Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

indian22 · Mar 4, 2020

I'm trying to get out in front with my posts, but keep falling behind. I'd really like the younger energy of me 40 years ago to keep pace, but guess I'll settle for now & try to work smarter.

Early Spring here the fat rodent appears to have finally predicted one correctly, but that means additional possibilities of more violent weather and Indian Territory get's more than enough of that as our typical weather patterns.

I mentioned many posts previously that I'd position the motor a bit right of center in the frame about an inch and that's where it's currently nestled. The intake rockers and plugs well away from the frame tubes as were many of the early V-twins with the F-head design engines. With the weight so low in the frame the felt balance shouldn't be noticeable (most of the motor weight is located well below axle centerlines) I consider battery weight and rider weight combined as more relevant than just batteries alone, unless the bike is to be radio controlled. Rider weight is far more important in equations than component weights. I used to laugh at young pedal bikers that weighed in excess of two hundred pounds spending thousands of dollars for carbon & titanium parts to save perhaps 5 or 6 pounds of weight on an already light and expensive boutique frame, when they could take 25 pounds off at the gym and add muscle mass to boot for the price of membership and sweat.

Light and strong is good in a motor bike, but I see too many obsessing about weight with electrics especially and that's fed by the pedal bicycle industry now marketing electric bikes, because that's what they've done for decades with pedal bikes. It's how they justify the price of $7,000. 250 watt mid-drives featuring "quality" components and bike shop support to the self absorbed and conflicted buyers that read the blogs paid for by the manufacturers.

My rant and opinion, but other's decisions and $$. Hope they enjoy their purchase as much as I enjoy riding my builds. I promise that I'm not conflicted in my building or in my enjoyment of riding.

Rick C.

sportscarpat · Mar 4, 2020

PeteMcP said:
The friction damper adds so much interest to these SF springer forks.

I also find it's very necessary, as much for damping as for removing free play. These old designs have a lot of joints and even keeping tight tolerances you still get a bit of movement or slop between the front and rear blades. Adding the friction unit ties it all together real nice. Adds some damping and ties up the front to rear movement. As for how tight I like to run it, experience say tighter is better. I crank it pretty tight.

indian22 said:
Pat I'm so excited by your enthusiasm to get started on a bike built on the "deep dish" frame and it looks great to this point. Will this mount an electric or a large gas motor? Either way it'll be a beauty.

What's the wheel base & trail with the pictured fork?

Rick C.

At this point deep dish number two was quickly thrown together to get a feel for it. Nothing solid yet on what will power it but I like to keep a few things in R&D to play with. I do have plans for a different gas engine in it and maybe motorcycle tires.
Rake on this particular chassis with current spring length is 26 degrees and trail is about 3.5". Wheel base is currently 51.6".
Pat

PeteMcP · Mar 4, 2020

Rick,
Bike (or two) parked in the living room is the norm here! It's the only place I can work on it while keeping a safe eye on wife Jen at the same time. I only wheel it out of sight when expecting visitors (the bike, not Jen).

Pat, does your lever damper utilize any traditional friction material? Or does it just rely on being done up T.A.F. in old mechanic-speak?

sportscarpat · Mar 4, 2020

Not actual friction material. I use leather washers. The difference between the fork with and without the damper is very noticeable.

indian22 · Mar 4, 2020

I mounted a 90 degree quill with 75mm ahead dimension and though I'd prefer it set another 1" lower with 50mm ahead; it's not as distracting to my eye as the "gooseneck" riser/ahead stem was.

I've a nice Rich Phillips black leather, small bobber saddle as well in hand that I'll trial fit. Everything has to come apart at least one more time and some things will probably get wear on them from the fitting before finish, though I'll be careful.

Rick C.

indian22 · Mar 4, 2020

PeteMcP said:
Rick,
Bike (or two) parked in the living room is the norm here! It's the only place I can work on it while keeping a safe eye on wife Jen at the same time. I only wheel it out of sight when expecting visitors (the bike, not Jen).

Pat, does your lever damper utilize any traditional friction material? Or does it just rely on being done up T.A.F. in old mechanic-speak?

Pete I just warn visitors not to trip over my noir collection and go about our business. I've been known to adjust things during visits to speed folks along. Things to do and all that.

Nice associated benefit I'd not been aware of is a scissor dampers effect on some suspension forks rather generous tolerances (loose) in addition to damping properties.

Rick C.

indian22 · Mar 4, 2020

Saddle height is yet to be set, seat stays will be added at that height. Having a saddle in place and the bars lowered a lot allows me to be not so distracted by those two obvious items that needed to be added/ corrected and these are no longer the major visual sour points. Remember this bike will have two identities first a brakeless, bare bones 1915 look and when that's run it's course I'll add discs front and rear for daily riding. The only visible control with be an on off switch, perhaps a hacksaw blade , bound by leather wrap close to the right bar grip and no cable to the carb and no cables, brake levers period on the bars. Bare bones truss fork. The glass sediment bowl won't be mounted on the race bike, they could possibly shatter and catch fire in a wreck. Wiring will consist of two cloth covered spark plug leads running to the magneto housing and one ground wire running to the on /off hacksaw blade switch. That which was not a necessity for speed had no business on a real racer and paint was an after thought to show company identity not to look pretty and the same with polished metal or plating, just wasn't used to much extent on the real deals. Of course the drive off stand won't have a place on the racer. Oh yeah there won't be pedal side chain in the race configuration either. Both pedals positioned together and locked to hold a tuck securely positioned. Controls, etc. added when I get the bike back and turn it into a street bike, but I want to be able to swap identities with minimal effort, not that it's likely, but who knows. I might turn it into a floor lamp one day. It looks pretty good in the house as it is!

The chrome wheels/disc rotor and the large mass of the bright aluminum motor controller case are now the most offensive items on the bike,and of course will eventually be replaced (wheels) or altered (controller) to appear a believable part of a vintage racer, the lack of a fuel tank is also quite distracting to me at the moment. In the meantime toning down the colors & editing the shine out of my photos also helps me visualize and make a written list the areas that need more work. Working in grey tones helps me with contrast; while the list keeps me on track with, altering, fabricating and placing orders for the items I'll later require to complete the bike.

Current photos. The motor is T-shirt art.

Rick C.

indian22 · Mar 5, 2020

I found a wide black coaster wheel and ordered a front to match for the initial build. The roller chrome wheels had to go at some point anyway. I also found 50mm ahead stem that will lower the bar height 2" more and reduce the reach by 2" also, that should be where I want it height wise. I set the pedals as foot rests and decided on the saddle height. I'll cut the seat stays this weekend. While I was at it I removed the front rotor and raised the controller box. So it should look more the part of a racer by mid week next, if I don't disassemble everything before then. My list of to do's gets longer each day.

Rick C.

xuanvinh88 · Mar 6, 2020

indian22 said:
Saddle height is yet to be set, seat stays will be added at that height. Having a saddle in place and the bars lowered a lot allows me to be not so distracted by those two obvious items that needed to be added/ corrected and these are no longer the major visual sour points. Remember this bike will have two identities first a brakeless, bare bones 1915 look and when that's run it's course I'll add discs front and rear for daily riding. The only visible control with be an on off switch, perhaps a hacksaw blade , bound by leather wrap close to the right bar grip and no cable to the carb and no cables, brake levers period on the bars. Bare bones truss fork. The glass sediment bowl won't be mounted on the race bike, they could possibly shatter and catch fire in a wreck. Wiring will consist of two cloth covered spark plug leads running to the magneto housing and one ground wire running to the on /off hacksaw blade switch. That which was not a necessity for speed had no business on a real racer and paint was an after thought to show company identity not to look pretty and the same with polished metal or plating, just wasn't used to much extent on the real deals. Of course the drive off stand won't have a place on the racer. Oh yeah there won't be pedal side chain in the race configuration either. Both pedals positioned together and locked to hold a tuck securely positioned. Controls, etc. added when I get the bike back and turn it into a street bike, but I want to be able to swap identities with minimal effort, not that it's likely, but who knows. I might turn it into a floor lamp one day. It looks pretty good in the house as it is!

The chrome wheels/disc rotor and the large mass of the bright aluminum motor controller case are now the most offensive items on the bike,and of course will eventually be replaced (wheels) or altered (controller) to appear a believable part of a vintage racer, the lack of a fuel tank is also quite distracting to me at the moment. In the meantime toning down the colors & editing the shine out of my photos also helps me visualize and make a written list the areas that need more work. Working in grey tones helps me with contrast; while the list keeps me on track with, altering, fabricating and placing orders for the items I'll later require to complete the bike.

Current photos. The motor is T-shirt art.

Rick C.

View attachment 103819 View attachment 103820

Oh it looks great

indian22 · Mar 6, 2020

More stuff on the way and here next week. The rear wheel is a coaster so I can say whoa #@*% several times before stopping during testing and if that's too scary I'll temporarily add a front wheel mechanical disc and remove both the disc and coaster brake arm before it's picked up by the client. Three months later I'll set it up the way I want for safe daily riding.

Rick C.

Tom from Rubicon · Mar 9, 2020

PeteMcP said:
Rick,
Bike (or two) parked in the living room is the norm here! It's the only place I can work on it while keeping a safe eye on wife Jen at the same time. I only wheel it out of sight when expecting visitors (the bike, not Jen).

Pat, does your lever damper utilize any traditional friction material? Or does it just rely on being done up T.A.F. in old mechanic-speak?

Pete, the good man you are caring for Jen is an inspiration to all who have spouses with special needs.
Mona's Myeloma is getting better, and unlike Jen's condition is likely reversible. Prayers and Smoke for Jen and you.
Tom

indian22 · Mar 11, 2020

3" tire, black coaster wheel along with hub adaptor and 48 tooth sprocket were the big changes on the back end. I also added saddle hardware, including saddle stays, and removed the big aluminum controller box (I'll fabricate a box/mount to house it later, same location) mid-bike. While the forks received a wide black wheel and 2.5" tire. The handle bars were dropped another 1.5" on a 50mm ahead stem with zero rise and look/feel perfect for me. Saddle height was error and trial, where I wanted the saddle height was 2" lower , but the feel wasn't there and I wasn't real happy with the way it looked either so I changed it till I got it right for me.

Looks so different with the black wheels.

I'll take the motor assembly off today to make some additions and adjust a few things as well. I may throw a bit of protective coating on the inner workings too as I see no further internal modifications are required. I'd think fitting some motor drive chains and actual road testing is close at hand using 48v. stuff I have in hand ,battery and controller. I'll build a 72v. pack while it's being used for promotion along side the Indian Daytona replica (which is brightly polished in every detail) purchased earlier in Argentina. Since the Indian is red & shiny the Harley will be done out in matt black both frame and tank, to be in stark contrast with the Indian. This doesn't bother me as it was one of four finishing's offered the customer by HD at the time. My client needs it no later than June 1st. and that brings it back home to me by early Sept. I have at least two shows I plan to enter it in this Fall. I should have the 72v. system ready to go by then. I hope, lol.

Rick C.

PeteMcP · Mar 11, 2020

Definitely has the look Rick. Love how black rims always create the illusion of meatier tyres. The 4" wide leccy rear wheel on my Blue Bamboo bike was delivered with a factory black rim. Wasn't sure if I'd stick with that, but I will for the time being. Which means I need a matching 24" black front rim. Got a pair here - so I'll need to lace another of my S/A drum brake hubs to a black rim.
Personally, I like the forks you've selected for this boardie. Are you sticking with them or thinking of going with a set of Pat's sprung Harley ones?

indian22 · Mar 11, 2020

Thanks Pete and the black on black does add visual weight. I like the look of the black on your blue bamboo adds contrast and that heft as well, but feature you'll get the urge to add some color to them and that's not a bad thing either.

Stuff and more stuff these bikes are needful things!

The truss forks are key to the look I'm shooting for with this build and doesn't tie the bike so hard to Harley springer road bikes (the springers were commonly used on the factory race bikes as well). The truss was simple and had wide use on competing brands at the races and they saw wide use at the races on your side of the pond as well. It's a simple and vintage racer look that worked well. The truss was seen on the roadways as well, but by 1915 they weren't commonly used on new consumer bikes. I love the Harley forks & Pat's done a great job designing and can see myself building a bike with them one day, just not this bike this day.

Motors out of the frame and I'll get back to it after lunch. I did put a chain on before I pulled the motor and things look fine though I will need an idler to jump the chain stay, though it cleared it's just too close.

Rick C.

fasteddy · Mar 11, 2020

The rims do indeed disappear into the tires. The bike is gaining rapidly on the board track look and style. I can only imagine the surprise of the bystanders as the bike pulls away without the snap and roar of the exhaust that they expect.

It will be even greater fun to stand back and listen to the comments of the crowd as they look the bike over at the shows.

Steve.

indian22 · Mar 12, 2020

Thanks Steve I look forward to both riding and showing this bike. I've three slots reserved in two shows this Fall and will probably do one more if the corona bug doesn't cancel the shows or me along the way. Peashooter, Simplex and the e-V-twin. The show promotors have asked each year & I keep giving excuses for not bringing my bikes. I like meeting the visitors and talking both cars and bikes, but really not into the shows themselves.

Lack of sound from something so iconic as a V-twin, known almost as much for the sound as the feel and the look; will be interesting to experience. Riding my hybrid using only the electric gets some double takes from those who are familiar with my bike as a two strokes and are unaware of the addition of the e-hub. So I'd think leaving the coffee shop on the e-V twin will stop some in their tracks....including cops.

I made a list of thirty five things required to finish the motor case and completed eight yesterday and need to alter two of those so I made progress. I'm hoping to cut the list in half this week. Some will be easier than others to mark off, but none are major in nature, more tedious. Engine paint, both interior and exterior will be hi temp coating baked on in a large pro oven, at an aviation shop. Oven normally used for powder coat which I don't much care for on vintage builds or much of anything I build.

Looks like Pat's HD coffin style tank will work for the 72v. pack I've got in mind & will easily hold the 48v. I've got in hand for testing and client use.

Rick C.

indian22 · Mar 13, 2020

Geeze Louise seems I've drilled and tapped a hundred holes & still require some more, but the good news is I can completely tear this case down and reassemble in short order and the design allows me to swap out or service the internal parts without removing the case from the frame & that means it's just that much easier to live with as a rider.

There's nine days of rain in the forecast. but temps are mild...no excuses there for not accomplishing a few things daily. I realized I don't have a throttle control in hand for testing so it's on it's way, temporary mounting of the battery pack, for testing is fine to see what I've got. 2kw motor and controller will be the first test setup.

It's fun, but always like to see them run awhile before getting on with completion details 'cause you just never know...

Rick C.

indian22 · Mar 14, 2020

Something I stumbled upon about the efficiency of electric motors and the fact that it's somewhat intuitive makes it less than a revelation none the less it got my attention. 'Lectrics are pretty efficient overall, yet they struggle to compare , in efficacy, at low rpm. They don't have the dramatic feel of a 4 stroke coming on cam or the pipe hit of a 2 cycle gas engine, yet there is an operational point at which they become much more operationally efficient. This would be upper mid range and up. They thrive on higher rpm's, within the motors rated rpm capacity, whatever that rating may be. I looked at various graphs & 60% plus or minus of rated rpm starts to be quite efficient and extends up to 85% or 90% of rated rpm. Don't confuse the motors efficiency with the draw down on the battery. These are two different metrics. Once the motor reaches higher rpm's it's easier to maintain or increase the pace with less heat being generated in relation to rpm's turned.

To me, a single speed bike, with gear reduction, needs to be geared low enough to easily reach and maintain the minimum rpm's a given motor is rated at. Cruising speed needs to fall into this upper 40% range and proper sprocket selection is the answer.

I'm mounting the 2kw 48v. motor first and I've selected the 48tooth final and 28" diameter tire. The motors rated speed is 5,000 rpm so 3,000 rpm is 60% and that's my minimum target range for efficient cruising. 5,000 rpm yields 46 mph top speed with this combination & 3,000 rpm gives a minimal efficient cruising speed of 27.6 mph. That's pretty fast but that's where I'll start. I can dramatically lower speeds with a motor output sprocket change from a 14t to a 12t or 11 t., but just changing to a 54t sprocket drops that cruise speed down to 23mph with 3,000 plus rpm's.

Top end for me is just a curiosity though I like the capacity. I've found continuous cruising my gas bikes at 30 miles an hour trashes regular bike hubs, that don't run sealed bearings, quickly on lengthy rides of 50 to 100 miles. I like to run 20 to 25 mph on long rides, even with sealed bearings with my gas bikes, and most of which don't run sealed bearings. I'd think the electrics will do at least as well set up much the same.

Just sharing my thoughts as I go.

Rick C.

Tom from Rubicon · Mar 14, 2020

I will share a thought too Rick.
Back in about 1995 I was Model Shop Sup. tasked with the hardware of a motor controller of an electric car. State funded research grant and development.
Power MOSFETS and a EPROM to cycle to motor. Pulsing energy to maximize thrust and battery life. Mind you the test mule was a 48V golf cart chassis EV. All development stopped the grant money dried up. Not a clue what Musk is doing but his engineers would be fools not to use that algorithm.
Tom

indian22 · Mar 15, 2020

Interesting Tom though I have no idea how that is accomplished I do see the value. I'm assuming the use of lead cell technology at the time and high voltage capacitors in use?

The Hall effect motors in use currently and the lithium batteries are step ups of course and can make efficient use of todays motor controllers and battery management controllers and that's where most of the magic occurs with todays e-transport devices. I'm not knocking motor and battery engineering, but the elements that control the power stored and delivered are where the magic occurs. Mapping a device to produce results that you related on that early project should now be fairly routine to those who do these things. Though pulsing is a good description I don't remember seeing it used to describe the controller functions, but I feature it occurs. Directing, storing and releasing energy to me sounds like pulsing to achieve the goals you mentioned on demand and limited to components capacities, preventing catastrophic failure along the way.

Consumer programming through Bluetooth has been a reality for awhile, but legislation is and will continue to limit the performance of the safest, most affordable and cleanest form of transportation, while allowing cars and trucks to run thousand plus horse power to multiple tons of weight. This does not compute. I like safety but I can legally pedal faster than I can ride any motor bike in most of Europe and some of our states.

Something that I've only seen a few times in my study of e-biking is the that the battery and motor controllers are the most important aspects of making power. The lithium battery will put out far more current, at rated voltage, than a standard BMS or motor controller can deliver. The motor itself will run on whatever voltage and current it is fed....regardless of what it's rated at. A motor rated at 48 v. will run at less or more volts and a 50 amp motor will handle more or less current as well.

Upgraded BMS & motor controllers of up to 80 or 100 amps and 72v. are common. So a 50 amp 48v,. rated at a nominal 2.5 KW is actually capable of 5.6KW at 72V. and 80amps. peak outputs being limited by both controllers. Of course if wide open throttle is applied very often or for very long both motor and battery life is greatly shortened, but that's the case with internal combustion engines as well redlining is perilous to either and holding them there will destroy things.

Heat is a big deal with electrics and IC engines as well, so cooling is important in all this too. Cooling of all components: battery, motor and controllers.

Voltage does determine motor speed not current (amps) so if one wants to go faster on a single speed bike voltage has to increase, rear wheel diameter and sprocket size will alter top speed as well. If you have enough power (watts) to push you there, but motor speed is the major factor involved.

Rick C.

Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

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