UPS says that the spindles will be at the mail drop off on the 16th and I'll be able to pick it up on the 17th.
Steve.
Steve.
Indian Tadpole
- Thread starter silverbear
- Start date
The spindles and tie rod ends were there and I did pick them up. I'm going to add some tubing to the bottom of them so I can put steering arms on them. The way they are now they would be too short when they are centered on the axle and the tie rods rods would hit the frame. I'm going to sand blast the zinc plating off where they will be welded. You only get sick from the zinc fumes once if your smart. Not at all if you're smarter. 
The steering arms that are on them now will be used to mount the calipers for the disc brakes. I hope!
I had to change the springs for the seat. The first set held the seat up in the air to the point where you almost needed a step to get in and didn't look like the originals as much as I wanted so I made another form and made up a couple more sets. Much happier with them now.
On to fitting the spindles. I bought them from BMI Karts.
Click on the photo and it will take you to photo bucket.
Steve.
The steering arms that are on them now will be used to mount the calipers for the disc brakes. I hope!
I had to change the springs for the seat. The first set held the seat up in the air to the point where you almost needed a step to get in and didn't look like the originals as much as I wanted so I made another form and made up a couple more sets. Much happier with them now.
On to fitting the spindles. I bought them from BMI Karts.
Click on the photo and it will take you to photo bucket.
Steve.
Seat springs look good, Steve. When you break new ground (or re-break old ground) there's a lot of head scratching and trial and error, isn't there! I've got to say you're one persistent son of a gun. Your perseverance and willingness to share both the right and the wrong turns will make it easier for those who follow. It also makes you appreciate even more those pioneer guys in the shop at Indian who made the first tri-cars. I suspect they had some right and wrong turns, too, and no doubt did a lot of 'creative staring'. You follow in a fine tradition, my friend. Looking forward to your further progress.
Theoretically summer is coming. I hope you're experiencing spring there in BC and have opportunities to do some welding. For awhile it looked like we were on the edge of spring, but winter is back with temps last night in the zero range and two feet of new snow night before last on top of the snow pack still on the ground. There's still three feet of ice on the lakes, so it will be some time yet before I can pull the Hiawatha tri-car out to get any real work done. Summer is a glory here when it finally arrives, but this year it's a long time coming. Patience...
SB
Theoretically summer is coming. I hope you're experiencing spring there in BC and have opportunities to do some welding. For awhile it looked like we were on the edge of spring, but winter is back with temps last night in the zero range and two feet of new snow night before last on top of the snow pack still on the ground. There's still three feet of ice on the lakes, so it will be some time yet before I can pull the Hiawatha tri-car out to get any real work done. Summer is a glory here when it finally arrives, but this year it's a long time coming. Patience...
SB
What is this "summer" you speak of, SB? Is she pretty?
good to see the spindles finally done, steve. and trial & error are your best friends in this situation. And pardon my ignorance, but what kind of motor are you using?
Ccd
good to see the spindles finally done, steve. and trial & error are your best friends in this situation. And pardon my ignorance, but what kind of motor are you using?
Ccd
Silverbear,
Thank you for the kind words. Yes, I often wonder how the engineers, machinists and owners at Indian and all the other motorcycle makers did what they did with what was available to them at the time.
No super machines or the high end materials that are available today and none of the 100+ years of experience that we have now. Must have been many let's try this and see if it works attempts and many old hands in the workshops that knew by instinct what would and wouldn't work.
Over the years I've met many of the old hands that taught me my trade. Some would stand beside you and show you where you went wrong and some who never said a word but let you watch how they did it and the others who wouldn't let you see anything they did.
I learned from them all. The first two I learned to restore antique furniture. The last bunch I learned to share what I learned with everyone in case they wanted to try it. That way they had some warning what didn't work.
My mothers, father was a tool and die maker in England where he started at the age of 13 in the 1890's. He ran a school for the apprentices after work hours and Saturdays in later years where he worked to help them get ahead, training as many as 30 at a time.
He was also the man in charge of installing the lighting in the Titanic for his company. I often wished that he would have talked about what he did and saw but never would.
Maybe that's where sharing what I learned came from.
My brother was giving me a razzing about redoing the springs but then that's me. I've pulled apart completed pieces of furniture as well that everyone but me was happy with. I stopped into see an old friend that I worked with who now runs his late fathers refinishing shop next to the machine shop that was going to build the spindles.
During our chat he said, have you ever met anyone more annal than furniture restorers?
Nope, we are as bad any restorers. Nothing left that isn't perfect. We all have perfected the art of "creative staring".
It's been a great spring in our little corner of the world. My brother has been mowing the lawn since early February and all the spring flowers have been up for quite a while now. Last year it rained constantly for most of the year and this year we are getting some sunny days and warmth early in the year.
Maybe this year it's our turn.
Steve.
Thank you for the kind words. Yes, I often wonder how the engineers, machinists and owners at Indian and all the other motorcycle makers did what they did with what was available to them at the time.
No super machines or the high end materials that are available today and none of the 100+ years of experience that we have now. Must have been many let's try this and see if it works attempts and many old hands in the workshops that knew by instinct what would and wouldn't work.
Over the years I've met many of the old hands that taught me my trade. Some would stand beside you and show you where you went wrong and some who never said a word but let you watch how they did it and the others who wouldn't let you see anything they did.
I learned from them all. The first two I learned to restore antique furniture. The last bunch I learned to share what I learned with everyone in case they wanted to try it. That way they had some warning what didn't work.
My mothers, father was a tool and die maker in England where he started at the age of 13 in the 1890's. He ran a school for the apprentices after work hours and Saturdays in later years where he worked to help them get ahead, training as many as 30 at a time.
He was also the man in charge of installing the lighting in the Titanic for his company. I often wished that he would have talked about what he did and saw but never would.
Maybe that's where sharing what I learned came from.
My brother was giving me a razzing about redoing the springs but then that's me. I've pulled apart completed pieces of furniture as well that everyone but me was happy with. I stopped into see an old friend that I worked with who now runs his late fathers refinishing shop next to the machine shop that was going to build the spindles.
During our chat he said, have you ever met anyone more annal than furniture restorers?
Nope, we are as bad any restorers. Nothing left that isn't perfect. We all have perfected the art of "creative staring".
It's been a great spring in our little corner of the world. My brother has been mowing the lawn since early February and all the spring flowers have been up for quite a while now. Last year it rained constantly for most of the year and this year we are getting some sunny days and warmth early in the year.
Maybe this year it's our turn.
Steve.
Hi Charlie.
Thank you. Your right about trial and error. It is kind of a merciless teacher but you certainly never forget the lesson especially if there are scars involved. Then again when you meet old friends years later and the first thing they say is, remember the time that you...... You certainly remember the teacher that taught the lesson.
Like your Henderson build. Will you be riding it this summer?
Fellow member Rick of RicksRides is building me a 98cc Jacobson snow blower motor with a shaved flywheel and an automatic clutch. It will fit snug against the seat post like the original motor did and fit the look much better than the Sachs 98cc I was going to use.
He also builds a lot of trikes and has helped with advice.
Steve
Thank you. Your right about trial and error. It is kind of a merciless teacher but you certainly never forget the lesson especially if there are scars involved. Then again when you meet old friends years later and the first thing they say is, remember the time that you...... You certainly remember the teacher that taught the lesson.
Like your Henderson build. Will you be riding it this summer?
Fellow member Rick of RicksRides is building me a 98cc Jacobson snow blower motor with a shaved flywheel and an automatic clutch. It will fit snug against the seat post like the original motor did and fit the look much better than the Sachs 98cc I was going to use.
He also builds a lot of trikes and has helped with advice.
Steve
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Can't wait to see your shaved down version sitting there on Steve's Indian. Still unsure of what I'm going to do with my stock Jacobsen... do a new build with it or replace the 99cc Predator engine on my American Flyer. 143cc's should give it some juice!
SB
SB, I vote for replacing the chinese preddy motor with it then it would be an "American Flyer" besides havin that preddy in there is blasphamy. That motor belongs in one of them chinese made walmart bikes,lol. Steves is sitting at the shop boxed up ready to ship. I just have to get to the Post. It has been busy as heck lately, had to take a brake for a bit today Ill be there this afternoon bout 1pm till 1-2 am or so.
Steves, will make twice the power of the stock one. it'll hit 6000rpm with little effort. I'm anxious to sit it in there as well it sure look somewhat correct.
Steves, will make twice the power of the stock one. it'll hit 6000rpm with little effort. I'm anxious to sit it in there as well it sure look somewhat correct.
Hi Rick.
Wow. It's a 143cc. Great smoking back tire. Who wants to be the first passenger? I'll buy the beer afterwards.
If Silverbear has one in the American Flyer, the hills around Eagle Nest Lake #3 will be alive with the sound of Jacobson's at full throttle and that would be music to my ears.
Still messing with the spindles and this weekend I'll get some steel to make the steering arms so with luck there will be something to show for it early next week.
Steve.
Wow. It's a 143cc. Great smoking back tire.
Who wants to be the first passenger? I'll buy the beer afterwards.If Silverbear has one in the American Flyer, the hills around Eagle Nest Lake #3 will be alive with the sound of Jacobson's at full throttle and that would be music to my ears.
Still messing with the spindles and this weekend I'll get some steel to make the steering arms so with luck there will be something to show for it early next week.
Steve.
Rick,
Regarding the stock Jacobsen in my American Flyer. It would look about right since the bike is 1950 and no attempt is being made to look like something else. Do you think there would be a notable power gain over the 99cc Preddy? This bike has a canoe sidecar, so I'm mostly interested in quick throttle response and hill climbing... not top speed. What do you think? Much useable power gain?
SB
Regarding the stock Jacobsen in my American Flyer. It would look about right since the bike is 1950 and no attempt is being made to look like something else. Do you think there would be a notable power gain over the 99cc Preddy? This bike has a canoe sidecar, so I'm mostly interested in quick throttle response and hill climbing... not top speed. What do you think? Much useable power gain?
SB
the throttle response on a 2 smoker is quicker then most 4 strokes, the preddy in stock form makes 2.8hp the jacobsens weve tested in stock trim w/governer make 4+ thats nearly 50% more power. If youre not looking to change youre top end, you will need to change the gearing as your preddy tacks to 3600rpm and the jacobsen tacks to 4500rpm. bottom end acceleration as well as hill climbing ability would improve by a decsent margine
Thanks Rick.
Sounds like it would be a big improvement. Since it is my daily rider I won't make the switch until either the Indian Hiawatha or the 34 Elgin is roadworthy. It would be best then to leave the governor control intact, is that right?
SB
Sounds like it would be a big improvement. Since it is my daily rider I won't make the switch until either the Indian Hiawatha or the 34 Elgin is roadworthy. It would be best then to leave the governor control intact, is that right?
SB
Ya, just leave it on unless you want 6000 rpm.
A cool thing about the governer on that engine is it has dual settings, jus flip the lever, on the snoblower it was called the POWERBURST mode, for deep snow. Use a choke cable to engage/disengage. It's preset from factory @3800rpm on the low setting & 4500rpm on the high setting all adjustable with the screw on the governer, lowering or raising both settings at once.
You can buy an electric tach for it on ebay (12$) great tool for tuning and everyday use
A cool thing about the governer on that engine is it has dual settings, jus flip the lever, on the snoblower it was called the POWERBURST mode, for deep snow. Use a choke cable to engage/disengage. It's preset from factory @3800rpm on the low setting & 4500rpm on the high setting all adjustable with the screw on the governer, lowering or raising both settings at once.
You can buy an electric tach for it on ebay (12$) great tool for tuning and everyday use
Well Fasteddy got to staring at the box of bits that went up to the machinist who was always going to do it next week. Perhaps unfortunately, creative staring became creative doing. Always a frightening and upon occasion, terrifying, thought around our house.
Here's how it happened but first, when I mention with 1" tubing and 1" pipe there is a difference.
Pipe is measured on the inside and has a thicker wall and tubing is measured on the outside diameter and comes in 1/6" or 1/8" wall so when I mention pipe or tubing that's why.
Now how I did it. When it came time to drill a hole in the pipe my little machinist vise had a hard time holding it due to the diameter so it was necessary to come up with something that would work. I took a short piece of 2x4 and screwed it to some scrap 3/4" plywood. Then the pipe went next to that and then another short piece of 2x4 was clamped to the whole thing. Then that piece of 2x4 was screwed to the plywood so it couldn't move. Used the 2x4's as a guide to measure the middle of the pipe and center punched it after measuring down from the top of the pipe to find where the center point was..
I used a metal cutting hole saw to cut the holes and made sure that there was full contact with the blade to make sure that it was centered. If there wasn't a perfect circle when it made contact with the pipe it wasn't dead center.
I bought some heavy walled 1" tubing to extend the steering on the tricars. It has a 3/4" inside diameter and has been a life saver any times. Used an 1-1/2" piece to use as a shoulder to mount the axle on the spindle. I was working on the mortise and tenon joint used with furniture where if you make a socket joint it has a lot more strength that something that is surface mounted.
The tubing and the bolt for the axle had to be fish mouthed to clear the king pin as it went past. I drilled two holes in the tubing so it could be rosette welded to the axle and then it was welded around the fish mouth to hold the axle in the tubing. To make sure it would clear I pushed a short length of the tubing up inside and used the hole to judge just where the fish mouth was in relationship to where the king pin would go. Then I welded the tubing to the pipe on the outside. The weld on the fish mouth required some light grinding to clear the king pin.
Any further clean up grinding that had to be done I did with a rotary file chucked into a drill. Fortunately the weld was just in reach of the file. A half round file would work just as well.
When it was time weld the axle in I slid a short piece of tubing over the bolt and squared it up that way. It compensated for the pipe shoulder. The side to side squareness was just eye balled.
The bottom of the king pin will have a short length of tubing like the top and will be held in place with a roll pin so it can be removed at any time.
Why didn't I use the spindles from BMI? Well first there was the challenge of making my own, also as my brother just pointed out I not the sharpest cotton ball in the bag and the king pin needs a bushing to help make the steering easier than metal to metal and that would have left me with a very long, thin 5/8" king pin that may have warped and caused the spindle to bind as the king pin bent from the force and weight.
There it is. I have posted some photos of what I did and how and one of the spindles mounted. If you want to read what I wrote on some of the photos look on the right side of the photo and if it says MORE click on it and the printing will come up. You will need to do this only if there are periods after the print that is there.
The new and improved Photobucket???
As always click on the photo to go to Photobucket. Just a fast warning. The new Photobucket has decided to publish some of the pictures over and over again.
Steve.
Here's how it happened but first, when I mention with 1" tubing and 1" pipe there is a difference.
Pipe is measured on the inside and has a thicker wall and tubing is measured on the outside diameter and comes in 1/6" or 1/8" wall so when I mention pipe or tubing that's why.
Now how I did it. When it came time to drill a hole in the pipe my little machinist vise had a hard time holding it due to the diameter so it was necessary to come up with something that would work. I took a short piece of 2x4 and screwed it to some scrap 3/4" plywood. Then the pipe went next to that and then another short piece of 2x4 was clamped to the whole thing. Then that piece of 2x4 was screwed to the plywood so it couldn't move. Used the 2x4's as a guide to measure the middle of the pipe and center punched it after measuring down from the top of the pipe to find where the center point was..
I used a metal cutting hole saw to cut the holes and made sure that there was full contact with the blade to make sure that it was centered. If there wasn't a perfect circle when it made contact with the pipe it wasn't dead center.
I bought some heavy walled 1" tubing to extend the steering on the tricars. It has a 3/4" inside diameter and has been a life saver any times. Used an 1-1/2" piece to use as a shoulder to mount the axle on the spindle. I was working on the mortise and tenon joint used with furniture where if you make a socket joint it has a lot more strength that something that is surface mounted.
The tubing and the bolt for the axle had to be fish mouthed to clear the king pin as it went past. I drilled two holes in the tubing so it could be rosette welded to the axle and then it was welded around the fish mouth to hold the axle in the tubing. To make sure it would clear I pushed a short length of the tubing up inside and used the hole to judge just where the fish mouth was in relationship to where the king pin would go. Then I welded the tubing to the pipe on the outside. The weld on the fish mouth required some light grinding to clear the king pin.
Any further clean up grinding that had to be done I did with a rotary file chucked into a drill. Fortunately the weld was just in reach of the file. A half round file would work just as well.
When it was time weld the axle in I slid a short piece of tubing over the bolt and squared it up that way. It compensated for the pipe shoulder. The side to side squareness was just eye balled.
The bottom of the king pin will have a short length of tubing like the top and will be held in place with a roll pin so it can be removed at any time.
Why didn't I use the spindles from BMI? Well first there was the challenge of making my own, also as my brother just pointed out I not the sharpest cotton ball in the bag and the king pin needs a bushing to help make the steering easier than metal to metal and that would have left me with a very long, thin 5/8" king pin that may have warped and caused the spindle to bind as the king pin bent from the force and weight.
There it is. I have posted some photos of what I did and how and one of the spindles mounted. If you want to read what I wrote on some of the photos look on the right side of the photo and if it says MORE click on it and the printing will come up. You will need to do this only if there are periods after the print that is there.
The new and improved Photobucket???
As always click on the photo to go to Photobucket. Just a fast warning. The new Photobucket has decided to publish some of the pictures over and over again.
Steve.
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Steve,
As you may have heard my older brother Jon say to me, " You know, you're a lot smarter than you look!" Ha! Pretty good, Bud! I'm glad you're in charge of this part of the tri-car project and not me. The duct tape and cardboard I was picturing probably wouldn't have held up anyway.
Spring hath finally sprung here in northeastern Minnesota and I'm itching to tinker with the Hiawatha tri-car. The snowpack is melting pretty fast now and in another week I should be able to roll out the Hiawatha onto bare ground.
Curtis Fox is hoping to finish up the leaf spring fork for me this spring and once I have that in hand I can finish up the front fender for the bikes use in two wheel mode. He's going to be sending along a half inch conduit bender which I want to use to bend fender struts to duplicate the curved struts on the original Hiawatha.
I'm also experimenting with making a brass headlight to go with the leaf spring fork. Just got it today from ebay. It is a brass spittoon which I will make a tiffany styled lens for. Lens will have a circle of clear glass in the center surrounded by a starburst in stained glass with the edge of each piece wrapped in copper foil and soldered together. The world's first Tiffany spittoon headlight and you'll see it here in living color. Woohoo. I'm getting psyched about our builds. Motorbike summer camp is coming... woohoo! Keep up the great work, Steve. I want to see that camel back in paint with Rick's Jacobsen engine mounted and ready to fire up. I was thinking that we can do the seat upholstery here come summer.
SB
As you may have heard my older brother Jon say to me, " You know, you're a lot smarter than you look!" Ha! Pretty good, Bud! I'm glad you're in charge of this part of the tri-car project and not me. The duct tape and cardboard I was picturing probably wouldn't have held up anyway.
Spring hath finally sprung here in northeastern Minnesota and I'm itching to tinker with the Hiawatha tri-car. The snowpack is melting pretty fast now and in another week I should be able to roll out the Hiawatha onto bare ground.
Curtis Fox is hoping to finish up the leaf spring fork for me this spring and once I have that in hand I can finish up the front fender for the bikes use in two wheel mode. He's going to be sending along a half inch conduit bender which I want to use to bend fender struts to duplicate the curved struts on the original Hiawatha.
I'm also experimenting with making a brass headlight to go with the leaf spring fork. Just got it today from ebay. It is a brass spittoon which I will make a tiffany styled lens for. Lens will have a circle of clear glass in the center surrounded by a starburst in stained glass with the edge of each piece wrapped in copper foil and soldered together. The world's first Tiffany spittoon headlight and you'll see it here in living color. Woohoo. I'm getting psyched about our builds. Motorbike summer camp is coming... woohoo! Keep up the great work, Steve. I want to see that camel back in paint with Rick's Jacobsen engine mounted and ready to fire up. I was thinking that we can do the seat upholstery here come summer.
SB
I found the cure for the multiple posts in the previous post. Don't know what happened.
Here are some photos of the spindles. As I said the inside diameter was fortunately 1-1/6".
That's because the bronze bushings are 1-1/8". Boy, was I thrilled beyond belief when I saw that. Now what? More heavy duty creative staring and then a thought formed, if I took a 1-1/8" hole saw and ran it down the inside of the pipe it should work. Yep, except and there is always an except in these things, the hole saw wouldn't start, so more creative staring.
Thank Heavens for the advance creative staring at bicycle camp taught by our own Silverbear. I chucked the rotary file in the drill and chamfered the inside of the pipe so it had a slight funnel shape. Now the hole saw fit and it bored the pipe out .
I had to keep trying the bushing to see if I'd gone to far.
Now the warning if you try this. The hole was NOT pretty unless you count pretty ragged. I lined the hole with JB Weld and pushed the bushings in. Then the king pins went in to line up the bushings while the JB Weld was soft and I left it.
Perfect so far. Once it's on the road we will all know more but so far it seems to have worked. Put the bushings in and then the king pin to make sure that it is all straight and not off on an angle. That happened to me.
Thankfully before the JB Weld was in.
Steve
Here are some photos of the spindles. As I said the inside diameter was fortunately 1-1/6".
That's because the bronze bushings are 1-1/8". Boy, was I thrilled beyond belief when I saw that. Now what? More heavy duty creative staring and then a thought formed, if I took a 1-1/8" hole saw and ran it down the inside of the pipe it should work.
Yep, except and there is always an except in these things, the hole saw wouldn't start, so more creative staring.Thank Heavens for the advance creative staring at bicycle camp taught by our own Silverbear. I chucked the rotary file in the drill and chamfered the inside of the pipe so it had a slight funnel shape. Now the hole saw fit and it bored the pipe out .
I had to keep trying the bushing to see if I'd gone to far.
Now the warning if you try this. The hole was NOT pretty unless you count pretty ragged. I lined the hole with JB Weld and pushed the bushings in. Then the king pins went in to line up the bushings while the JB Weld was soft and I left it.
Perfect so far. Once it's on the road we will all know more but so far it seems to have worked. Put the bushings in and then the king pin to make sure that it is all straight and not off on an angle. That happened to me.
Thankfully before the JB Weld was in.
Steve
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Silverbear,
I'm afraid to look back and see when I started this build. It seems like it was at least one lifetime ago but seeing the spindle on the bike it now seems that it wasn't that long ago.
I guess that every builder reaches that tipping point where you do something to the build and the build comes together like you started it last week. My feeling with the spindles.
I'm off tomorrow to get the metal for the tie rods and the steering arms. I want to get that out of the way and then it's on to the seat and get that completed.
I certainly can see the bike painted and Ricks motor sitting in there pulling it all together.
Spring certainly has staggered into parts of the country hasn't it. Our Midwestern provinces have paid the price for spring as well. Now there is flooding adding to the misery.
Now your involved in fender benders?
As I said the hills around Eagles nest Lake #3 will be alive with the sound of Jacobson's this summer.
Steve.
I'm afraid to look back and see when I started this build. It seems like it was at least one lifetime ago but seeing the spindle on the bike it now seems that it wasn't that long ago.
I guess that every builder reaches that tipping point where you do something to the build and the build comes together like you started it last week. My feeling with the spindles.
I'm off tomorrow to get the metal for the tie rods and the steering arms. I want to get that out of the way and then it's on to the seat and get that completed.
I certainly can see the bike painted and Ricks motor sitting in there pulling it all together.
Spring certainly has staggered into parts of the country hasn't it. Our Midwestern provinces have paid the price for spring as well. Now there is flooding adding to the misery.
Now your involved in fender benders?
As I said the hills around Eagles nest Lake #3 will be alive with the sound of Jacobson's this summer.
Steve.
I did look back to see when this all started and the first post was back around the first of March 2010 when Silverbear started posting when we were starting to talk about how to do the build. Yipes, we were just kids when we started this.
Old Kids
Steve.
Old Kids
Steve.
Ah yes, 1910. I remember it well. We were yet lads still wet behind the ears, freshly graduated from the school of life. And here we are three years later and finally have an idea of what we're doing.
I was thinking about my tri-car last night, about what it's future should be. I don't think I'd want to sell it, doesn't seem right. Too much dreaming and hard work has gone into it for that. I'll find someone to leave it to who will take care of it and who will remember the old guys who made it. Probably my youngest son. We'll see. Plenty of time to figure that out as I intend to still be riding this into my 90's. Maybe turn it over when I hit a hundred. And maybe not. Gear it down some it would make a **** of a wheel chair!
SB
I was thinking about my tri-car last night, about what it's future should be. I don't think I'd want to sell it, doesn't seem right. Too much dreaming and hard work has gone into it for that. I'll find someone to leave it to who will take care of it and who will remember the old guys who made it. Probably my youngest son. We'll see. Plenty of time to figure that out as I intend to still be riding this into my 90's. Maybe turn it over when I hit a hundred. And maybe not. Gear it down some it would make a **** of a wheel chair!
SB