Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycles

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Crazy Horse, Oct 16, 2010.

  1. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycles


    Mopeds The Other Type of Motorized Bicycle
    The Moped, usually has only a vestigial pedal drive fitted primarily to satisfy legal requirements, and suitable only for starting the engine or emergency use. Another class of motorized bicycle, popularly termed motor-assist or pedal-assist bikes have the pedals as the main form of propulsion.

    What are Mopeds and their history
    As early as 1903, motorized bicycles were being fitted with larger and heavier loop frames designed to specifically accommodate larger displacement engines, which produced higher speeds. The new frame designs soon incorporated a new riding position which no longer centered the rider over the pedals, but instead moved the rider's feet forward, where they rested on pegs or platforms. This new riding position was designed to increase rider comfort and control when using the motor for propulsion, and soon motorized bicyclists began relying on the gasoline motor for all but emergency use. Front suspension and (on some machines) rear suspension increased control at higher speeds. By 1915, some manufacturers were omitting pedal propulsion entirely, resulting in the introduction of the first true modern motorcycle.
    The early days of the bicycle and the invention that revolutionized the 20th century - the internal combustion engine. Put one of these into a coach and you have an automobile; mount it on a bicycle and presto, you have a moped ( motor + pedals ), the precursor of all motorcycles. The pedals were omnipresent on all, used both as a starter device and as emergency fallback on human power. As engine sizes got bigger and bigger, it looked as if the half-bicycle-half motorcycle mopeds were just a short-lived early development phase (like a tadpole) that progress simply left behind. History however proved it otherwise.

    The moped's evolution can be broken down into 4 distinct periods
    1. Prior to the beginning and up to the end of the first world war (WWI),
    2. The period between the two wars,
    3. The phase after WWII to the early '90s,
    4. And finally today. ( Circa 2010 )

    The definition of a moped
    Is a cross between a human-powered bicycle and an engine powered motorized cycle, equipped with a (usually) under-50cc gasoline engine (although some early models used 98cc displacements as well).
    After the end of WWI, with Europe's map completely redrawn, the short period until the Great Depression of the '30s was not conducive to the development of the moped. While motorcycle manufacturing boomed, largely fueled by the rapid re-armament needs on all sides, it seemed that the low-cubic, low-speed moped would become extinct forever.

    Except nobody factored in WWII. After the war ended in Europe, the demand for simple and economical, means of transportation skyrocketed. Nobody could afford a car, or even a motorcycle. Most factories were in ruins anyway. In Southern European countries, like Italy and France, people got around on bicycles. This was fertile breeding ground for the rebirth of the moped and also gave us the other Italian cultural icon, the scooter. Bicycle makers (most of which were also motorcycle manufacturers) all started offering small auxiliary engines for their bicycles. Motobecane, Peugeot, Ducati, Moto Guzzi all got into the act.
    The first giant leap forward was the appearance of the Velosolex, a giant among the dwarfs. If you ever rode a Velo, either with its engine running or as a bicycle, you'll appreciate how well that entire machine was constructed. Originally equipped with a 33cc engine (later to grow to 42 then 49) it had a friction roller over the front wheel. You could engage-disengage the power with a lever. You had to help sometimes going uphill, but that was part of the experience.
    The Solex became a genuine cult idol, and rightly so. Amazingly, after more than 50 years, its' still going strong.

    Mopeds & The U.S. Government!
    Prior to the 1970s, use of mopeds in the United States was relatively rare due to legal restrictions on the devices in many states. In 1972, Serge Seguin, after writing a masters thesis on the European moped, received two mopeds and a small amount of money from the French company Motobecane to promote the vehicle. After lobbying Congress on its fuel efficiency benefits, Seguin was able to get more than 30 states to devise a specific vehicle classification for mopeds. Produced by U.S. manufacturers such as AMF, mopeds had very small engines and often could not exceed 30 mph (48 km/h). What they could do, however, was run for up to 220 miles (350 km) on one tank of fuel. Because of the problems caused by the 1970s Oil / Gasoline Crisis, mopeds quickly became popular, with more than 250,000 people in the United States owning one in 1977. However, as gasoline prices eventually moved down and automobile companies devised more efficient cars, the moped's popularity and usefulness began to fade.

    Moped Legal Terms and Definitions
    Mopeds or low-powered bicycles vary from state to state and may or may not include "Moped", "Motorized Bicycle", "Motorscooter", "scooter", "Motor-Driven Cycle", and or others. A moped's or motorized bicycle's speed generally may not exceed 30 mph (48 km/h) on level ground, even if it is capable of going faster. In a few states this number is 20 or 25 mph (32 or 40 km/h), and in most states, the maximum engine capacity is 50 cc (3.1 cu in). However, Kansas ("Motorized Bicycle" K.S.A. 8-126, 8-1439a) allows up to 130 cc (7.9 cu in). Some states, like California, require pedals, while others do not. Virginia allows mopeds to operate at up to 35 mph (56 km/h). Some states, like North Carolina, require there to be no external gear-shifting mechanism.

    The term "moped" now only applies to low power (often super-economy) vehicles, but pedals were a sign of sophistication when first fitted to the early motorized cycles, such as the 1912 Douglas. Pedaling away from stationary was a great improvement over "run and jump" and LPA (light pedal assistance) was valuable for climbing hills. Better transmissions with wider ranges, better clutches and much better engine performance made pedals obsolete on all serious motorized cycles by 1918 but the pedals on mopeds remained valuable for their original purposes as late as the 1990's, or even mopeds produced in today's market.

    Continued in Next Post!
     
    #1 Crazy Horse, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  2. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    Continued from 1st Post

    Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycles


    The many different styles or types of Mopeds
    Pedaling Mopeds - Have larger wheels which makes them more stable with predictable handling, are good on rougher roads, they have a motorcycle riding style suited to the open road, but offer little or no weather protection or storage. Pedal mopeds have a very simple transmission that uses a belt primary drive off an engine mounted centrifugal clutch, then a chain or gear secondary drive to the rear wheel, this gives poor acceleration and with no gears hills can be a problem. To overcome this they have a set of bicycle pedals which can be used to assist accelerating the moped, or on steep hills when the engine can't cope on its own, pedal mopeds can also be ridden without the engine like a bicycle.

    Scooter Mopeds - Have smaller wheels, great weather protection, good storage usually under the seat, nimble handling so they are good around town, and they usually have a twist and go C.V.T or continuously variable transmission, which gives them good acceleration and hill climbing ability. If you want to get up town in rush hour, maybe in the rain, and you have a few hills to go over, then a scooter moped is the best choice, models to look for are the Honda Spree, and Elite, or the Yamaha Jog. Most of the brands like Honda, Suzuki, or Vespa are more expensive but they do have better parts and service through their authorized dealerships, and they will retain their value.

    Nopeds - Are another combination of moped and scooter. They usually have a minimal chassis design and larger wheels like a moped, with a modern enclosed engine/transmission that moves in unit with the rear suspension like a scooter. Nopeds have no pedals so hills and acceleration can be a problem. Some models are the Suzuki FA50, and Yamaha QT50, or the Honda Express.

    Old SkooL Mopeds - Are the mostly European and Japanese made classics that came into the US in huge numbers during the oil / gasoline crisis of the 1970's. Mopeds that were made during this era by some well known motorcycle brands such as Moto Guzzi which offered its beautiful Robin Moped, and in the US the Indian marque released a number of mopeds including the Indian Chief, even Harley Davidson sold a moped under its then AMF parent, the AMF Roadmaster. Other US brands included Califfo, Murray, Trac, and Sebring. Many mopeds sold during the 1970's were from European manufacturers, brands like Puch, Batavus, Jawa, Motobecane, Peugeot, Piaggio, Kreidler, Garelli, Gilera, Fantic-Chopper, and Raleigh, were all well represented, and from Japan of course Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, all three companies offered mopeds in their line up. Mopeds from this era have a retro cool style, and were made from steel and chrome.

    Antique Mopeds - These mopeds were sold new during the 1900's and 1960's, many by the giant Sears Roebuck Corporation which sold mopeds under their Allstate brand by mail order. Sears mopeds were actually made by Puch in Germany and Steyr Daimler in Austria, these were very high quality bikes. In the mid 1960's Harley Davidson released its M50 moped along with a number of small motorcycles after it merged with Aermacchi, the M50 has rightly come to be prized by collectors. Antique mopeds are sitting in basements and garages all over the country and often turn up when their owners move or need space in their garage, common examples still around today are the Wards Riverside moped, and many older French Motobecane mopeds, more collectable finds include mopeds by Benelli, MV Augusta, and Lambretta, all these mopeds that will increase in value with age.

    Step-through Mopeds - These are not strictly mopeds, having gears and a chain drive to the rear wheel, they did however have a 49 cc engine and were made in vast numbers especially by Honda with their famous 4 stroke C50 Cub, but also by Suzuki and Yamaha whose bikes were powered by 49 cc 2 stroke engines. Over 50 million C50 & C90 step- through were sold making them the most successful vehicle ever! Sport's versions came in the form of the Honda SS 50. In many areas 49 cc step through mopeds can be registered as mopeds simply because of their small engine size. Honda stopped producing these bikes many years ago, but there are still numerous step through Honda clones being made in China.

    Did you know that there is a American Motorized Bicycle Association
    In the early 1970s, the American Motorized Bicycle Association recommended model legislation to cover mopeds. The Association suggested that states remove motorized bicycles from statutory definitions for motorcycles and motor vehicles, and define motorized bicycles separately. Arthur, supra, at 124-25 (setting forth proposed legislation). The recommended legislation also provided that motorized bicycles be subject to all the rules of the road.

    WOW I never had any idea and have never heard about the American Motorized Bicycle Association!

    Did you know that a moped is really a kind of motorized bicycle
    The moped is actually a kind of motorized bicycle, it belongs to an entirely different category than motorized cycles such as the Honda Super Cub and various Scooter's. Mopeds refer to motorized bicycles that are equipped with pedals. In Japan, they are now called 'mopetto.' While mopeds are by law restricted to engine displacements of 50 cc or less and a maximum speed of 40 kilometers per hour (varying somewhat among countries), they are also given special tax privileges in taxes, insurance, and special traffic rules. Moreover, the minimum operating age without a license was sixteen years.

    Did you know the U.S. Federal Moped Law
    Helmets
    The law requires the moped driver and passenger to use a helmet designed for use on a motorized vehicle. This is to protect the driver and the passenger from injuries and death caused by head impact, as imposed by the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 218. The helmet to be used must be securely fastened and not have any lateral or vertical movement.

    Manufacturer's Safety Certification Label
    The Federal Code of Regulations Title 49, Part 567, states that the manufacturer of the moped place a label of being in compliance with all of the safety regulations on each moped they produce.

    Driver Restrictions
    The driver is prohibited from driving the moped when the driver is in the sitting position if the passenger's feet cannot touch the ground. It is also illegal to drive if the hands of the driver when on the grip of the handlebars are more than six inches above the driver's shoulder while sitting astride the seat.

    Moped Passenger
    It is unlawful to carry a passenger unless there is a seat securely fastened to the motorized bicycle located at the rear of the driver and has a footrest or a sidecar designed to carry the passenger. The passenger must always have her feet on the footrest while the vehicle is in motion.

    I have no Idea if the above Federal Moped Law's are still in effect, or if it has been amended at this time. As of 2010, if you want more information google search the U.S. Government's Federal Code of Regulations pertaining to Mopeds / Motorized Bicycles.

    To those of you who have read this thread, I hope it has peaked your imagination as to the possibilities of Moped's The Other Motorized Bicycles.

    Peace Crazy Horse.

    Here's a couple of pic's of some Old SkooL Mopeds!
     

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    #2 Crazy Horse, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  3. Nougat

    Nougat New Member

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    Couple of problems with that idea.

    One, there's already a booming moped forum at Moped Army. Two, this forum is getting pretty granular and disjointed already; adding a whole other arena of motorized cycles will only confuse things. Three, I can attest that the fabrication skills that are demonstrated here are worlds beyond what gets done to most mopeds. Moped people tend to be more bolt-on.

    If there's a vote, I'll have to vote no.
     
  4. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    1. Thanks for your reply's.

    2. My thoughts are how we as motorized bicyclists, can, have, and will do more in some ways with their builds using Moped Designs for Idea's.

    3. Moped Parts, and Components can and have been used to make our motorized bicycles more functional, using moped wheels / hubs, using moped lighting / electrical components, using moped engines with built in pedals, using moped gas tanks, using moped seats.

    I must agree our fellow forum members / motorized bicycle builders have shown in their builds amazing fabrication skills.

    Although I'd prefer to stay on the topic of "Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycle"!

    This is why we have such an awesome forum fellow forum members always willing to share information that is for the greater cause of Motorized Bicycling!!!

    Peace Crazy Horse.
     
    #4 Crazy Horse, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  5. silverbear

    silverbear The Boy Who Never Grew Up

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    CH,
    I enjoyed reading this thread and last year contemplated buying a couple of old mopeds to rebuild, a Puch and a Batavus sitting in back of an elderly couple's garage. They bought them for each other as a wedding present in the late 60's or early 70's. Compared to the Chinese scooters out there all over the place, they seem a whole lot better.
    I don't know what to say about the idea of adding a section to our forum. I guess it depends. If it adds somehow to the original purpose of this forum.... as a meeting place for motor bicycle enthusiasts then I say, fine. If it confuses things with a million posts on mopeds then it would detract. I don't see it as a great threat, however, since I think our foundation here is in motored bikes and building them. Having a Whizzer section has not detracted in any way that I can see as the Whizzers were a both a manufactured bike and earlier sold motors separately to motorize a regular bicycle... kind of a cross over. I do see some interest here in 2 stroke hybrid motors using some moped engine parts. I can see some benefit and think it OK so long as the central focus remains motorized bicycles.
    SB
     
  6. corgi1

    corgi1 New Member

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    I saw a site the other day w/moped forks and things and I was wondering while looking if the front forks would be stronger ,looked like they would handle bike size wheels as well I think I was wandering around looking at reed valves
     
  7. foureasy

    foureasy New Member

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    Really, the fabrication skills on this site are worlds beyond moped guys, have you been smoking crack? Has anyone on this site ever talked about shimming a cylinder to change port timing? Sorry dude, you are dead wrong.
    As far as a moped.forum is concerned crazy, just join up with moped army, cause no one here has a license.
     
  8. grinNbarritt

    grinNbarritt New Member

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    I like Moped Army, lots of tech stuff there. But the vibe there is way different then here... you ask a question in wrong place there, you get a bunch of WFFF (wrong forum ****face)... I've NEVER seen that here..... just my .02 cents Jim
     
  9. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    grinNBarrit, thats so true some forums will get you a reply like that for asking a question or share an Idea Ditto I too haven't seen that here !!!

    My Original post states that many of us have used or are thinking about using moped parts & components for our motorized bicycle builds, and that is the topic of discussion for this thread!

    Moped Parts, and Components can and have been used to make our motorized bicycles more functional, using moped wheels / hubs, using moped lighting / electrical components, using moped engines with built in pedals, using moped gas tanks, using moped seats, using moped forks / suspensions.

    Thanks for the replys guys!!!!

    Peace Crazy Horse.
     
    #9 Crazy Horse, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  10. Nougat

    Nougat New Member

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    Regarding the disjointedness: for me, the separate boards for different frame styles are a bit much. The separate boards for intake/exhaust, cylinders/heads, etc, are a bit much. I feel that from a mechanical standpoint, small engines and their bicycle installation kits are best addressed holistically, since there's such a high degree of butterfly effect. Also, since there are so many boards to follow, I always feel like I'm missing something because I haven't had time to check every little corner.
     
  11. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    Ofc we've all our preferences & it's good to get some feedback about the new subforums & personally.. I kinda like the idea of a moped section as there is so much potential & useful crossover tech... but then again it's not quite bicycle related & I dunno how popular it'd be *shrug* Mebbe start with a thread in 'General Discussion' and see if it grows?

    I tend to use the "new posts" button under the banner, but it's true I also look in on the forum frequently so the backlog of threads & posts to check isn't bad. While we've subdivided into frame styles & engine specifics, we don't discourage off-topic as it often leads to new & interesting things, yet as things are intertwined it's often far easier to find a place to start for the new members if they're lookin' for stuff or to solve a problem. If you've a thread in the cruiser section, ofc you're gonna talk about yer carby problems - yet if ya just wanna talk about fuel systems you've a place ta go for that too.

    The place is growing like crazy & without the subdivisions I think it'd be getting pretty chaotic, but it's also an ongoing work in progress & the feedback in 'Suggestions' helps us a bunch w/that! Kickin' these ideas around can only lead to improvements I figure :)
     
    #11 BarelyAWake, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  12. corgi1

    corgi1 New Member

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    I personally like the different engine components talked about seperatly AND the same subject brought back from a different angle/understanding,I love to see the light come on when a person finally understands why the plug looks the way it does or how the clutch really works,just a happy feeling,different people under stand from different directions ,new blood may have new ideas and I would welcome new members if they wish to be a part
     
  13. grinNbarritt

    grinNbarritt New Member

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    I'd love it if we could get some of the really smart helpful guys from moped army here, but with them the Dbags would follow, Moped armys motto is "swarm n destroy" I think that mentality jumpin into MB's will have john law all over us sooner than its gonna happen already. I'm not sayin keep them daym mopeders out, but whoever gets to mod that section is gonna have a fulltime job keepin it under control... again just my o2 cents Jim
     
  14. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    I'm hoping this thread brings out our present forum members motorized bicyclists, who are also moped enthusiasts, that have or currently are using some type of moped parts or components in their motorized bicycle builds.

    My intention for this thread is to share information / experience as BarelyAWake stated ( for the potential use's of moped parts & components ), or the possibilities of moped components incorporated and or utilized in our motorized bicycle builds and the sharing of the information or knowledge gained from experiencing first hand what moped parts they've used, what moped parts worked, and what moped parts didn't work on their motorized bicycle build.

    Thanks again for the reply's !!!!

    As I stated previously the original topic is based on the following below:
    Moped Parts, and Components can and have been used to make our motorized bicycles more functional, using moped wheels / hubs, using moped lighting / electrical components, using moped engines with built in pedals, using moped gas tanks, using moped seats, using moped forks / suspensions.

    I'd also like to say again, that my intention for starting this thread was for reply's from motorized bicyclists whom are or have been utilizing moped parts for their builds, and to share their knowledge and experience with using moped parts. I hope this thread continues to grow with motorized bicyclists replying with their thoughts, Ideas, and experience related to moped parts and components that can or are being used on their motorized bicycles!

    Peace Crazy Horse.
     
    #14 Crazy Horse, Oct 16, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2010
  15. foureasy

    foureasy New Member

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    I started a thread about putting together a motor with a puch top end. Throughout the entire thread the only questions i got were the ones i already answered. When i wanna talk about two stroke theory i go to moped army.
    Moped Army - Re: rod length vs port timing

    Could you imagine where this would go on here?
     
  16. corgi1

    corgi1 New Member

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    Very Interesting,,,,,do moose and squeril know about this lol
     
  17. Techbiker

    Techbiker New Member

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    I would have to vote no on the moped sub-section. It would be interesting to learn more about Mopeds, but then why not have a motorcycle sub-section as well? Then, the question about whether we should limit the forum to devices with 2 wheels will come up. We'd have to consider giving rick-shaws a sub-section as well.

    This is a great forum, but I have been on much more mature forums with more members. These more developed forums often have less sub-sections than we do here, yet they are getting along fine. Unless we are getting 15+ new topics posted in each section every day, I don't see a need for further expansion.

    The main issue, as Nougat noted is that it is so difficult to find interesting new topics to read as it is since there are already many sections. Some sections might not get new posts for days. When you have a question and expect an answer, it is tough if your section gets next to no traffic.

    If anything, we should consider condensing some sections to increase the viewability of articles.
     
  18. Crazy Horse

    Crazy Horse Dealer

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    I hope this thread can now focus on the original topic of "Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycle"!

    As I stated previously the original topic is based on the following below:
    Moped Parts, and Components that can and have been used to make our motorized bicycles more functional, using moped wheels / hubs, using moped lighting / electrical components, using moped engines with built in pedals, using moped gas tanks, using moped seats, using moped forks / suspensions.


    As suggested by BarelyAWake, mabbe,
    If you'd like to discuss "Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycles" this is the place / thread to do so!

    If there are any forum members who'd like to start a new thread in 'General Discussion's' directly related to adding Mopeds Forum please do so in the 'General Discussions' Forum, as suggested by 'BarelyAWake', as I'd like to remain focused on the Original Topic of this thread that being 'Mopeds The Other Motorized Bicycles', and how we've motorized bicyclists used moped parts & components for or on our motorized bicycles!

    As I stated previously the original topic is based on the following below:
    Moped Parts, and Components can and have been used to make our motorized bicycles more functional, using moped wheels / hubs, using moped lighting / electrical components, using moped engines with built in pedals, using moped gas tanks, using moped seats, using moped forks / suspensions.

    With all this being said: please share here with the forum what moped parts you have used, where you've found moped parts you've used, how those parts have for better or worse been used on your motorized bicycle builds!

    Peace Crazy Horse
     
  19. Dan

    Dan Staff
    Staff Member

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    I think this is a great idea. Most especially, so as to cross use existing tech as BA mentioned. The hefty'er wheels and suspension. Mass produced parts that would benefit us. No down side to having information and especially heavy MB stuff and sources. I always read the MC and RC folks closely. Just for the slightly different take, knowlege and experiences.

    LOL! One of my all time favorite lines. Or; "Shouldn't you be out making big trouble ford Moose and skawrle?

    YouTube - Bullwinkle sings Gordon Lightfoot
     

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  20. wheelbender6

    wheelbender6 Active Member

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    Perhaps we could have a catch-all "Other Motorized Vehicals" sub forum.
    Most forum sites seem to have something similar.
    Ratrodbikes.com has a "Other Bikes" sub forum for mountain bikes, road bikes, etc.

    By the way, is the MopedArmy site still online?
    I was not able to access that site for a while.
     

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