Indian Hiawatha

[silverbear]

We’ll that ended pretty abruptly, didn’t it? The last post on this thread was back in September of 2017 and here we are in 2022. A lot of water has passed under the bridge in the time between. I’ve been reading in the Indian Tadpole thread and came to the point where I split it off into this thread as it was confusing to people with two different Indian inspired builds going in different directions… and to keep some continuity for myself I came over to this one and read it through today. Tomorrow I’ll back to the tadpole thread to catch up on Steve’s build. It was a real trip down memory lane today remaining me of things I had forgotten and giving an opportunity to once again spend some time with old friends.

I particularly enjoyed following along on the construction of Tinsmith’s wonderful copper gas tank and pictured in my mind conversations we had in his shop as a fire burned in the wood stove, interupted now and then by one of the dogs wanting someone to play fetch with. Do some work and then break for lunch and story telling with a nice meal prepared by his wife Jackie. We all of us looked forward to Saturdays and although we usually just worked for a couple of hours it was always productive and a learning experience for me. I have said before that the best parts of this build were due to the skill and artistry of Dan and Steve and that their fingerprints are all over the bike.

People refer to this as my build, but it is as much my friends’ build… where would it be without Steve’s welding and understanding of the mechanical aspects of designing a machine for riding off into the sunset when all is done? Without their work that bike wouldn’t be anything like what you see. I can never thank them enough for their contribution and even more for their friendship. And of course there is another character in this story who did her part… Aaniimoosh the wonder dog. Sweet Miss Mooshie, my biker babe.

 

[indian22]

Great threads are your specialty Silver bear!
Wonderful builds as well....
Rick C.

 

[silverbear]

The last time I actually ran it was the same day I took some photos by a little fish pond at the caretaking property in Maryland.

I thought it was a thing of real beauty and was proud of what we had done…
but also disappointed that there was some kind of clutch or transmission glitch so that it was also the last time I ran the engine and now years have passed.
So what happened? Life…that’s what. Life happened. Perhaps Steve will weigh in on happenings in his life and health that intervened and I will outline happenings in mine. For family reasons one season of summer camp was cancelled and then there were medical issues for both of us. For me a second heart attack screwed things up while Steve was dealing with his own medical problems. While we waited for our health issues to straighten out I backed off from bike work and just rode some and spent a lot of time fooling around with sail canoes, fishing and trying to get stronger. And during this time I met a lady and got really distracted. As children we had both spent summers on Ojibwa Lake north of Ely, Mn, but didn’t know each other then and didn’t meet until Mooshie and I went back to the lake to do some camping and fooling around on the water A few summers ago. Anyway, Sue and I met as elders and the rest is history. We lived together at her home in Wisconsin the following winter and ended up selling her home and moving to Ely where we bought a house in town. Thyroid cancer set me back a good bit and I no more than recovered from that than I was diagnosed with stage four lymphoma cancer and spent a miserable winter doing chemo. Building bikes was far from my thoughts at the time. Amazingly I came through that and am now cancer free. Had a good summer renovating a cabin on Eagles Nest Lake purchased from my brother and this fall and early winter have gotten involved again with bikes….trikes actually, recumbent tadpole trikes given to us by her sister and brother in law when they purchased new ones. I’m doing a thread on their conversion to electric assist (Electric Terratrike Rover) and having some fun with that learning about electrics. So that brings us to the present time. Each summer since 2017 Steve and I hope it will be the one where we can get together for some bike work and get these Indian Tadpoles done finally. Who would have thought it would take this long? Why we were young fellows when we started on them! I’ve told myself that I’m too old now for two wheeled gas bikes… too hard swinging a leg over the seat and too likely to lose my balance and end up hospitalized…too this and too that. Then I go down to the basement and see old builds sitting there in a state of neglect. Sometimes I look and smile inside remembering the fun we had putting them together and at other times I feel sad both that those days are gone and that the bikes collect dust as air slowly leaks out of the tires.

It doesn’t feel right that the Indian Hiawatha was never really finished, especially considering how far we got. And to think that the seat Steve built for the tri-car front end has been sitting patiently in Canada a-

waiting union with the rest of the build. It was supposed to hearken back to those first tri-cars Indian built, what had inspired us in the first place. Not a replica, but in the spirit of. And we did that! But we didn’t finish them…. Yet. I’m thinking perhaps we really need to.
SB

 

[fasteddy]

When I was a young I used to hear the elders around me say that you could defeat anything in life but death and illness. Here we are and yes, they were right about that. Now my right knee is painful and I'm waiting to see if the bone infection has taken up residence there.

The seat has residence in the trailer. I'll have to look in this week end and see how the seat's slumber is doing and hoping the leg holds up. We'll know more tomorrow because I have a day in the garage planned.

There is great hope amongst the medical professionals that the plague may be running it self out and we will see. Hopefully it does and we can once again join up on the shores of Eagle Lake #3 under the pines by the birches and relive the glory days of Summer camp for boys that never grow old and we'll have to figure out just who the old, bald guy with the red shirt is.

Summers coming.

Steve.

 

[indian22]

Great posts guys, these aren't little things.

Rick C.

 

[silverbear]

I lay awake some in the early morning hours thinking about the bike. I have a lot on my plate right now with recumbent trike conversions to electric assist and building lithium batteries, but by spring all that will be over with and I can turn my attention elsewhere...
...and I think that elsewhere is in the basement gathering dust. Why not keep tinkering with the Indian a bit at a time during winter days or evenings when it is too cold to heat up the shop for other projects even with the wood stove burning hot? There have been lots of below zero days this winter with over a week straight at the minus mid twenties in the night. If nothing else at the present time I can turn the bike upside down and get that back tire back on the rim before the sidewall starts cracking. Then check some things over and see why the drive chain is disconnected. I thought again about the problem of pedal starting it and think the idea of a 24v hub motor in back is a good idea. I'm going to check to see if there's room in the cylindrical copper "tool box"behind the seat to be sure there's enough room for a lithium battery. That would solve the engine starting problem (assuming it still runs). And if I left the bike in tri-car tadpole mode on three wheels most of the time getting on and off the seat and balance issues are at a minimum. It would be fun riding around the back streets here in town or going to the hardware or grocery store. Maybe even swallow hard and ride it in a parade (and maybe not since I don't like crowds of humans. A bunch of fish or birds is good, but people not so much). Anyway, I like the thought of riding it finally and when it is time to pass it on to someone younger it is best if it is looking and running fine. I think so. Yes. We'll see if I keep feeling this way.

Thanks for the nice comments, you guys up in the peanut gallery.

Steve, we both hope for summer camp to materialize and we both know from past experience that it may not happen. I don't want to be greedy, but it sure would be nice to do it again. That old bald guy in red used to work around here. Darned good welder and full of interesting if improbable stories. Who cares if they be true so long as the telling is good? True that Miss Mooshie is no longer with us but she would be in spirit. I don't want you to feel a burden of pressure to make that long trek all the way from BC. Airplanes work, too, and I could pick you up at Duluth, a hundred miles from here. It would be so good to see you, my friend. I wonder if there's a way to bring that seat you made for the tri-car as carry on? Doubtful. What about as luggage? Seriously, what do you suppose it would cost to ship that seat here and by what means? Rail? Give it some thought.

Curt, I wonder if you ever finished making that front wheel leaf spring? If so, do you still have it? That was coming along so nicely as I recall.

I think, too, I'm going to be on the lookout for a rear hub motor for the Indian. 24v. is best I think since it is just for starting purposes or a short run in case a chain breaks or something like that. I used to be able to lace a wheel and can probably do it again. Finding a used hub motor may take awhile, but as always money is an issue. Keep the hub and battery on the small side.

Enough old man babbling. One way or another let's finish these Indians, Steve.
SB

 

[curtisfox]

Yes pretty much done, and still here. I can finish and send them to you, I made and finishing different rockers. And things changed just like everything else, waylaid. Good thing as I am going to clean up my mess this summer and get stuff gone, that I don't no longer need or use. I am 80 now, and although I still pedal my pedal bike in the summer to keep fit. Steve's friend arther is getting in the way sometimes. Not as far as I use to............Curt

 

[silverbear]

Tires are pumped up and so am I…
I measured the tool box opening and think a 6s3p lithium battery will fit’… great!

Then I noticed the engine drive chain and had second thoughts. i think that’s an adjustable manic mechanic sprocket deal ( or maybe I got it from Pat…don’t recall where it came from) but that certainly won’t fit over a hub motor. So how would I align the drive chain? Don’t know. Maybe a hub motor won’t work.

Curt, great that you still have that leaf spring fork. 80!!! How did that happen? You’re going to be an old guy in a few years, Grandpa…
SB

 

[curtisfox]

LOL Great-granddaughter is 13, ya sorta snuck up on me..........Curt

 

[indian22]

Silver bear I run a front hub motor and a rear gas China doll motor to the rear sprocket adapter. Works a charm to start the gas motor and you're right you don't need a big e motor hub for starting the gas motor (bump start) or for pulling away from a dead stop without slipping the clutch. I use two throttles one for electric and one for the gas engine. Really kinda' like the early bikes which had one twist grip for carb and another for spark advance. I've ridden this setup for many miles and it really works well.
The first photo is version one hybrid with 36 v battery on the down tube. Batteries are now in leather saddle bags on rear rack (2nd. photo).

 

[silverbear]

Rick, that's a nice setup. The problem for me as I see it is not understanding how it can work on the rear hub where I suspect it needs to be if I'm going to use the bike mostly as a three wheeler. As a two wheeler it would be simple enough to put the motor up front. But how would that work as a tadpole? Two front motors ( one on each wheel) would be pricey and requite more battery power I would think. Or would just one motorized front wheel work? Is there a way to do it on the rear wheel and still be able to pedal and also have it driven by the gas motor? It's a lot to ask of one wheel, I know, but would be sweet if it could me made to work.
SB

 

[indian22]

SB you can drive two e hubs using one battery, single throttle and one controller, so two hub kits are required. I would say a 36v 20 amp hour battery would be adequate and appropriate.

One front wheel drive just won't work with hub/wheel drive, 1 motor central drive yes but quite a project.

The single rear hub is a bit more complex given that you want to be able to pedal and use both engines either individually or in combination with each other and be able to bump start the gas engine as well.

The rear e hub normally comes with a 5, 6 or 7speed sprocket cassette for pedal assist and this adds to the frame width necessary at the axle drops, so it makes sense to remove this cassette and go to a single speed sprocket on a freewheel clutch. At some point you will have to choose between a using a Jack shaft to drive the pedal side chain or use a separate motor drive chain as you had originally intended to drive the Manic hub adapter and sprocket. This can and has been done but requires using a sprocket adapter plate bolted to the e hub and using the disc rotor bolt pattern to secure the sprocket. Though these bolts are very tiny they must have great shear strength to withstand full break stops on bikes. That said the brake bolts are quite short as rotors are very thin and sprockets are 4 times thicker. I would find appropriate length bolts to enable complete bolt up. The greater the shear strength of these bolts the better. If you go this route using brake bolt pattern will require accurate drilling of the pattern to the sprocket. Also the sprocket must allow drive chain alignment to clear tire and chain. Next is getting the motor sprocket to align with rear sprocket and this could and probably will require engine offset or a reduction type gear sprocket machined to your specific setup. Then it's time to fine tune it all. There are several steps in this that I'll be glad to share if this sounds a good plan.

Running the Jack shaft to the pedal side has it's advantages as well as disadvantage and problems. It's been done many times for shifter kits so lots of info available. Also glad to help once you narrow it down.

My opinion and it's just my guess that you will spend more and get less from the rear drive setup no matter how you accomplish it by design. The rear setup will take some significant time to get perfect. The dual motor setup has it's own problems with designing an adequate mechanical connection to the two motor hubs. The easy way is repurpose two bike forks and run fenders to hide the fact lol. Mechanical connection from the fork type system to steering will take some thought as well.

Probably too much info at one time, but as I said glad to help.

Great project!

Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

How about a mid drive in front of the BB to drive right side, pedal side, and free wheel it.???...............Curt Just a thought, thinking out loud.

 

[silverbear]

Somehow lying abed in the pre dawn helps in thinking a problem through. I realize now that I’m complicating and making something even harder to do and less likely to ever be finished. No, I won’t be doing an electric start with a hub motor or any other. It’s a nice idea and if time and money were in abundance then it would be interesting fun. But no, not at this point in my life. I have too much to finish as it is, both on the Hiawatha and on other projects Including recumbent trikes, a quadracycle and a cabin at the lake to finish remodeling.

Starting the Hiawatha is within my powers if it is in tri-car mode with the front two wheels in place. Dropping the fold down center kick stand will raise up the rear wheel off the ground. In two wheel mode as a bicycle with just one wheel up front it is rear heavy, but the other way around and the heavy front end will tip the balance the other way… which means that I can turn the pedal by hand to start the motor and leaves me in a position to operate the compression release valve, throttle and choke mechanism while standing next to the bike. Once running I can remove it from choke, release the locking brake, push it forward a bit to release the kickstand which will spring back up, climb aboard and give it gas as I release and let out the locking clutch. If the engine is running well and starts easily then there shouldn’t be a problem starting it even for an old fellow. Keep it simple. And compared to trying to make it electric start the price is a whole lot better. So I think that’s clear enough and the way to proceed.

And I do want to proceed on the Hiawatha. There are little things I can do while it is in the basement and next summer when the recumbent trikes are out of the shop I’ll get some help from a couple young fellows in bringing the Hiawatha up from the basement and out to the shop where I can tinker at will. And if I can figure a way to get that wicker seat here from Canada then I can get that affixed and have a place to comfortably sit while taking a break from tinkering in me man cave which even has a fire view wood stove in colder weather. Now that’s a plan! And I think it is doable, focusing on what is needed to make it a rider with functional drive train, good brakes and lights. Not that much, really. In my mind’s eye I see a day when the shop doors are swung open, the Hiawatha is rolled out and started up. Sue settles into the wicker seat and we putter off to seize the day…. It is nice just thinking about it.
SB

 

[silverbear]

Rick and Curt, thanks for your input and helping me think this through.
SB

 

[indian22]

No problem SB I think you thought it true and running trumps storage.

Rick C.

 

[fasteddy]

I believe you had a problem with the transmission shifting when you had it running and took the cover off it and found a part buried in the old grease. I was going to suggest a rear bike stand like I have and spinning the pedal.

The Indian will be started with a drill on the flywheel nut because the old fella isn't going to pedal either.

Don't give up on summer yet. It won't be a long bike camp but with some planning it will be a productive one. Memory serves me correctly we have to weld the seat mounts on the axle and bolt the seat on. I don't think we worked on fender mounts so that is a consideration for you if you can find fenders you like and figure out how we can mount them.

To ship the seat will not be inexpensive. The wood to crate it wouldn't be either. It would be in the hundreds of dollars to get it there.

On the Indian I mounted the outside fender strut to the axle using a large washer which I have a lot of and the inside strut to the top of the spindle. I can fabricate those up before I come down. I was trying to figure out how to replicate the Hiawatha curved fender struts when everything went off the rails. I'll have to look at that again. It would add miles of wow to the build.

I did look for original fenders at the time and that added a considerable amount of wow and a couple of, you have to be joking, as well. I think I purchased tubing to make them and I'll have to look again to see if I still have it. Can you send me a photo of the the rear fender struts and how wide and how long they are. I believe they just riveted to the sides of the fender. I was trying to work out a way to split the tubing after it was bent and small metal cutting band saws were not inexpensive. Not a hurry because It will be a while before I get to it but now the fire has been lit that's not a guarantee.

Steve.

 

[Tom from Rubicon]

The Firm.

 

[silverbear]

Would you buy a used car from those guys???
SB

 

[indian22]

Trips to win!

Rick C