Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike
- Thread starter indian22
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From what I've read a steering damper is almost necessary. It seems at speed they are prone to unexpected speed wobble. Not needed at the speeds I travel but it would be more than a little exciting at real road speeds.
The kayak certainly fits the bill. Right size, light, great price and the tinker possibilities are endless. Looking forward to seeing where it goes.
Steve.
The kayak certainly fits the bill. Right size, light, great price and the tinker possibilities are endless. Looking forward to seeing where it goes.
Steve.
Yes Curtis I'm following in the footsteps of Silverbear and Steve as both the Elgin and aluminum canoe and mahogany Chriscraft Monark builds are so kool and are greatly influencing my decision as to style. I also looked at bobsled, snowmobiles and jet ski styling as well...along with drop tank style lake and Bonneville land speed record cars and bikes; yet I keep coming back to the nautical theme styling for my shell. When I first saw the sit in kayak it went to the top of my list. Curt the classic cedar canoe was at the very top, but I've failed at wood work so often I'm not going there 'cause I'd take years to finish amd even then it would probably disappoint. Weight is also a problem with wood, but the cedar is beautiful, especially when matched up against copper...which the Gator is. Appliqs of copper and cedar on the polypropylene hull and cockpit could be employed if I go the kayak route. Rick C.
Steve I have a steering damper installed on the Simplex as a precaution already and no problems except the turning radius is greatly restricted at slow speed where lean isn't as easy to employ. With a car attached and employing a rigid frame design would right handers be even harder to complete?
I'm convinced the kayak shell is the path I'll follow with this addition to the Simplex. Rick C.
In my research on sidecars I came across this blog entry about sidecars.
http://www.steves-workshop.co.uk/vehicles/bmw/sidecar/sidecaradjustment/sidecaradjustment.html
I also believe that the toe-in is also discussed on page 6 of the sidecar thread. That is the page number I had in my notes.
http://www.steves-workshop.co.uk/vehicles/bmw/sidecar/sidecaradjustment/sidecaradjustment.html
I also believe that the toe-in is also discussed on page 6 of the sidecar thread. That is the page number I had in my notes.
I forget that wood working isn't everyone's pleasure. When they first shipped me off to vocational school I met up with a fella who became one of my road running mates for years.
Larry hated wood working with such a passion he was able to drag a bird house build out for the entire school year and still mess it up. Meanwhile I built two pieces of large furniture.
However he was the kid who took the metal lathe manual along with all the other metal working machines manuals home and studied them every night. He was also one of the two or three kids I knew who could put a piece of metal in the lathe and produce something recognizable. The rest of us excelled in chips and shavings and metal, what's that's.
The kayak with your usual tasteful embellishments will have them scratching their head trying to figure out if there really is a kayak under there or is it just their imagination. I have lots of popcorn and a cushy front row seat for when you get to building it.
My guess and that is all it is would be that you already have the feeling of steering with a sidecar by your description. Right hand turns with a chair attached are slower than the left hand turns. I've never used a steering damper so I have no idea what they are like.
Hopefully Ludwig will join in on the conversation since he has extensive experience with racing sidecars. If anyone knows about sidecar handling he does.
Steve.
Larry hated wood working with such a passion he was able to drag a bird house build out for the entire school year and still mess it up. Meanwhile I built two pieces of large furniture.
However he was the kid who took the metal lathe manual along with all the other metal working machines manuals home and studied them every night. He was also one of the two or three kids I knew who could put a piece of metal in the lathe and produce something recognizable. The rest of us excelled in chips and shavings and metal, what's that's.
The kayak with your usual tasteful embellishments will have them scratching their head trying to figure out if there really is a kayak under there or is it just their imagination. I have lots of popcorn and a cushy front row seat for when you get to building it.
My guess and that is all it is would be that you already have the feeling of steering with a sidecar by your description. Right hand turns with a chair attached are slower than the left hand turns. I've never used a steering damper so I have no idea what they are like.
Hopefully Ludwig will join in on the conversation since he has extensive experience with racing sidecars. If anyone knows about sidecar handling he does.
Steve.
Dog catcher that is by far the best explanation of alignment setup I've yet seen for any vehicle. Thank you so much for taking time to locate and post the link. Rick C.
Dog catcher that is by far the best explanation of alignment setup I've yet seen for any vehicle. Thank you so much for taking time to locate and post the link. Rick C.
Here is another link on the same blog. http://www.steves-workshop.co.uk/vehicles/sidecar/sidecardesign/sidecardesign.htm
You will notice he doesn't address toe-in or the location of the outside wheel to this project.
One thing that seemed to have influenced him on this link is the design of the Watsonian and Gamage sidecars. Seems all research lead back to Great Britain and then Europe, I found little info on Stateside builders of sidecars.
I did find one on the Rat Rod Bicycle forum that was pretty neat. Not a sidecar but a side freight carrier that had a neat set up. A rod that wrapped around the rear tire like a bumper that that attached on both sides on at tire level, like a real long U shape.
You will notice he doesn't address toe-in or the location of the outside wheel to this project.
One thing that seemed to have influenced him on this link is the design of the Watsonian and Gamage sidecars. Seems all research lead back to Great Britain and then Europe, I found little info on Stateside builders of sidecars.
I did find one on the Rat Rod Bicycle forum that was pretty neat. Not a sidecar but a side freight carrier that had a neat set up. A rod that wrapped around the rear tire like a bumper that that attached on both sides on at tire level, like a real long U shape.
Non motorized side cars seem to present a few considerations that are magnified by lack of sufficient power to overcome them. The use of simple single articulation looks a good design plan for human power and low speeds. The lack of alignment geometry and load placement balance consideration in the bicycle sidecar, articulate or not, is a problem as speed and weight are increased to motorcycle parameters. All these elements must work together and articulation adds trig solutionsto trial and error tests. Parallelegraming bike frame geometry to articulated outrigger wheel assembly is a step beyond simply hinging bike frame to sidechair frame. I've not give thought yet to alignment with such a design change so my question is are all or some of the alignment issues changed with the leaning bike and wheel arrangement? It seems obvious that fine tuning will differ but do the major gross theries presented in the first article still apply? I lean toward a yes but hope for a no. Rick C.
Steve I would be that guy's twin!
I double checked to confirm that Krylon Fusion for plastic bonds well to polyproplene and that's a big deal cause these Kayaks come in some very unattractive colors only, so easily painted with limited prep.
Next item was ease of bonding polypropolene to metals and again our friends at 3m have answers with the double side automotive tape series that works on about anything that 100 mph tape will stick to so check and double check and the kayak is my go to shell for a side car.
I still have questions about how I'll connect the sidecar frame to the bikes frame, but even that isn't quite the holdup I thought it would be, if I design the frame with removable & adjustable brackets, including lock pins on the bike to car frame swivels. Designing a test platform to fine tune along with a leaning outrigger wheel that could lock in a rigid position, and also remain adjustable for toe in etc. If required one would only have to unlock and attach an adjustable pivot rod to stabilize the wheel to bike frame movement during lean. Alignment adjustments could still be made.
Need to get some stuff done on the Harley and complete two bikes for my son and his wife before mid-March so I'll be using some shop help on those, but I'm really wrapped up in thinking about side cars right now and the Simplex. Rick C.
The knowledge I have is collected, garnered (lovely word), from better engineers. There needs to be a line, parallel to the sidecar wheel, which is an inch closer to the front wheel when it is level with it than the equivalent at the back wheel. This small amount of side load will tend to counter the drag of the sidecar and help the outfit travel in a straight line. Another thing to do is to lean the motorcycle fractionally away from the edge of the road, to stop it falling down the camber or crown of the road. A capacity for adjustment is wise to add to the fittings, to fine tune the outfit.
Rake and trail of the forks. Of the two, trail is important. On our racing sidecars, an inch was enough. You can go down lower, but some small amount of self centring is desirable. Solo trail, about 4 inches, there's nothing actually wrong with it apart from giving you deformed shoulders from the effort in turning the bars to corner.
Rake and trail of the forks. Of the two, trail is important. On our racing sidecars, an inch was enough. You can go down lower, but some small amount of self centring is desirable. Solo trail, about 4 inches, there's nothing actually wrong with it apart from giving you deformed shoulders from the effort in turning the bars to corner.
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Garnered indeed, and fortunate we are when you share! Thanks for the insight on fork trail and alignment details. I believe my Simplex is just a bit over 4" of fork trail with the dual springer.
Am I correct in thinking the straight line alignment geometry is basically the same for rigid or articulated car to bike connections? Articulated being hinged at the two frames and also employing a leaning wheel.
It would also seem that on a fully articulated leaning wheel setup that the outrigger wheel would only be required to tilt outboard for right handers and returning only so far as to maintain straight line running alignment even while turning left (outrigger wheel not leaning into the car on left cornering). Am I incorrect in my understanding on this? Also would employing a hinge limit/stop on the frames connection bracket swivel be a good option allowing the rider to fly the chair (or at least unload the chair) on left handers? Whether I go rigid or articulated I'd prefer to understand more fully the dynamics of each before I begin.
Thanks for your insights as always they are valued and I am utilizing the sidecar thread as well in my research and posting more questions as well... Rick C.
Am I correct in thinking the straight line alignment geometry is basically the same for rigid or articulated car to bike connections? Articulated being hinged at the two frames and also employing a leaning wheel.
It would also seem that on a fully articulated leaning wheel setup that the outrigger wheel would only be required to tilt outboard for right handers and returning only so far as to maintain straight line running alignment even while turning left (outrigger wheel not leaning into the car on left cornering). Am I incorrect in my understanding on this? Also would employing a hinge limit/stop on the frames connection bracket swivel be a good option allowing the rider to fly the chair (or at least unload the chair) on left handers? Whether I go rigid or articulated I'd prefer to understand more fully the dynamics of each before I begin.
Thanks for your insights as always they are valued and I am utilizing the sidecar thread as well in my research and posting more questions as well... Rick C.
I have no acquaintance with leaning outfits, so this is only my thinking on the subject, not factual analysis. The sidecar will always impose a drag to one side, so a degree of toe in will always be necessary, and so will the same placing of the sidecar wheel approximately 25% on the bike's wheelbase ahead of the rear wheel spindle. The 25% is a compromise between the stability fore and aft that would be gained by placing it the mid point, and all the way back level with the back wheel, where it could lose the toe in.
The dynamics of a banking chair would be similar to a solo, I think, but with a tendency to swing one way accelerating, and the other decelerating. Here a thought occurs. Could a controllable locking device like an old style friction damper be added? You would have the option of fixed or flexi to suit circumstances and use.
The dynamics of a banking chair would be similar to a solo, I think, but with a tendency to swing one way accelerating, and the other decelerating. Here a thought occurs. Could a controllable locking device like an old style friction damper be added? You would have the option of fixed or flexi to suit circumstances and use.
Rick, FFV8 built a leaning wheel sidecar. You might send him a PM and ask him about it.
Steve.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...9I/AAAAAAAAA8g/yrY_7qUcq-w/s720/Sidehack1.jpg
Steve.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-...9I/AAAAAAAAA8g/yrY_7qUcq-w/s720/Sidehack1.jpg
Check out this BMW with a sidecar. https://youtu.be/m28XZXu1_7Y
The rider twists, turns, leans and everything else and the sidecar remains level.
The rider twists, turns, leans and everything else and the sidecar remains level.
Steve FFV8's leaner is a really interesting as well as a greating looking build...good resource for ideas as it seems to have worked well over a few years and is now up for sale.
Dogcatcher the BMW 1600 with car is a marvel of functionality displaying none of the design limitations cited by most. It's just a great technical design that has come to be expected of the engineers working for or catering to BMW. I'd not however expect my humble project to perform so well. Rick C.
Dogcatcher the BMW 1600 with car is a marvel of functionality displaying none of the design limitations cited by most. It's just a great technical design that has come to be expected of the engineers working for or catering to BMW. I'd not however expect my humble project to perform so well. Rick C.
Ludwig a few posts back I mentioned damping, but wasn't specific as to type, the ensuing short dialog concerned the steering fork aspect alone. I didn't return to damping of the "hinge" connection between the bike and car frame connection. I have an uneasy feeling about a completely loose swivel arrangement at this very active point. Leather washers are a simple way to prototype the swivel arrangement for proof of concept. I see that both adjustable stops which would create limits to the amount of overall travel between bike and chair frames and adjustable damping at the hinge points would also be a quite valuable aid during testing along with the ability to totally lockout the swivel mechanism to form a rigid connection between bike and sidecar.
Likewise the leaning outrigger wheel design could easily be fabricated to lock in a fixed upright position (though still adjustable for alignment) or unlocked for testing as a leaning wheel design.
Complete adjustability fore and aft of the two frames would also seem prudent for testing.
One of the things I like about the completely rigid frame is it's abilty to "free stand"...no kickstand required, ride up and walk away, no problems. So when I build an articulating design I'll want a quick and secure way to lock the swivel in a rigid position and that would secure the entire rig in a fully upright position, while unattended, even with the leaning wheel actively employed.
There is a lot of cool stuff I'm learning about sidecars and have yet to turn a wrench or scrape a knuckle. Rick C.
A steering damper of some sort is good to have until you know you won't have any shimmy or wobble. One trick that can be used to improve tyre footprint is to use slightly oversize rims and slightly undersize tyres. This both reduces the section's curvature and puts more rubber down and reduces sidewall flex. But don't go too extreme with it.
Something to be aware of, I was present at the aftermath of an inexperienced sidecar pilot messing about, going sideways, and panicking. He put his feet down, and the one between the bike and chair was caught on the kerb as he slid into it. Result, one broken ankle. Perhaps a running board blocking the gap may have prevented that.
Something to be aware of, I was present at the aftermath of an inexperienced sidecar pilot messing about, going sideways, and panicking. He put his feet down, and the one between the bike and chair was caught on the kerb as he slid into it. Result, one broken ankle. Perhaps a running board blocking the gap may have prevented that.