Indian Tadpole

[fasteddy]

Here is the drill guide Curt was kind enough to loan me so I could drill the end of the crank shaft. I added the measurements to the photos but here they are again. The 1" OD x 3/4" ID DOM tubing for the holder is 4" long. The 3/4" cold rolled steel guides are 1-3/4" long.

The pilot drill bit is 3/16". The drill bit for the tap is 17/64". The tap is 5/16-24. The set screws to hold everything in place are 1/4" rod.

The 3/4" cold rolled steel sections were put into a lathe chuck and drilled so they are centered.

To reduce the guide to use it on 5/8 shafts slide a 3/4" OD X 5/8 ID bronze oilite bearing into the end of the holder.

Steve.

http://i866.photobucket.com/albums/ab228/speedydick/Indian Tri-car Build/DSC_0006_zps57sseajh.jpg

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

What is the purpose of the half cut through of the circumference of the outer sleeve of the guide?

I suppose the slot is to be aligned with the end of the crankshaft.

I was guessing particles of metal could be released some from the drilling and tapping. Cutting oil added at that point also.

It is also I guess that even without doing that removing the drill and tap a few times in the process to clean particles and put cutting fluid. Although the tapping is what I remember starting the tap, best to get a fair amount before removing to clean tap. Otherwise I can see the threads really never getting a good start.

The tool must help a lot and hopefully never has been a messed up thread when used correctly.

And thanks for the pictures helps a lot!

MT

 

[indian22]

Hi Steve, Thanks for posting details on this super handy & simple guide. I'd guess most forum members have little or no training in machine shop techniques/concepts & haven't faced the problem posed in finding a true center & then accurately machining from that point an eccentric work piece, which can't readily be mounted in a machine tool, such as a lathe or even a drill press... so it's machine shop & spend $$ time. Most commercial shops will use a similar tool to complete the task & charge at least an hour rate. Very useful tool for axle shafts as well with a variety of proper diameter adapters. Rick C.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

The engine I'm swapping in place now does not need a special key made for it. The older engine using the belt clutch had not a full length keyway. The only way I could fit the clutch to work with the jackshaft was to have the pulley outboard. With the clutch on the shaft that way the partial key way slot on the clutch was by the crankcase wall.

I wonder why the engine crankshaft keyway is cut mostly all the way to the crankcase wall, but the last bit is not square cut?

I do understand a mill with the smallest cutter will still leave a little roundness, but this is like more of a bevel or an arc cut. I made about half the key with a matching cut away to match it. This had almost all the strength as it would otherwise and it never sheared.

The key mod would not have been necessary if the clutch had a full length keyway or I could have had the pulley clutch pulley inboard, but it was not to be.

Dremel and file and sand paper does it.

2nd picture of 5 on post 107 on page 11 Art Fish Mobile Motor Bike prior Motor Bike DIY'er build to add side car maybe?

http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=29678&page=11

(this address might work for the 2nd picture?)

http://motorbicycling.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=56240&d=1360136576

also:

4th picture of 5 at post 93 on page 10 Art Fish Mobile Motor Bike prior Motor Bike DIY'er build to add side car maybe?

http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=29678&page=10

(this address might work for the 4th picture?)

http://motorbicycling.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55473&d=1358667428

==========================================

From past 3 years ago work I did on the Briggs bike I have. It came with a concave dimple in the end of the crankshaft. No threads though. It sort of helped, but I used a center punch anyway.

I did not know if I took pictures of the engine crankshaft as I tapped. The way it was tapped though was practically the same way as the jackshaft I tapped.

The tool Curtisfox made is a definitely great idea! I'm in a week or so am going to replace a jackshaft and am going to tap it the same.

The way I got threads done for tapping 1/4-20 threads on jackshaft. Used blue dye an scribe along with calipers to center punch the jackshaft end and pilot hole / thread hole drill.

The tap and handle in picture with work bench holding shaft. Used pulley, split collar, and heavy spring clamps to hold to bench the jackshaft vertical.

http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=29678&page=15

post 149 on page 15 Art Fish Mobile Motor Bike prior Motor Bike DIY'er build to add side car maybe?

 

[fasteddy]

M.T.

I don't know why the cut is there. Hopefully Curt will tell us. Thank you. The photos make it much easier to explain everything.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

Your welcome Rick. Curt sure made it a whole lot easier to do the job. I'll drill it out and tap it in the next couple of days. I'm trying to get the tank pattern done first.

Steve.

 

[curtisfox]

Thanks for posting the pictures: The tap drill is suppose to be a letter I drill LOL the slot did have a stop in it but was not nessery, so no long there. Sort of trial and error, Silverbear needed it so made one. I also will need it, as have a couple 5/8" shifted engines to drill and tap. Love doing this kind of stuff, just wished I would of got a lathe years ago instead of after retirement ...............Curt

 

[fasteddy]

Your welcome Curt. I'm going to cut up some of the 3/4" bar I have and have the machinist drill them out so I can make a guide set of my own. Just about the only way to do it as Rick C. said.

I often wish I had bought a mini lathe when I started messing around with the motorbikes. I could have filled up the scrap metal buckets even faster.

Steve.

 

[curtisfox]

Ya! But then you would not have become friends with the machinist , LOL. Ya mistakes and shavings add up fast..............Curt

 

[indian22]

I grew up in real machine shops where one motor ran every machine tool off overhead belts (leather) and you pulled power off the main belt to power one or all machine at once. The type of shop that Hendee & the Harley's started in and ran for years. State of the art in 1900, but pretty dated by 1950's.

It was glorious to see several machinists at differing stations completing their tasks. No air conditioning in a large metal building so summer's work was sweltering...especially at the forges & in the welding shop. Mr. Fleming was the proprietor & answered a small boy's questions with great patience & eventually allowed simple tasks to be performed by a slightly older boy. The shop was a dangerous environment but full of discoveries to be made and lessons to be learned in those days long before the government stepped in to make all safe and also preventing those who could, from creating and becoming men. I'm so very glad that I lived at a time when even small boys could learn to provide for themselves through the tutelage of men like Mr. Fleming.

I wasn't allowed to use machine tools until I was twelve, up to that point I'd only been allowed to hammer, file, bend, saw and drill by hand. I learned that virtually anything of common metal could be shaped with these elemental tools. Not fast but really precise. Tolerances can be achieved to the "thickness of smoke" with a fine set of files which is still the way great firearms are produced today some fetching upwards of $100,000. for a double shotgun and often a three year + wait. Still once one is introduced to the drill press and lathe...with the mill soon to follow etc. it's hard to go back.

I still like puttering with basic tools, it reminds me of a simpler time, but would hate to try to make a living dependent on just hand tools. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

I wonder why the engine crankshaft key way is cut mostly all the way to the crankcase wall, but the last bit is not square cut?

If you've ever encountered a buggered up key way it might have been caused by a heavy handed mechanic who tried to gouge the key out at the point it was stuck employing a gouge of some type and trying to drive & pry the key toward the end of the shaft instead of gently moving with it a small hammer & punch toward that handy little "ramp" where it is elevated for easy grasping and removal. Rick C.

 

[MEASURE TWICE]

In San Diego I visited the Antique Engine Museum and I think I remember the blacksmith shop having belt driven equipment from the ceiling. Half twist belt over length chaining rotation of shaft without harming the belt any.

I visited a grist mill I remember. It was at a river that was near a bay on Long Island Sound, New York. There belts were used with river power and also horse driving circular path. But of course at home old washing machine motors saved when the rest was too costly to repair became shoe shine buffing wheels and grinding stone. So power tools at low cost. I really like the variable speed Dremel and I try to call it a hand tool

Elsewhere a much shorter length belt I saw on a self propelled lawn mower with a quarter turn so gears were not necessary. This was to get the vertical shaft blade engine to rotate the front tires axle. The small pulley was actually just above the cutting blade and smaller than the one on the axle for more torque.

Thanks for the answer about the keyway and it sounds plausible, I tried all kinds of searches on the internet but could not find anything.

I actually thought of trying to hand mill (Dremel) the inboard area of the keyway slot. This would only take out the ramp as it be and get a fraction of and inch more usable keyway so it should not weaken the shaft.

Loosing the special key means I really should have had a backup spare special key. Now the setup is using another engine where the sprocket on the shaft needs very little keyway on the shaft. The sprockets also have a full length keyway they can be put on the shaft teeth inboard or outboard.

I've also done something maybe others have hit on too. It probably would not matter if the key use was slightly oversize and fit snug. Since I want to have the key to be in the position that the set screw will not be too near the end of the key that it may be actually off the edge some. The set screw then only partially on the key.

If I cut a longer key from stock it could be sure to be in place in many cases, but for that you might as well have oversize stock and sand down custom fit. So I for a simple quick way I took some paper towel mashed into to area on the keyway adjacent to where the key is needed and it is centered shimmed in place.

 

[indian22]

I'm glad to hear museum's are saving historical machine shops, which were also occasionally referred to as "blacksmith" shops by the old guys back in the fifties. I still marvel at what was built before the twentieth century with rudimentary power tools...amazing!

Steve I'm sure you saw the Indian tri-car delivery van posted by Mr. B in his Davenport photos link...quite the beauty, appears to be circa 1906? It won't be long and we'll all be posting about your amazing "tadpole" brought to completion. I was reviewing your build a few nights ago & marveled at what you've constructed to date...it too is a beauty! Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

I did indeed see the Indian tri car with the delivery body. Mr. B is my de facto enabler when it comes to seeing all things Indian at Davenport. I was thinking that if there was an tri car traveling around Davenport for an hour or so and then back to the trailer to change the seat for a delivery body and make another couple of passes.

That should have the crowd wondering just what happened and how many fake Indian tri cars are traveling around. Add Silverbears Hiawatha tri car and we should have the crowd buzzing.

Thank you for your kind words. It's been a long road but the end is closer. Still working on it daily but haven.t had a chance to post anything.

Steve.

 

[Mr.B.]

I know I’ve posted about this before but couldn’t easily find it in a search (it might even be in the 1575 posts in this thread?)

Anyhoo there is an old machine shop for sale in my town that should be a museum, it’s been around for nearly 150 years. It had a major re-fit in 1904 and most of the machines are from that time, including a truly humungous lathe.

The only real updates where a replacement electric motor to drive the overhead pulleys and some fluorescent lighting and even that was decades ago.

And some of the tools are even older including a perfectly working keyway cutter from the 1870’s. Sadly the owner passed away a couple of years ago and it’s still on the market despite being in a trendy area that’s really being developed currently. I fear it will end up as condos or a Hipster boutique of some sort.

 

[indian22]

Mr. B I would have very much enjoyed spending some time with that old gentleman in his "world" ...a lot to be learned from his life experiences and now he's gone.

Lathe looks to be 8" bed or better & substantial. A lot of chips on the floor from that one. I suppose the original power source was coal powered & steam driven as was the shop engine I referred to...also eventually replaced by electric, long before my recollections or even birth. Shop looks well organized & uncluttered. "work clean to stay safe" is a great shop motto. Thank you for sharing these photos from a lost yet not quite forgotten time. I'll pray that it's preserved for posterity which has too long lived in a throw away world. My son once told me that my only interests were in old things & I replied that I liked new things as well but only displayed interest in them after they became old.

I also thank you for sharing the great photos from Davenport. They were a blessing. Rick C.

 

[indian22]

8 foot bed is a better estimate of length. lol Lousy keyboard skills & editing! Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

My family owned a saw and planing mill during WW2 into the early fifties. They were wholesale lumber dealers and during the war needed a secure source of wood. The mill was powered by steam supplied by a steam locomotive that had been used for years to pull logs out of the forest on a narrow gauge railroad by another company.

The wheels and running gear had been removed and the remains of the locomotive were set down on a concrete cradle and ran a donkey engine that powered the mill. The saw mill burned down and the planing mill was sold to another saw mill.

Dad often talked about the millwright who was illiterate and could barely sign his own name but when it came time to work out something like the ratios for the overhead line shafts would pick up a cut off from the planing mill and work out complicated mathematics.

Steve.

 

[fasteddy]

On the other side of the family my Mothers, Father was a tool and die maker who worked of a lighting manufacturer in Birmingham, England called Warnsworth Electric. When he left he was the shop foreman in charge of about 130 employees. Not bad for a kid who started there at 13 as an apprentice.

His job was to lead him to be the man in charge of installing the lighting in the Titanic. I asked him about the ship when I was about 16 and he looked at me with an absolutely haunted look on his face and I left the room and never mentioned it again. Years later I read that all the vendors were to send at least 2 men with the ship in case anything went wrong on it's maiden voyage so they could do repairs.

I have often wondered if the look my grandfather gave me when I asked about the ship was because he would have been the person to unknowingly send at least 2 of his men to their deaths. My mother was 3 months and 3 weeks old when the ship sank and when she was older my Grandmother said that it was the only time she saw him cry. I wish I knew the whole story but I never asked my Mother what happened.

Steve.

 

[curtisfox]

KOOOL seeing that old shop. We have a sash and door co. here that still has the overhead belt drive pulleys in place. And still use one of the tools shaper i think, i go there once and a while for special needs. like panel glue up run through the door sander............Curt