Old Guys Simplex moto-peddle bike

Discussion in 'Board Trackers and Vintage Motorized Bicycles' started by indian22, Jan 3, 2015.

  1. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Ludwig a safety step plate covering the gap between frames does seem a good idea as does utilizing a narrower tire on wider rim for the steering tire.

    I've also expanded my inquiry of the effects of damping for the outrigger leaning wheel as well, giving a certain amount of resistance at that swivel point.

    Springing and damping the chair wheel also deserves a bit of thought as the hardtail Simplex could really benefit from a reduction in unsprung weight.

    The next item of concern on my list of considerations is the ability of the Sunlite forks to handle it's part of carrying an additional 250 lb. load. The tires on the Simplex are designed to handle the weight of three people on a pedicab but the outrigger wheel would need to also be a 26" to utilize the same Vee NOLA tire or go to a small diameter motorcycle size on the outrigger wheel and tire.

    I bring these considerations up in order to not only find answers, but also illustrate that adding a sidecar poses several design considerations. I may go the easier fabrication route and go simple rigid frame, unsprung, but still using good sidecar balance and alignment in it's design. I could also go all in with a fully sprung and completely articualted design or somewhere in between and either way be satisfied with my choice...if I do my part and build to the best of my ability the design I select.

    Rick C.
     
  2. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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    Can you pop a couple of pictures of the forks up? There were solutions to heavy loads in the old days that might be relevant.
     
  3. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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  4. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Ludwig photo of Sunlite fork.
     

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  5. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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    Looking at it, although it is lightly constructed, the paths for torsional loads will probably be entirely adequate. It's a twin downtube frame, so the head has good support, and the springer part is restrained at the top which will resist the wheel trying to lean over.

    The only parts I can see that look potentially marginal for a conventional fixed sidecar are the links.

    Provided you don't motocross it or go everywhere sideways, it seems excellent.
     
  6. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Thanks Ludwig for training a critical eye to the forks. My rig will see light street duty only with sidecar attached and normally carry no additional weight or very light loads with the occasional passenger on board for short treks and parades. Links are on the light side, but it's easy to machine a pair of heavy duty rockers to beef up those components for the added chair loads.

    I also got around to Googling kayak sidecars & mainly found hack frames hauling full sized kayaks to the water, but a few were converted to permanent shells for side chair seating. So again I've proven to myself that I'm just following in the footsteps of others taken during the past 120 years or so of cycling. Rick C.
     
  7. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    I've not mentioned braking for the chair wheel, but have been thinking about the use of a quality "bicycle" disc brake to shorten the stopping distance of the heavier sidecar equipped cycle. The Simplex has a 160 mm rotor mounted on the Sunlite fork and has performed well coupled to Avid caliper, mountain bike stuff that I've used for years on Mountain bikes as well as my motorized bikes and I'll put my trust in them once more to stop the outrigger wheel.

    I plan to stay with mechanical actuation for all braking, but favor a separate foot operated pedal for the chair brake over a dual brake hand lever, but leave the option for a dual hand control as a possibility.

    I had my first side car experience yesterday on a ride along in a sixties era 650 cc Triumph Bonneville rig and it was exhilarating. This was a bare bones rigid sidecar setup "driven" by an experience Old guy (older than me) a traveler with no worries just passing through on his way for a visit in the Dallas area. I struck up a conversation with him outside the coffee shop and he was interested in my Simplex and my plans to mount a sidecar. When he found out I'd not yet been favored with a ride; he unloaded enough of his kit to fit me for the experience. Just another example of kindred spirits coming together and is greatly appreciated when encountered. He had his chair wheel brake setup as I previously outlined, foot operated and liked it. He said one benefit was right hand turns at slower speeds could be facilited by judicious application of the outboard brake. A lot like field work in agriculture with a tractor executing left and right turns aided by steering to execute "sharp" turns with tools attached: gentle skid steering to assist the cycle rig around sharper turns, again executed at slower speeds. He demonstrated turns with and without the use of his side car brake and I could feel the difference. He had the option to use the brake when he felt justified, not on every right hander...and yes I'm certain tire wear certainly occurs with this practice.

    I had my phone on the charger but maybe someone else took a few photos that I can share..I'll ask around. Rick C.
     
  8. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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    You will probably only need a small, low drag, brake as there won't be much weight on the sidecar wheel, especially when you use it to turn. If you have too much stop, it will lock up rather than slow the wheel down. On the lightweight sidecars we raced, hardly anyone bothered with it.
     
  9. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Race experience is such a great instructor Ludwig and your previous post was instructive regarding the loads placed on the outrigger wheel as well as experienced braking requirements.
    Compared to a full size dresser motorcycle and sidecar, my rig when completed will be tiny and light. A Gullwing with car would probably top 1200 lbs. curb weight...and loaded with two up and gear? I'm shooting fora little over 200 lbs. unloaded, so apples and oranges on stresses imposed, especially at 40 mph compared to touring at 80 plus. So more research is required.

    I spent some time today watching a youtube video of a car install on a new style Indian moto. Then watched some big boy side car races, though some of the boys weren't. Then switched to studying photos of vintage side cars both recreational and racing setups as well. Bottom line is I'm starting to get a feel of optimism for what I'm getting myself into and confident that there is sufficient information and guidance to help me get there.

    Thanks guys I'm still counting on your help. Rick C.
     
  10. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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    Something which just came to me. The dynamics of load carrying. Obviously the centre of mass needs to be low, but it also needs to be within the triangle created by the contact patches of the tyres. Remarkably little weight transfer forward or back of those lines can create unsettling longitudinal instability or loss of grip when cornering.

    Although you are unlikely ever to need the finessing of grip that racing requires, where moving the body fore and aft just a few inches will unstick one end or the other, an unexpected slippery road surface requires as much stability as you can find.
     
  11. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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    You were concerned about the lack of suspension at the back. I wouldn't bother, it introduces problems. Currently you can run the load from the back of the sidecar to within inches of the back wheel. A swing arm means you bolt to the frame and load up a hinge that is meant to work vertically with additional side loads. Plunger suspension retains the best load path, but the bike wheel will try to lean over when you corner. Rigid and a comfy seat should be fine.
     
  12. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Ludwig your last two posts contained some gems of insight into the dynamics encountered with a sidecar. The bikes rear suspension, if any, does introduce complexities of design which a hardtail layout avoids.

    You also clarified a question I had about load balance with your, inside the tire patch triangle explanation; especially when coupled with the 25 percent of wheelbase ahead of the rear axle load placement rule of thumb you expressed earlier. Properly settling the longitudinal balance, as well as keeping the center of gravity as low as is practical in daily driving, are important. You pointed to all these elements in your posts. Keeping the whole affair lite and robust is also kept in mind.

    I'm also consdering using elastic suspension to cushion the shell connection to frame.

    How important do you regard the outrigger wheel suspension? I'd like to avoid the mistake of overbuilding just because I can and the added compexities would be cool. Safety coupled with vintage style, simple design and dependability for around town transportation are my primary goals. Rick C.
     
  13. Ludwig II

    Ludwig II Well-Known Member

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    Having anything more than some sort of bump stop introduces roll. I'd only go as far as a small buffer just to take the worst of any bangs out of it. This is only a personal choice, I'd advise experimentation to find what satisfies you. You will notice that a lot of the classic sidecars were on hung on rigid chassis, and they were held in place by various takes on springing.

    Watsonian had the strange Wobble Wheel. This article describes it. What it did seems to have spread impacts over longer duration, so reducing severity.

    http://reddevilmotors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/matts-bsa-a10-combo.html
     
  14. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Ludwig thanks for the link, that's an interesting site and what a great combination the A 10 makes with that boat bow side car. Fifties and Thirties together works well with those two.
    The wobble system seems to be a forerunner of the elastic seat post that's gained populatity with the mountainbike crowd and actually works quite well as a saddle shock, increasing the duration of the shock load in two planes vertically and horizontally, but the distance actually moved in either plane is miniscule. At any rate Ludwig I feel you're correct on the analysis of shocks and feel I'll end up with bump stops and elastics for the shell.

    What do you guys think about down riggers on such a light duty rig, if I decide to go to a traditional rigid frame...overkill? Rick C.
     
  15. dogcatcher

    dogcatcher Member

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    Here is a link to a Lambretta sidecar discussion. http://www.lambrettaclubusa.net/forums/topic/2356-sidecar-mounting/

    Scroll down to where the pics are, to next to the last pic where you get the bottom view of the scooter and the side car mounts. I am beginning to think we are over analyzing the problems that a sidecar can create.
     
  16. dogcatcher

    dogcatcher Member

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  17. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Thanks for the two links. I've never owned a Lambretta or Vespa scooter, but some friends did and they were much better engineered machines than my Cushman.
    The Cozy car mount shown is pretty simple. I took time to read the posts associated to the sidecar option and they were similar in content to what I've run into on other car installs...not very encourageing. Most of the negitivity was in the riding experience. I hope to avoid having to post similar observations after completion through a good understanding of what has been successful in the past.
    In defence of the Cozy setup the manufacturer had almost no choice of how or where to place mounts on the little scooter "frame" and I use the term frame in the weakest context. Not much room or heavy material to fit or secure to and next to no room for fore and aft adjustment. They were forced to make do with what was there. My Simplex, on the hand, has a true duplex frame built of the best tube steel available, and most of it is accessable for utilization with good room for load adjustment. It's apples and oranges compared to the Lambretta design and materials when it comes to a side chair mounting platform.
    I am and will continue to "over think" this part of my Simplex Copper Gator build, learning as much as possible first in order to make a "simple" design work well. At this point I'd have to admit favoring a damped hinge frame connection over a completely rigid, but also incorporating a very simple to fabricate lock to secure the hinge converting to a fully rigid mount. This would allow me to fully test and adjust each design to find the setup that feels best to me.
    I'm in no special hurry to begin building, but will have a well researched design in mind when I do.Thanks again for the interest and input. Rick C.
     
  18. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    I put in some enjoyable time working on the Harley Peashooter yesterday mainly adjusting and securing, but also worked on the engine case some as I continue to cultivate a vintage look with the seventies era Honda design motor to better coincide with twenties and thirties type styling. I fully understand that showing bits and pieces as I build can be hard to follow and visualize as a completed unit, 'cause it's at times also difficult for me and some of my ideas just don't work for me at all, others only work when coupled with the completed bike. It's not a precise process I follow, more like this follows that...Rick C.
     

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  19. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    We're having some great weather in the seventies and conducive to all kinds of outdoor activity including some work on the Harley. I replaced some more Ace no grade bolts with graded stock cut to proper lengths, I still have a half dozen left to change out.
    I also took the tank off to remove the petcock that broke off in the fuel tank bung...came right out without a fight. I replaced with a stainless petcock this time.
    Remounted tank and engine cover, along with shift lever and called it a day.
    Took a nice ride on the mountain bike, life's good! Rick C.
     

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  20. indian22

    indian22 Active Member

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    Hard to believe I'm still waiting on parts mainly fasteners and connectors. I need to rewire the engine electrical, connect the fuel system, hookup the front brake and complete the bolt replacement, then locktite everything and I can start with some test rides...the rest is just cosmetic adjustments till it suits me. The holdup is one CdI plug, a Sturmey brake cable pinch bolt and a fuel line adaptor, plus a few brass acorns that will come in today. I'm that close to riding the Peashooter and with a ten day forecast of sixties and seventies I hope to put some hours in on the road next week. Rick C.
     

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