Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

[indian22]

Your feedback as always is quite informative & appreciated Ludwig. During the early stages of my Simplex Copper Gator build you consistently provided excellent input based on your knowledge of the Honda style CG 125 power plant that you gained in racing & when the subject of adding a side car to the Simplex came up you've shared much valued input as well. I thank you along with all those who have been so supportive along the way & this includes the encouragement given during the Harley Davidson "peashooter" build that uses the same power plant as the Simplex. At one point I'd decided the side car would be fabricated for the Harley, but I decided, through input, the double tube frame of the Simplex would be a more robust platform to work with. Input from the forum members has been & will continue to be weighed in all my builds. As I've mentioned in past posts, I'm indebted to others for all "my" ideas, not just in the building of various types of vehicles, but in all my life activities, but when the results are less than sterling I take full responsibility.

Thanks, Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Once again Ludwig brings up a very relevant point. I've included some photos to show areas of the Simplex frame that have been massively strengthened even after completely replacing, along with adding frame length & height, all the old original frame tube with d.o.m. 1" thick wall tube. The original headstock is wrapped in steel plate & is quite strong. This is a duplex frame which doubles the strength of the frame. I've added two 1" vertical tubes to strengthen the rear triangle & cross braced the frame in front of the motor with two 1" tubes. The fuel tank is 3/16" steel and has 8" of weld on each side of the tank that virtually ties the tank into the frame. Under the engine is a 3/16" thick steel plate 10" long that has a fabricated 3/16"... "engine leveling box" welded in place that ties the lower frame tubes together as well. With the engine bolted into the frame it becomes a unitized, load bearing component of the frame also. This frame isn't a worry for me in the least...especially after adding the heavy duty leaf spring fork.

The car frame and it's connection to the bike is however an area that I still have real concerns about especially the connection that Ludwig mentioned, close to the headstock. On the "minimalist" racing frame shown there is no car body to contend with. That means compromise is necessary and all frame connections have to be on the port side of the car frame. Gussets and plates will have to suffice, most concealed, ultimately, by the car body and wheel. I'll just do my best here and hope that effort is sufficient. Upon completing the frame I will spend much time riding, adjusting & perhaps altering the frame. No attempt to mount the body will be made until the rig rides out properly as I don't like pulling various non active components on anything in order to make changes.

D.C. motor, battery & sprockets should all be delivery in the next two day...

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Simplex frame strengthened at these critical locations & as described in my last post. Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

WOW! Looks good, should do well............Curt

 

[indian22]

Curtis I've built several motor cycle frames that were powered by large & powerful twin engines & I'm certain this frame is quite a bit stronger than those. The bicycle wheels, bearing & clincher style tires are admittedly the bikes weak spots but I'm extremely reluctant to abandon them. The bicycle size wheels and tires seem to be what grabs the imagination of most enthusiasts when seeing the real board track bikes or my tribute bikes, that and the diminutive size of the whole bike; with tires being no wider than 2.5". I actually have many more positive responses from people in public when my bikes are wearing even narrower rubber (cruiser balloon size) on the 2.235" rims. The extra weight on the wheels and hubs will no doubt increase bearing wear on the bikes running gear. As I plan on this being a town and country rig ridden at a snails pace rather than a cruiser, the stresses' should be acceptable with the car attached. Solo the wheels and rubber are a lot better than the original racers ran on the board tracks at 90 to plus 100 m.p.h. speeds during competition so I'm as good with the clinchers as anyone can be with clincher technology even on straight up pedal bike touring...when clinchers go you go.

Batteries came in for the side car. I bought 4 gel cells, only 8 amp units for testing the motor and will upgrade batteries when frame testing is complete.

The Old guy, Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

For sure, way heavier then bike frame, and with DOM tube, like you say heavier then a lot of motorcycles. LOL back then there was no worry about the consanguineous of safety and speed, wood splinters or any of that. HAY I got wheels lets race. Beat that Harley, or Indian. LOL.

I remember when i had my Monark back in the 50's, watch out here i come, but no fear of traffic like it would be now. Even in a car burn broody, did that now you would get slammed, that and not many dirt side streets left. But i still think the most fun was my home built bike back then, even with the fine tuning/fixing required, pried i guess............Curt

 

[indian22]

Pride for sure...the neighborhood bragging rights!

 

[indian22]

Post office has my dc motor components scheduled for delivery today, about a week later than promised but it will be ok. Hope to make a bit of progress this week on the side car frame.

I really hope to get some feedback as to what one might expect a front wheel drive electric bike and an electric sidecar wheel would handled like. What forces would be at work when coupled to the "standard" sidecar idiosyncrasies?

Rick C..

 

[indian22]

Box of stuff came & that's progress, but no wiring diagram or instruction...some connectors seem to fit & big red wires in and out with matching big black wires seems familiar. It'll be ok!

Weight of the dc motor is under 10 lbs. And the weight of the hub that was removed from the torsion axle lever was more than 8 lbs, which means the total weight supported by the suspension axle lever (with dc motor mounted on it) is 15 lbs or so less with the moped hub assembly, as compared to the normal use of automotive size steel wheel and mounted 14" trailer tire. I now feel confident about mounting the dc motor on the suspension lever in this manner. The dc motor mount and axle lever extension just need be a very robust design as does the torsion spring to frame connection as the completed suspension, motor, brackets and wheel components will weigh in at around 30 lbs. total. I'll not lose any sleep worrying about reaching a minimum target weight of 175 lbs. for the car assembly without passenger, but instead I'm now wondering if 350 lbs. of total bike weight is enough to offset the cars tendency to torque & oversteer to the left on straight running & under steer too strongly on right hand turns. The explanation just stated is with all component's of the rig setup properly. The bike running solo has a relatively neutral torque running in a straight line.

Rick C.

 

[indian22]

Motor parts for sidecar wheel.

 

[indian22]

Started putting spares together after supper & fat bike might get a motor. I thought I had a tube for the rear tire?

 

[Ludwig II]

How are you going to connect the engine to the wheel? I presume it will be via chain.

 

[indian22]

Yes, I'm thinking about 4 to 1 reduction with 40 chain. Total wheel diameter of under 22" helps keep the total reducton number pretty low with 12 t & 48 tooth setup. I'd think the chair wheel will have plenty of grunt to move it around.
Just messing with parts on hand with the fat bike so one of the Lifan 100cc'ish & a tav2 cvt with chain final, for the Mongoose & I'll probably mod the heck out of the frame. No classic look, when it's complete I'll post a few pics, but not going to detail post or do a thread on it...nothing special, just using parts that are gathering dust. Simplex sidecar is the current interest.

Rick C.

 

[Ludwig II]

I was sort of hoping for someone to use all that cross section and make a roller driver that's immune to wet weather. Peugeot and other people used geared large diameter rollers on the old skinny tyres, I just wonder how it would work. No, I'm not building it either, I'm helping Doug clear his workspace occasonally so my own slowly happening bike gets built.

 

[curtisfox]

cannonball11 is the one to get a hold of for friction drive, he has done a lot, and tried just about every kind of drive wheels, including a 3 speed bike hub, one he fevers is a 3' oak roller................Curt

 

[Ludwig II]

I see what you printed, did you actually mean 3' = 3 feet? I'd love to see him make that one work.

 

[curtisfox]

I see what you printed, did you actually mean 3' = 3 feet? I'd love to see him make that one work.

Oops 3" Lot of gears for 3 ft.

 

[indian22]

You guys are giving me some ideas to consider here. I can't see wet weather as being very electric motor friendly, to which I've given some thought to protecting the electrical components, but my best thoughts center on not getting caught out in the wet, pretty easy here in the Territory and if caught in the elements, not using the electrics.

Also your thoughts on optional car wheel drives; friction drive being one, but here is a different thought on my part; drive the car wheel hub via a straight shaft, live axle which is coupled to the pedal side of the bikes chain line to drive the axle sprocket when the bike is powered by the gas engine. A very short chain line from the bikes hub cog to another cog on the live axle would drive the car wheel in a 1 to 1 ratio if the outside wheel matched the bikes drive wheel and tire height. Of course the bikes pedal capabilities would be history at this point. I'd think the drivability of the rig could be pretty decent in turns and very good in straight line running once alignments were squared away.

That said a bike motor with reverse gear would be the most reasonable alternative for a rig set up in the manner described. Powering both forward and reverse with a minimum of additional parts if starting from scratch. Thoughts, pros, con etc.

I'm not actually considering this for my current project, but I'd think there's some merit in principle.

Rick C.

 

[curtisfox]

You guys are giving me some ideas to consider here. I can't see wet weather as being very electric motor friendly, to which I've given some thought to protecting the electrical components, but my best thoughts center on not getting caught out in the wet, pretty easy here in the Territory and if caught in the elements, not using the electrics.

Also your thoughts on optional car wheel drives; friction drive being one, but here is a different thought on my part; drive the car wheel hub via a straight shaft, live axle which is coupled to the pedal side of the bikes chain line to drive the axle sprocket when the bike is powered by the gas engine. A very short chain line from the bikes hub cog to another cog on the live axle would drive the car wheel in a 1 to 1 ratio if the outside wheel matched the bikes drive wheel and tire height. Of course the bikes pedal capabilities would be history at this point. I'd think the drivability of the rig could be pretty decent in turns and very good in straight line running once alignments were squared away.

That said a bike motor with reverse gear would be the most reasonable alternative for a rig set up in the manner described. Powering both forward and reverse with a minimum of additional parts if starting from scratch. Thoughts, pros, con etc.

I'm not actually considering this for my current project, but I'd think there's some merit in principle.

Rick C.

Both drive wheels would have to be the same size, LOL
DC do good in water, its just the control and connections. Use to run our slot car motors in a jug of carbine tetaclorid to clean...........Curt

 

[indian22]

Slot cars now that's a blast from the past. I rewound and balanced a lot of those over a few years.

To make the live axle work with a car suspension would require the live shaft bearing support on the car frame be mounted in a similar torsion spring mount to duplicate the movement of the wheel suspension to keep the live shaft from "cocking" the drive chain for the car wheel. I'd think that to be the most important part of such a drive mechanism. Both ends of the live shaft have to move in perfect unison to actually work and prove dependable over the long haul. That inside bearing block has to have some serious lateral rigidity while it's torsion spring should not require anywhere near the vertical compression rate of the wheel spring, just enough to faithfully follow and enough to prevent any shaft bounce that varies significantly from that of wheel spring, not actually harmonic unbalance, but controlled balance with good compression and rebound.

The solution I'm looking for primarily applies to rigid mount sidecars coupled to "hard tail" bikes; but should have application to soft tails as well. The car wheel and the bikes rear wheel might separated by as much as six feet laterally and perhaps the car wheel, on a large wheelbase bike, could be leading the rear axle of the bike by 30" or so. This amount of separation of the bikes rear wheel and the car's suspension wheel guarantees the bikes wheels and the car wheel are hitting bumps, potholes and other road surface irregularities' at different times. The best result one could hope to achieve is to minimize any variance at the ends of the live axle shaft, while keeping the chain line straight and with all three cogs running perpendicular. All components are affixed to the car frame to simplify in attaching/detaching the car from the bike.
One spring loaded chain tensioner would make life easier as well & that mounted on the bike frame.


It's hard for me to turn loose of a concept that shows some promise.

Rick C.