burns hotter than MIG gas welding. A lot of "seldom" welders try to use .035" wire on sheet metal and blow holes the size of dimes in the thin stuff .023 & .030 wire is best on 1/8" or less steel sheet. Don't buy cheap flux or MIG wire, it's hard to bake good cookies using pig crap as batter! If you don't get good penetration travel speed is too fast and or you've got your wire feed set too slow on a inexpensive machine. Things like bead profile concave, convex and flat, to simplify, are factors of gun angle and remember there are two angles involved this is true with any weld process, TIG, stick or MIG with gas, flux or a combination of the last two.

    Flux wire welding is typically associated with inexpensive no gas wire feeders, but the reality is flux core can be run in any MIG machine with a roller change coupled with a change in machine polarity in just a few minutes. Flux runs much better in these high dollar wire feeders...a good welder starts to get great results with the best equipment, yet an inexperienced welders lack of skill can't be covered up by spending more on equipment.

    On vertical down drag the wire actually helps support the puddle and keeps it from drooping. I run down hill pulling on wire gas as well for the same propping up effect, but run vertical push with gas as well because there's no flux to contaminate.

    Like most welders I've found situations where I've broken these rules, but 95% of the time they produce the best results, but on blueprint jobs breaking rules can get a guy fired in a hurry.

    I do hope some of this helps as I don't want to seem as if I'm talking down to anyone.

    The reason for these posts aren't to glorify the use of flux core wire or stick, rather it's to address what many have at home to use occasionally and I've seen that many struggle in their occasional use. I have one, $150. 220v. 180 amp with poor duty cycle, just to tack with; as the Dr. said I was finished with welding for my health's sake. His instructions were actually no welding at all. My bad!

    Rick C.

    Rick C.
     
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  3. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Just came through MT and yes flux burns deep on the pull IF your pull angle isn't too flat, the greater the angle the deeper the penetration with all other metrics the same. Deposition will pile up with the higher drag angle while pulling flat wile result in not only less penetration but a very flat thin bead. Narrow bead is greatly tied to a welders weave pattern.

    Welding thin stuff here's where art comes into play big time. Practice on thin! That said Gas MIG is superior to flux on really thin steel, but since we're talking flux wire here. I'll try for some encouraging advice. Be patient with yourself & don't give up after a few burn throughs it happens to everyone. Use 16 ga. to practice on, not super thin but you will still probably burn through butt joints using it at the start. Use .023 or .030 wire. Practice on really clean steel, shiny steel no paint or mill scale ,rust etc., adjust wire feed and speed to bottom third of the scale and low range. Don't practice on joints, just run beads a couple of inches on the flat steel (you won't burn though this at low amps) then chip and brush then examine closely looking for holes and slag in crevasses. adjust wire speed up and down a little at a time and repeat at the next highest range. Don't just drag the wire in a straight line but practice weaving the tip try making a super small figure 8 with the tip & then try to weave using a cursive small letter e motion. vary the speed of the drag as you weave & note how it effects the bead. Make lots of 2" long beads any longer and you just use up wire and sheet metal. Once you start getting decent beads on flat metal move up to welding lap joint, angles and butt joints. and repeat. Don't waste metal flip the plate over and use the backside for practice.

    There's a technique to chipping slag that's wrist and light grip on the hammer. One or two taps on a good weld will do it and little or no brushing required. The weld will be very shiny also Get rid of the gas shield nozzle, but realize the tip will weld to metal it contacts. That melted drop of metal on the wire tip isn't very conductive. Trim it off to get good starts. I use about 3/4" of wire stick out to start and adjust in or out while running a bead. MT I'll address tacking here as well as short stitching with flux core. That's one way to get it done and on sheet, with cooling to prevent warp is typically done with tacks and maybe 1/2" stitch or even less, with cooling time spent on additional tacks and brushing, don't try to weld through slag or flux residue. Books have been written about sheet metal welding methodology, so warp is problematical.

    Welding with flux, wire or stick, is dangerous read and understand the dangers to yourself and others, they are many. I'm certain both Miller and Lincoln have many fine tutorials MT it is a complex topic for such a basic skill.

    Rick C.
     
    #2123 indian22, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
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  4. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Guys wire feed welders feed wire, and it's important they do so smoothly & reliably. One of the great shortcomings of the inexpensive Chinese wire feeders is that the motor and drive rollers aren't nearly up to par with the high quality wire feeders, but they work quite well and last longer if the wire feed is adjusted properly. This is a simple and quick setup that becomes intuitive after a couple of tries. Before taking the factory wrap off the new spool and I suggest starting with one pound spools and yes there is a reason for this, explain later. Make sure the machine is both off and unplugged before starting. Check to see that the wire drive roller setup is the same size as the wire you're installing. There are two grooves in the wire drive roller the wider of the two is for .035 or metric equivalent & the size should be stamped on both sides of the roller...you can see the difference. Here's a hinky detail, one groove may be cross hatched rather than smooth inside the groove, this is the flux core groove for all wire sizes. The problem is it usually only works well with one or two sizes of wire...go figure. The drive roller just pulls off it's axle after the retaining nut is removed and then reinstalled with the best option groove lined up with the liner and wire clamp mech. This clamp mech is spring loaded and releases when you gently pull up the adjustment knob and gently swivel the knob towards yourself. This takes the drive pressure off the roller and allows you to pull any wire left in the machine to be pulled out of the liner, always remove wire from the tip end with pliers and machine off. Now open the fresh wire packaging being very careful to not birds nest the spool as you mount the wire to the machine, it's a two hand operation YOU'LL DISCOVER AFTER YOU MESS UP AND HAVE TO REWIND many feet of wire. Wire feeds off the top of the installed spool and lines up best this way, not like toilet tissue, it really matters how the spool is installed. The wire end should be a really clean cut and the first foot or so of wire should be straightened since it wants to curl back to the shape of the roll it's been stored on. A kinked wire can catch on the liner and if it does you'll have to hand wind the wire back out and do it right. The gun liner should be straight and not curled along it's length as well and for the same reason. After you get a couple of feet of wire in the liner secure the line clamp on the wire and make sure the spool nut has just enough pressure to keep the spool on the machine and spool freely, no resistance. Wire tension is now controlled only by the amount of tension placed on the wire tension roller to drive mech. With a fresh tip of proper size installed for flux core, which can be the exact size of the wire used, but often flux core runs better with next size up tip. .030 may run better with .035 tip installed, Wire brand, tips and machines vary. It's trial and error; learn what works and stay with it. Plug the machine in & turn on. now using the gun trigger feed the wire at low speed through the liner till the wire it clears the tip, if the wire hangs up at the tip turn the machine off and remove the tip, turn back on and use the machine to feed the wire clear of the liner just enough to, after turning off the machine, install the wire through the tip and screw the tip back onto the gun diffuser assembly. At this point you should be able to pull the wire with just a few ponds of pressure through the tip using pliers. If it's too easy or too hard to pull the wire then your drive clamp pressure needs adjusting, less pressure on the roller and the machine slips on the wire and performance will be crappy or it won't feed at all. Too much pressure will eventually burn out the drive motor. Adjustment is made with the knob on the drive clamp. Several ways to test drive pressure the way I described has served me well over several decades of use, but the others work as well or better?

    Setup is critical to good welding. Use good wire and tips. If you weld often or have a big job buy good wire on the 5 lb. spool; it works great on these small machines and saves a lot of money per pound, but if you only have use for a welder on rare occasions go one pound, because old wire mig or flux goes bad with time and should be replaced...high humidity areas are especially bad as are shops where heat is used when occupied, but turned off when you leave. If you cover your machine use a cover that can breathe. Also tips that look good after running a good amount of wire may not be. Out of the blue, erratic welding is quite often due to a bad tip, or a poor work clamp connection or both combined. Address these first before trying to rebuild or adjust everything. Make sure the machine is setup correctly has the correct, fresh consumables in place then the welder only has himself to look at when welds are of less than decent quality, use good technique pull wire with flux in all positions, on all joints and work clean on joints that have appropriate fit ups and spacing. The easiest position to weld in is comfortable and most commonly flat and with great lighting. It's quite uncomfortable to weld upside down and in the dark, though it's well done by some pros, but even the best do better under great conditions so set up both machine and yourself for success every time you prepare to strike an arc.

    This would be a full 40 hrs. of training in the shop for newbies under drill instructor supervision and the pressure of your first pay check being also ones final pay check, so be patient with this.

    Rick C.
     
  5. FOG

    FOG Well-Known Member

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    I've started using my old "nod your head" helmet again because I found a #7 lens for it versus the original #9. All I've done with it so far is some upside down screwy angle short welds on the back of my motorcycle so I have to say the juries still out.

    Next up for welding is refitting the x-pipe on my bicycle. That'll be a better test. It's sheet metal.
     
  6. PeteMcP

    PeteMcP Well-Known Member

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    Rick,
    I bet there are umpteen folks who have splashed out on a spool welder thinking one day they'll end up welding as good as a pro - then, after a couple of miserable fails, the tool ends up gathering dust back in its box. As you correctly point out, the key to mastering any process is practice. Then more practice. That said, my spool welder came with little in the way of helpful instructions - so your last few posts sharing your experience are worth archiving and should be mandatory for would-be novice welders. I'm a self taught infrequent welder - so thanks for sharing.

    Side note: Back in the day, when Jen and I attended many model train shows selling our photo-etched brass train kits worldwide each year, I made a point of offering hands-on soldering clinics where six guys (and sometimes gals too) at a time could sit down with a soldering iron and learn how to successfully join brass or nickel silver kit parts together without resorting to using glue. Most of these 'students' owned a soldering iron and had plugged it in a couple of times, using it in conjunction with flux-cored solder, failing miserably to join photo-etched brass kit parts together. Everyone had tried soldering like this and recounted how they'd inevitably ended up chasing a run-away ball of molten solder across the surface of the workpiece like some errant bead of mercury. Failure to master the soldering process more often than not resulted in the iron being stashed aside never to be used again. To most of my soldering clinic 'students', the addition of liquid or paste-type flux to the process was like using some kind of magic potion. I probably taught hundreds of model railroaders the basics of neat soldering over the years - the upside being they all invariably went straight from these soldering clinics to our sales booth and purchased kits from my wife Jen.
     
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  7. Tom from Rubicon

    Tom from Rubicon Well-Known Member

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    Copper back up on thin steel is a must.
    MT your Miller link contradicts our company's certified welder. Guess what the rest of the welders are? :)
    Pulling makes sense as you are always feeding into hot steel instead of cold pushing. At work we have miller MIG's and in my shop so far just a 120V flux core.
    Tom
     
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  8. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Yep Tom copper backers work great on thin steel when you have access to the back side of the steel.

    MIG is a whole topic by itself and I'm sure YouTube has tons of how to videos to soak up and learn.

    I had access to the tube bender today and bent a few exhaust stubs from 1.5" tube, of varying radius, to test fit. The rear tube has to clear the Mag drive cover plates back side & frame/pedal components as well. So I needed the tubes in place to establish the clearance required. The front exhaust isn't a problem.

    Rick C.
     
    #2128 indian22, Feb 11, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2020
  9. MEASURE TWICE

    MEASURE TWICE Well-Known Member

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    I had not so good results to start with using the MIG and the gas setup 75 25. What it was I was not able to help was where the outlet was in a rented space. Extension cord too long bad. Next a new Generator I plug in directly when I was outdoors in calm wind with the Hobart 130 and still was not good. A few years later when I used it again I had changed out the carb on the generator and no fuel starvation when I hit the trigger. Oh ^#%$^*& was there a difference! My bike has OK welds, but now I need after 2 years to adjust valves again and old Briggs Flat Head you grind the valve stem tip to set the gap. Laborious and time consuming. Keeping occupied, but maybe a mfg dirt bike for OHV fun. Not Over Head Valve, Off Highway Vehicle, OK maybe both.
     
  10. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    I love me some laborious projects on old stuff MT, side valve Briggs, Clinton etc. remind me of my youth & my first real hotrod engine rebuild and "soup up" up on a tired Cushman Eagle 8hp side valve. Supervised by Mr. Knight in his well equipped small motor shop. Talk about a patient and kind man who let me do it all in his shop with his tools 13 year old kid talk about liability issues and child endangerment! Thank God I grew up in that age and not this one. I actually got to learn stuff before 21 and was making a man's wages at 14. Bored thirty thou' over, valves, milled head, Dellorto moped carb, piston, bearings and installed a Isky re-grind race cam & spring set purchased from Honest Charley's race shop! I had started learning things. That Eagle flew.

    MT the MIG & TIG processes are both rather helpless in the wind, but are superior in the shop. Outdoors the stick and wire flux are the only reasonable choices for day in day out exposure to the elements where production & quality rules. Those who say they daily used a MIG in field work will lie to you about other things as well. Oil field/pipeline work, construction projects involving red iron, ship building etc. flux shield, stick & wire, rule and perfect tested welds are monitored and tested in environmentally and safety obsessed environment. Most certified plant or floor welders would spend most of their first week in the field grinding and re-welding their screwups under supervision till they learned to really run flux. I know cause I did. Stick weld all day standing in water while welding 12" small diameter gas pipe lines and I promise you won't feel ashamed to cash that weeks paycheck!

    Copper backers on thin tube are really no help either, but thin steel backer tubes with just a bit of root exposure makes joining two thin tubes easier with flux wire or any weld process the addition of a couple of plug welds is just insurance for those new to the technique. Master plate welding first, all joint types and in all positions first, including overhead and then learn to weld tube.

    I really miss welding.

    Rick C.
     
  11. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Pete I've spent way much time looking for proper appearing compression springs for the exposed look valve train and finally found four new old stock springs that just might fill the build. I'll give 'em a go & see if they suit.

    I've decided to refer to this bike as the Wylder Sportsman and the motor a Bradfield Co. all names of significance to me.

    Rick C.
     
  12. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    MT while 75/25 mix is by far the favorite for mig process. 100% CO2 is less expensive, though it doesn't finish quite as clean as the mix, it has two nice benefits it cools the torch better and allows you to dig into high amp use longer. Building bikes doesn't require high amps, but other welding tasks do and if you have a gas welder that has low amp rating this can allow you to tackle heavier jobs and finish them quicker and at less cost. Most of the under 200 amp mig welders have really light duty torches and small gauge, really short work cables and flimsy sheet metal work clamps. I replace these with 15 feet minimum of heavy gauge (#1 or 0) cable and a pure copper work clamp. This adds close to a hundred bucks to the cost of a welder and along with a "real" gas combination flow meter and quality hose with appropriate connectors can easily cost as much, or more, than many import mig welders. The torch on all these machines are easily the worst feature on these import welders, however it's not recommended that you buy a longer torch cable, cause the machines drive is small and will struggle to push more wire through a much longer liner. The torch itself can be replace with an upgrade, if your handy. The American labeled small amp machines Miller, Lincoln and their associate brands Hobart etc. have much better torch, cable clamp and flow meter etc. and are not what I've been describing. Even their little 140 amp machines come ready to weld, though I think they too could use and support longer torch and ground cables.

    The Chinese welders I sold in the past (mig, tig, stick/flux wire & plasma cutters) were really quite good and affordably priced, with the exceptions I mentioned and held up well in home shop use but they wouldn't last long in a production shop with a lot of use. I also sold Miller and, at one time Lincoln, so I had my bases covered selling the right equipment into the correct environment, returns were minimal. Easy sales when you could walk out on the shop floor with a customer and he could use or watch the machine in use and see the results!

    Rick C.
     
  13. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Seems I spend an inordinate amount of time on scrounging parts from the internet and in my storage spaces as well. Then there is the matter of learning things about e tech. The mystery is entertaining & enlightening. Dealing with vendors that have less knowledge of what they're selling than they have of quantum mechanics requires time & much patience. Then there are the shipping delays, but I'm not complaining because these things often work for good and are a part of my builds process like deciding to build my lithium packs in order to get what I want rather than settle what someone wants to sell me. I'll also save some money but that's not the deciding factor. I'll get what I want!

    Pete the valve train springs came in & they really suit me. So thanks for the input the time spent finding them was worth it. Length, OD, IO diameter and wire gauge are perfect & I'm hoping to get them mounted soon. Most of the bits missing should be here in a few days. Also the cloth covered spark leads look fantastic as well. Briggs glass sediment bowl is proportionally correct, no measurements by the seller, I just took a chance. All details that help make the motor believable. Copper fuel and oil lines with brass fittings will help sell the motor case. Plus I've an oil sight glass to install too.

    Part of my delay is due to changing my mind about power output and how to go about obtaining it in such a way as to enhance my daily riding experience and also have a certain feel of 998cc, 61 cubic inch, of V-twin power from a "Silent fellow" e-bike. I've delayed finishing the case side plates until I work out some additional details.

    Rick C.
     
    #2133 indian22, Feb 14, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  14. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    What a beautiful afternoon yesterday. Mid fifties and light winds made for progress and enjoyment.

    Photos don't quite relay how big these old V-twins were. This e-case is huge and is full scale, but a hundred pounds lighter.at 55lbs, it's actually lighter than the 125cc 5 speed motors in my Simplex and Harley Peashooter builds; they're about 12 pounds heavier. Power to weight on the 1915 racer was 33 lbs. per horse & the Police model was 45 lbs. This number I calculated with a 170 lb. rider aboard and dry bike weight of 324lbs. for the 1915 bikes.. I'm shooting for somewhere in between these two numbers for peak power on my electric. So I'll need some extra power from the electric to get there. 6.5hp or 8hp respectively. The originals were rated 11hp on the police model and 15hp on the racer. My motor, 100 amp controller and battery all needed upgrading to reach those numbers dependably. The case has room to house a 5kw motor, the big battery pack (22S) and the large controller are main design issues posed.

    Exposed springs was the right call on the overhead pushrod. Stubs shown are just fixtures, the actual exhaust stubs will be larger diameter with length to be determined. The larger motor and controller should come in Tuesday (controller) and Wednesday (motor) so case work for the next two days is just working on details. Then the great weather goes away until next weekend.
    Looking on the bright side I'm planning on a couple of two hour rides today and tomorrow on my electric mountain bike.

    Rick C.

    Harley springs 5[1455].jpg Harley rocker springs 3[1454].jpg
     
    #2134 indian22, Feb 16, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
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  15. PeteMcP

    PeteMcP Well-Known Member

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    Valve springs look perfect Rick. Now if only you could come up with a cam operated drive to make them pushrods and rockers work....
     
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  16. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Pete for the encouragement to use the naked springs on this case, unfortunately I too late realized a rather simple electrical mech to belt "idle" the OHV rockers complete assembly, of course the actual "running" speed of the rockers could simply rely on the internal jack shaft to mechanically transfer realistic motion under way. I view the accurate drive train timing at idle to be the more important of the two for entertaining the onlookers. Wear and tear on the running drive train would be an important concern that at least to me wouldn't be worth my bother though the idling motion would be quite fun and since driven from a second motor circuit could be turned off when not showing off. I'm a bit deep into the actual case fabrication at this point to do it the way I'd have liked, but the valve train as it sits could be converted pretty much as is given a bit of case space. Actually several ways to approach the design from scratch.

    Sound added, now that's another idling problem, running not quite so problematical I'd hazard. Exhaust megaphone enhancement....whop whaopp whopp….pretty easy, but compression braking baarapp not so much. I think I'll stick with the "silent fellow" theme.

    Rick C.
     
    #2136 indian22, Feb 16, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  17. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Great ride yesterday & woke with new ideas, at least to me, atop one another;awaiting my engagement.

    No deliveries today due to the ghastly commercialization of yet another "Hallmark sponsored event", of the wonderful reality of love. I'm a bit impatient to see how much of my motor case design will require retrofit changes due to the motor upgrade. I'm thinking not much, but expecting worse. Either way is ok as prototypes normally get lots of Band-aids along the way. Actually the delay allowed time to sort through some issues I've had with the magneto gear drive housing, which in my faux world of e-motor cases involves sequestered housing of motor harness rather than gear train. The actual magneto case will be the terminus of battery, controller and spark plug cables and the magneto gear drive case is the secure conduit of both air flow & those cables running to the e-motor. The magneto housing design also requires easy access for service, as do the controller housing (oil tank) and battery enclosure (fuel). The exact dimension requirements for each is yet to be determined, but once the controller is in hand I'll have that metric established. Proportions are so important in selling this bikes vintage appearance, therefore making it a believable classic.

    I'm looking at 6,300 watts, so 8.4hp output. This just using a 72 v. battery pack of 20 in series of 3500 mw LG 18650 cells configuration & running through a 100 amp battery management system, this should fit Pat's battery tank & have room for sufficient parallel connections to keep the amps up. The motors speed rating is 6,000 rpm @72v. and 70 amps. My total gear reduction running 26" tires and 44t final sprocket will allow 56 mph @ 6,000 motor speed and the grunt should be impressive. A switch to DOT rated rolling gear and drop the rear sprocket to 32t & it should really keep up with traffic! The motor is a 4kw so all these numbers are way below the motors modified potential. I'm certain the 2kw or 3kw would easily match the mid fifties speed with some mods and ratio change. The 2kw is still going to be used as a sidecar reverse motor & the 3kw will go into a flat head style e-case.

    Power to weight ratio is projected as not less than 38 lbs. per hp. While the 1915 racer was 33:1 & the Police version 45:1 if you recall.

    The controller is 72v. and 100 amps. The capacitors are capable of handling up to 120 volts. so there is good reason for it's dimensions to be rather large.

    This post is in an effort to offer full disclosure as I see it and is for entertainment purposes only. Fooling around with stuff can be dangerous etc. etc. and hot coffee may actually be hot, labeled or otherwise. Adult supervision wife, girlfriend etc. is recommended.

    Rick C.

    One additional item. Motor shaft rpm 6,000. Reduction used is 14t motor out, 38t reduction in and 14 out to a final of 44t. that's the ratio used for speed in mph.
     
    #2137 indian22, Feb 17, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2020
  18. MotoMagz

    MotoMagz Well-Known Member

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  19. Tony01

    Tony01 Well-Known Member

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    Looking great Rick. I can’t wait to see this thing.

    Building a full custom is a great way to learn how to weld flux core. Might take a few tries...
     
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  20. indian22

    indian22 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks I checked them out and added to my supplier list.

    Rick C.
     
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