KC's new 4-stroke Jackshaft base

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle Swap And Shop Sales' started by KCvale, Feb 20, 2014.

  1. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    The 20/80's are 4:1, the 20/100's are 5:1, he will have a 20:90 in the future for 4.5:1 but another new addition coming is a 17/100 with a 5.88:1 reduction and a keyed output shaft long enough to reach the right hand side for direct 'jackshaft' shifting without the other shaft, sprocket and chain.
     
    #41 KCvale, Jan 4, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  2. Chainreaction

    Chainreaction New Member

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    WAYAFRO I was wondering what your crank RPM might be at cruizing speed. I think about 90-100 is going to be about comfortable for me, figuring my 31cc weed whacker engine RPM should be happy about 4-5000 rpm for cruizing. A lot of gear reduction.
     
  3. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    Haha I'd love to tell you but I only had .6 hrs on the tach/hr meter when I broke the gearbox and had to peddle home. It was dark so I didn't really pay attention to it. I was more focused on the pipe! It really makes more power and makes this little engine sound a lot ballzier.

    To try and answer your question though. With the gearbox at 3.7:1, the output sprocket on the gearbox 11tooth, the left side jackshaft sprocket 17tooth, the right side jackshaft sprocket 9tooth, the big front freewheel sprocket 48thooth, the small front freewheel sprocket 24tooth, 4th gear on rear 7speed 20tooth, and about a 29" OD tire, going ~30mph the engine sounded like it was going pretty fast but not too fast. I didn't have the tach yet. I was able to go down to 5th gear 19tooth on flat or slight up hill and giver constant full throttle and still going about the same speed and the engine sounded a little happier. 6th was too high on flat, it seemed a bit like engine lugging for my liking. And 3rd was too low for top speed, the engine was able to over come rolling/wind resistance.

    This is too much math for my simple brain to try and figure out but maybe this will help you or some others here. Would be a lot easier once I get the new belt drive and I can just look at the tach. But I'll probably have to put the 30 tooth back on the front freewheel to get the gearing right again since the belt drive will most likely have a 4:1 ratio.

    KC I'm wondering if you can tell me if this will mount to my engine, since the ebay seller didn't have much information up and I didn't think to ask?
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/400721444538?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
     
    #43 WAYAFRO, Jan 5, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  4. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    Stage 3 right?

    Humm, curios..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I don't see how that could bolt to anything, the 4 motor mount holes have bolts and nuts through them to hold the clutch bell.

    Perhaps the nuts and bolts are just for the pic to hold the bell in place and that bearing mounted plate just sandwiches between the case and engine, that would be cool if that were the case, a 7G with a better clutch.

    That output sprocket also looks to be a freewheel, that could be a good thing depending on the quality.

    Best I can do for ya with just those 2 pics bud.
     
    #44 KCvale, Jan 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  5. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    yes sir stage III (3)

    Got the belt drive today.
    Came just as the pictures showed, with bolts and nuts holding it together.
    And yes you were right it is a freewheel on the output.
    I like how it has three holes to adjust the mounting angle.
    I just hope it bolts up and I can get everything lined up with the jackshaft.
    The clutch doesn't have a key. I hope the one in the stage 3 will be the same size??? I don't have time to mess with it right now because I'm capacity testing about 1000 used laptop cells for an ebike battery, and I'm only 1/3 of the way done. I stated again yesterday, but had put it off since may last year so now that I'm geared up I just want to get it done! I'll make time within the next couple of days to get out there and try er out. scratg

    It's too cold out to ride right now anyway...well at least something with a motor. (I peddled to the bus stop this morning) It was neg. something today.
     
  6. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    According to Don Grube what you have is:

    • Yes, we know about the Woodpecker T belt drive copy made by a factory called YongQi about 1 hr away from us.. Copy starts with a C and so does China.

    The clutch goes on the engine and NEEDS a key and be the size of the bell, the bell is another story.

    I can relate, 50F after sunrise and 77F this afternoon was just a degree or two short of totally awesome today...
    Sorry man, just couldn't help myself ;-}
     
  7. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    hahaha funny guy ;-}

    Thanks a grip for the info...

    What do you recommend if I can't get this one working?
     
  8. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    Which 142F do you have?
    long keyed shaft with no clutch, or short shaft with clutch already on it?
     
  9. The_Aleman

    The_Aleman Active Member

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    <removed out of protest to certain "staff" practices in this forum.>
     
    #49 The_Aleman, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2015
  10. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    Still haven't messed with it yet.
    Had to work 28 hrs strait doin snow removal.
    Yah I have the keyed shaft with no preinstalled clutch.
     
  11. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    Did a quick search for the Dax Titan. Found a thread from 07 and his web page.
    So are these engines really that much better than the HS? I see they are Dual OHV. If the HS are SOHC or single OHV then this would make a big difference I presume. Also I seen a super XC50S Dax Titan 49cc four stroke. Sais it makes 3 hp and 2.75 ft. lbs. What makes this XC50S make 1/2 more hp and 1/4 more torque over the XC50? What does the HS make? I thought it was like 2 hp, and the Honda was 2.5 hp? Although I was going to get every performance part for the HS engine. Opening up the intake, exhaust, carb and valves making a lot more power. How much more IDK? Can you get all these parts for the Titan?

    Also are you sure this belt drive will bolt up to the Dax Titan?

    Any info will be much appreciated!
     
  12. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    Haha it was just one of the bolts in the inside of the box that rattled loose! I finally got time to look at it today. Now I'll be riding again as soon as the jb weld cures on the cracked case.

    Thanks for all the info along the way though guy's! I learned a lot. I also read somewhere that these gears a week because the steal isn't hardened enough. He said he heats them up and quenches them to solve this. I may do this some time but for now I'll just go easy on er. ;-)I think the gears are still somewhat hard cause they chewed that bolt up pretty good without even a scratch on the gears.
    Here's a linky to some picks and my build if anybody is interested.
    http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65638&p=996089#p996089
     
  13. GearNut

    GearNut Active Member

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    The Titan has slightly higher compression which gives it a teensy bit more power.
    IFAIK, all the internals are compatible if swapped out in matched sets, IE crank with connecting rod, piston with rings ect. don't go mishmashing between assemblies or trouble can result. oh yeah, the Honda I think (if memory serves me right) has a higher domed piston whereas the Titan has a longer connecting rod as compared to the HuaSheng.

    With the exception of smoothing the burrs and polishing the exhaust port, the factory porting can't really be improved upon by enlarging the port or reshaping the valve pocket. The factory did their homework. You could cut down or "slender" the valve guides at the cost of lifespan. Scotto- has done a great job of squeezing out every last fraction of HP out of his engines. Check out his threads.
    AGK has hop up parts but they seem to be perpetually out of stock.
    http://www.affordablegokarts.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&
    Category_Code=MTRBK49
    Try Venice's site for the NT carb conversion kit.
    http://venicemotorbikes.com/shop/?product_cat=bicycle-engine-kits
     
  14. WAYAFRO

    WAYAFRO New Member

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    hahaha for sure! I've gone through two actual china girls and every word of that is right.
    Good stuff
    O and great info here thanks a bunch.
    I talked to the Dax guy on the phone 2 nights ago at about 10 pm. He was all groggy from working in the shop all day. lol All he said I think was it was just like the HS but it was a spec engine. I'm pretty set on getting a Dax eventually now that I know they have Higher compression. It works out good because the only place I can find fuel with no ethanol, only sells it in 90. I'll just use the HS as the winter better since it already got the full salt bath treatment.

    I did email AGK a week ago too. All pissy asking what the deal was. They said they were bout to do a build with a 49cc so they should have some stuff up in a couple weeks or so.
    I asked them to email me when that happens. We'll see. I do have there shorty pipe and I like it. sounds better and seems to make a difference.

    I'll def check out venicemotorbikes!

    And Scotto's thread
     
  15. Velodrome

    Velodrome Well-Known Member

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    2 Questions for ya KC. How close is this to production ( can actually buy ) and do you think the S.A. or Nexus 3 speed hubs could stand up the the MASSIVE power of the HS 49cc ??
     
  16. jhammondcpa

    jhammondcpa New Member

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    How did I miss this, keep up the good work!

    Jimmy H.
     
  17. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    Close enough that I just got the first long shaft production design 100T freewheel rear housing and started to mount it into the 4G base I have today.
    Heck the bolts aren't even in tight yet but this is how it sits since I called it a day today.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The shaft is supported in the concentric inset by a pair of nice looking Japanese bearings so it will be about how exact the carrier bearing on the right can be, and that will take me as long it takes me my friend ;-}

    Massive Power (snicker), I haven't been able to break either of those internally geared hubs no matter how much power I have thrown at them.
    That does not count the NuVinci hubs but they are not gears, they are CVT and we chewed up 4.
     
  18. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    OK, I finally have a window of time to play with the KC's Krusiers 10G long shaft transfer case with the HS 142F tapered short shaft with clutch attached engine it is designed to fit.

    The clutch bell is attached to the 10T primary shaft that rides on a pair of bearings.

    A 5/8" long shaft HS142 might work if you could find a way to attach a clutch to it and saw off the extra shaft.

    The secondary is a big concentric unit for easy belt tightening, with a pair of good Japanese bearings for shaft support, and the 100T pulley freewheels on the shaft so when you pedal you don't have to pull the whole belt and clutch assembly too.

    Nice touch eh?
    Beats that 7G system to dust.

    [​IMG]

    I am not bound by base bolt holes, it's thick yet soft aluminum so I can orient the shaft wherever I want by drilling new holes so I did one just to see what looks like it might be a good angle.

    The shaft is closer to the base and below the oil filler.
    It's no good if you can't easily get to your oil filler.


    The shaft length looks to be just right, even for really wide bottom brackets.

    [​IMG]

    Keyed shaft and 9T sprocket with 2 set screws.
    The threaded hole in the end will make a nice mount for a chain guard disc mounted to the end.
    Anything that will keep a pant leg from getting caught in it, that is really REALLY no fun.
    Heck, I can even see some sort of 'spinner' bolted on there ;-}

    I am using the SickBikeParts BB assembly with a sealed bearing 3 piece crank cartridge, HD freewheel with coupler for the sprocket pair so any wide enough crank arms can fit it.

    Primary sprocket is 48T, secondary back wheel drive sprocket is 30T.

    Output shaft is 15mm so I will playing with this 15mm pillow that is on it's way first to at least let me visualize how I am going to make an adjustable carrier bearing support on the base.

    [​IMG]

    All I know is has to be stronger than my first attempt a year ago.

    [​IMG]

    That attempt did pave the way for my new custom made base that is actually easy to work with and does the job.

    Trail and error if need be, but I have a pretty darn good plan for what I want, a single drop in 4-stroke unit with right side drive.

    Gear ratios:

    The centrifugal clutch kicks in ~3500 RPM.
    Max torque is ~4800-5200 RPM.
    Max power is at ~6800 RPM.

    With this 7-speed derailleur 1st is a 21T sprocket, 7th is a 12T.

    Final drive ratio to the back wheel sprockets is 24.44 x (30T / Teeth on back sprocket), a decimal number.

    @4KRPM 1st will do 17.5MPH
    @4KRPM 7th will do 31.5MPH

    Ideal easy RPM

    @5.2KRPM 1st will do 23.5MPH
    @5.2KRPM 7th will do 41MPH

    Open it up to MAX power sweet spot

    @6.8KRPM 1st will do 34MPH
    @6.8KRPM 7th will do 53MPH

    Those are of course all math numbers that does not account for weight or wind resistance, but an ideal drive reduction to the primary rear drive sprocket.

    That's it for now, I need some flat metal strong enough to hold the structure and retain it's lines, but easy enough to cut and bend with simple tools to make a mock up.
     
    #58 KCvale, Mar 6, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2015
  19. KCvale

    KCvale Well-Known Member

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    OK, reality time...

    Just suffice it to say I scored on getting a bunch of great transfer case parts, some of which I helped design, on a pallet just for me from China to custom assemble some top quality units to fit your gearing needs and set the bar back up high where it should be for such an important part of a 4-stroke drive train.

    Why the heck not right?

    I have spent a couple of years trying everything I can to come up with what I know will work the best for the 142F and 144F engines on a bike.
    The 144 is the 53cc version of the 142 but compatable.

    I am going to start with 30 custom modified 4G bases with dual bearing support for each side of the T-belt transfer case, and then an array of different part options of it's internal and external reduction and size.

    In short the drive train options and mounting base I have worked a long time to come up with for my own builds I will be offering for sale in a custom way.

    I don't know the exact date the slow boat from China sails with Dons 20' cargo container, all I know is he will put a pallet of what I want on it to hitch a ride to the states and I'm going to give this new gig a try.

    One thing you will never lack from what I sell is on-line tech support.
    Heck my web site is already geared for that and I have time to help anyone looking to go 4-stroke by their actual bike.

    Anyway, I think it's a needful thing for those that aren't worried about every penny and just want to build something reliable, kind of my like my full build customers.

    Thoughts?

    ... other than cost, dates, etc... I just don't know that yet, I am just probing interest in the concept and their intention to actually buy one.

    Thanks guys, it's a big step for me.
     
  20. Velodrome

    Velodrome Well-Known Member

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    :) INTERESTED! And Im just across town. AND i just so happen to be working on a frame for a very cool build. I wanna 3 speed. Would you get Sturmey Archer or Nexus ?
     

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