Are we in the electric Vehicle Revolution?

[16v4nrbrgr]

I just want the goshdarned lightweight batteries with high capacity to come down in price, that's the kicker there, along with more competition in the brushless motor manufacturing sector that will allow for affordable motors with wide efficient powerbands outside the luxury market. For now I use AGM batteries powering somewhat efficient brushed motors with lots of amperage at a high voltage to get my expected desired results, the tradeoff is in the range department, which adding lightweight batteries and/or a more efficient 60v motor(s) might provide, taking my emotard from a thrill toy to a legit vehicle on par with gas on all counts.

 

[BarelyAWake]

They have been & compared to other motor vehicle components, rapidly. The 48v 15ah LiFePO4 pack I got has dropped about $200 over the past two years. The catch is for every few hundred the price drops on components, the more the popularity rises, more & more companies jump into the market charging the same or more for factory builds.

I want to see less "exotic" novelty electric vehicles & more baseline commuters, for an example sure the Tesla is sexy - but what the masses need is more along the lines of this: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-smart-fortwo-electric-drive-first-drive-review

...problems being, that's not how marketing works, that's the same price as a new Ford Focus - and with bicycles in particular, seems more & more companies are jumping on the (expensive) bandwagon, trying to milk that "I'm-so-green" money

 

[miked826]

It's all good. I'm about to change the perception of the range, speed, costliness and looks of what an e-bike currently is. Once and for all. I'm going to tear a hole in the fabric of space and time itself. Claiming the lane, permanently. LOL

 

[biknut]

Sorry guys, I 'm just not convinced at all. With all due respect. I can build a pretty reliable china girl bike for under $400. For $4000, I can build 10!

I'm guessing you haven't owned an electric bicycle? That explains most of the reason you're not convinced. There are crappy electric bicycles like the $500 ones found at Walmart, but we're not talking about those.

We may have vastly different ideas about "pretty reliable".

Lets just say we're both very familiar with the quality level of a $350 china girl. I also built one that cost $2000, and as you might guess, it was even higher quality.

Do I think they can be reliable? Yes, and no. For the short run yes. For the long run no, not without constant maintenance, and repairs. No matter what you do, vibration will take it's toll, and lets face the facts. A china girl engine is about the cheapest, lowest quality engine on the planet.

Knowing what I know now, I think even this Stromer for $3500 would be a far better value for the money than any china girl. I doubt 10 china girls would last as long was this bike, because a Stromer has no vibration, and was made from the ground up to be a motor bicycle capable of going 30 mph. I would also argue that because of the lack of vibration you'll be able to ride it farther, faster than a china girl, and in a lot more comfort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBR1pTdr6PY

 

[miked826]

I've ridden gas and electric and both going at the same time. I got nothing against gas bikes at all. I like all the shaking and the noise that goes on with them. I like both equally well because both have their pros and cons, but the powers-that-be sure have a problem with gas bikes, so I'm done with them. No need to ruffle any feathers and to be constantly looking in your mirror all the time.

 

[biknut]

These Stromer's cost $3500. It's pretty easy to spend $1000 on a china girl, but it will be nowhere near the quality of one of these. A china girls lifespan will be counted in months, but a Stromer's lifespan will be counted in years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASV9VrNpn3U

 

[biknut]

I've ridden gas and electric and both going at the same time. I got nothing against gas bikes at all. I like all the shaking and the noise that goes on with them. I like both equally well because both have their pros and cons, but the powers-that-be sure have a problem with gas bikes, so I'm done with them. No need to ruffle any feathers and to be constantly looking in your mirror all the time.

Mike, just for the purpose of disclosure your hybrid was a slightly higher quality 4 stroke, not a china girl, correct?

 

[miked826]

These Stromer's cost $3500. It's pretty easy to spend $1000 on a china girl, but it will be nowhere near the quality of one of these. A china girls lifespan will be counted in months, but a Stromer's lifespan will be counted in years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASV9VrNpn3U

If you don't mind pedaling the Stromer is a good bike. 48V and 814Wh just ain't gonna cut it on anything other that perfectly flat terrain, while pedaling. Pedaling should be completely optional, regardless of the terrain, for at least 100 miles.

I'm talking about 96V 40Ah and 4300Wh. LOL

 

[miked826]

Mike, just for the purpose of disclosure your hybrid was a slightly higher quality 4 stroke, not a china girl, correct?

Yes, it was a 49cc Huasheng then it was upped to a 97cc, both 4 strokes. The Huasheng had 170 hours on it and was still going strong, even though I tried to kill it.

 

[Tyler6357]

There's a few flaws in that counter, but suffice to say my confusion is why is it so often an "either/or" sort of thing? Much like stating "I don't need a screwdriver, I've a hammer" it overlooks the truth that there's more then one tool in the box, that sometimes some of them may be better for some jobs then others, that some may be better off with a different tool entirely.

..but, there's little point in conversion attempts - lines are drawn & beliefs are held, never more fast then by a purest. Either one is willing to try something, or they aren't and they'll find any rationality to affirm the stance.

Ride what you will & to each their own I figure - I'd not be so quick to disparage another for the joy they find, for every reason why not there's a why

I agree, it shouldn't be an either/or sort of thing and it's really not. It's for each person to decide according to their needs, wants, and desires. And we are really talking about 2 completely different types of transportation here. E-bikes might be an attractive choice for, say, a student with few tools who needs to travel short distances over bike paths or over generally flat roads, and carry his bike up stairs to a student's apartment. It might make sense to pay a little more for the privilege of running an electric engine instead of gas. The gas bike might make more sense to someone who travels over longer distances or up steeper hills. With a garage and tools and time to take care of it. Weather you are a hobbyist or trying to live without a car, each person has different needs, wants, and desires. It's not really like one is better than the other. The e-bikes are clearly more valuable, I mean, they sure do cost more. But I just had to say that electric motors burn out, batteries will one day fail to hold a charge, few things last a lifetime.

Anyhow, I will ride with anyone who will tolerate riding with me. I hold nothing against my fellow bikers no matter what they ride. We should all be able to ride together in peace without killing ourselves.

 

[miked826]

No doubt about it. Most e-bikes suck in more ways than you can shake a stick at. Too slow, too little range, looking like grandma bikes or worse. The very very few that don't suck cost way too much money for most people. That's all about to change. I will ride my e-bike with other bicycles or Hells Angels on full blown Harleys going down PCH. It will not matter to me one way or the other. LOL

 

[BarelyAWake]

I agree, it shouldn't be an either/or sort of thing and it's really not. It's for each person to decide according to their needs, wants, and desires. And we are really talking about 2 completely different types of transportation here. E-bikes might be an attractive choice for, say, a student with few tools who needs to travel short distances over bike paths or over generally flat roads, and carry his bike up stairs to a student's apartment. It might make sense to pay a little more for the privilege of running an electric engine instead of gas. The gas bike might make more sense to someone who travels over longer distances or up steeper hills. With a garage and tools and time to take care of it. Weather you are a hobbyist or trying to live without a car, each person has different needs, wants, and desires. It's not really like one is better than the other. The e-bikes are clearly more valuable, I mean, they sure do cost more. But I just had to say that electric motors burn out, batteries will one day fail to hold a charge, few things last a lifetime.

Anyhow, I will ride with anyone who will tolerate riding with me. I hold nothing against my fellow bikers no matter what they ride. We should all be able to ride together in peace without killing ourselves.

Well said

As the vast majority of my daily riding needs is no more then 30 miles @ 30mph & I like to save my tinker time for projects & not maintenance, my humble $1000 ebike does jus' fine by me. Having said that - when get turns to go & I wanna head out for state lines & then some, well I've a lil thumper for that too... different tools, different jobs lol

 

[Tyler6357]

These Stromer's cost $3500. It's pretty easy to spend $1000 on a china girl, but it will be nowhere near the quality of one of these. A china girls lifespan will be counted in months, but a Stromer's lifespan will be counted in years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASV9VrNpn3U

Cool bike. My biggest objection is that he says in the video that it will only go 20-25 miles on a single charge with 5 to 6 hours to recharge? I think that is the biggest disadvantage over gas. I have to say that I routinely ride my gas bike 40+ miles in one day of pleasure riding on any given weekend. Also, I would be interested to know how many times you can recharge that battery until it fails? Do you know??

You are certainly right, it's easy to spend $1000 on china girl bike, but it's also easy NOT to spend that much. I can score a cheap bike off craigs list and put together a nice China girl bike for $400-$500 and still get some pretty good upgrades from a stock kit. Also, I think the china girls are actually getting better, however slowly. You can get 3000-5000 miles or more out of a $150 china girl if you take care of it. And when it blows, it only costs you $150 bucks to replace it. I wonder how many miles the electric motor on the Stromer for $3500 will go before failing. It would be interesting to know. It might be hard to tell because sometimes electric motors have a tendency to slowly lose power when they start to fail, unlike gas motors that simply stop running if you know what I mean. Anyhow, I think that E-bikes have some nice advantages over china girls but I don't think that price is one of them.

 

[biknut]

Cool bike. My biggest objection is that he says in the video that it will only go 20-25 miles on a single charge with 5 to 6 hours to recharge? I think that is the biggest disadvantage over gas. I have to say that I routinely ride my gas bike 40+ miles in one day of pleasure riding on any given weekend. Also, I would be interested to know how many times you can recharge that battery until it fails? Do you know??

Tyler, near the end of the vid they claim 150 km (93 mile) range. I think that's probably with their optional big battery.

It sounds like we ride about the same, because most of my rides are 40+ miles too. Some a lot shorter though. Since our experiences are so similar I'm sure you'll be able to give my riding impressions consideration. I've been riding china girls about 3 1/2 years now, but I've only had an eBike since December. This is my best china girl.

This is Stunner

It's a pretty good china girl. In perfect conditions it tops out at 40 mph, and it has a 44 mile range on it's 1/2 gallon tank. If you want to make this bike, get ready to spend $2000. That's what it added up to. Of course all my labor was free, and I want a raise LOL.

So when I tell you I hardly ever ride it anymore since buying an eBike, you at least have to question why someone like me would toss a nice china girl like this by the wayside for an eBike.

Now if you know what eBike I'm riding you may say it's not a fair comparison, and maybe it's not, but even if all I had was a Stromer, I'm pretty sure I'd feel the same way.

 

[biknut]

Well said

As the vast majority of my daily riding needs is no more then 30 miles @ 30mph & I like to save my tinker time for projects & not maintenance, my humble $1000 ebike does jus' fine by me. Having said that - when get turns to go & I wanna head out for state lines & then some, well I've a lil thumper for that too... different tools, different jobs lol

BA, I interpret this as, you would only ride a gas bike if you had too LOL.

The revolution has only just started. Soon the excuses for needing to use a gas bike will no longer exist. After that our gas bikes will quickly become curiosity's much like model Ts are today.

 

[miked826]

Cool bike. My biggest objection is that he says in the video that it will only go 20-25 miles on a single charge with 5 to 6 hours to recharge? I think that is the biggest disadvantage over gas. I have to say that I routinely ride my gas bike 40+ miles in one day of pleasure riding on any given weekend. Also, I would be interested to know how many times you can recharge that battery until it fails? Do you know??

You are certainly right, it's easy to spend $1000 on china girl bike, but it's also easy NOT to spend that much. I can score a cheap bike off craigs list and put together a nice China girl bike for $400-$500 and still get some pretty good upgrades from a stock kit. Also, I think the china girls are actually getting better, however slowly. You can get 3000-5000 miles or more out of a $150 china girl if you take care of it. And when it blows, it only costs you $150 bucks to replace it. I wonder how many miles the electric motor on the Stromer for $3500 will go before failing. It would be interesting to know. It might be hard to tell because sometimes electric motors have a tendency to slowly lose power when they start to fail, unlike gas motors that simply stop running if you know what I mean. Anyhow, I think that E-bikes have some nice advantages over china girls but I don't think that price is one of them.

Would if it could go 100 miles on 1 charge, without ever touching the pedals and go from 0-60MPH and 60-0MPH as fast as a Ferrari 458 Italia for a little more money than the Stromer? Would that change your mind then? LOL

 

[cannonball2]

Regarding an Ebike build on the cheap, one can be built as cheaply as a China girl and compares pretty closely in a lot of ways, fortunately it doesn't compare in others. I have had three CGs and honestly the vibes were so bad that much above the mid 20s was just plain no fun. For an honest comparison you would have to take both kits straight from the box and install as is. Lets use a new cheap Roadmaster MTB from Walleys. $89. My E kit was $239 shipped. Can be installed in about an hour. I can now build a 10.2ah battery for $95(good used cells) plus about $15 in materials. I can build the battery in about 2.5hrs now that I have done one. So I have $438 in the build and this is with a Li-Ion battery not SLAs. I immediately have a rideable unit that to this point has shown 100% reliable/pleasantly rideable performance. No screwing around with all the stuff a GC usually requires. just ride!. I lucked up and got a faster wind 9C motor. Hot off the charger it hits 29mph on my Garmin and settles in to a solid 25mph top speed with a nice cruise in the 20-22 range. Smoothly and quietly. No pedal range here in the flats is over 30mi, if I assist a bit its over 40. Admittedly the IC engine excels in a long range trip having the ability to quickly refuel vs the time and inconvience of a recharge. However I have 3 batteries so ideally I have a 90-120mi and they easily fit in my side bags. So given a 100mi round trip, I shore would rather do it on a Ebike vs the CG!

I realize most folks wont build their own battery so their cost is higher, but I can and did. I also realize just as many would prefer not to have to install and live with a CG either.

 

[Mike B]

Yup, if you want to DIY the battery, the cost gets pretty close eh?

No heavy SLA, weight is pretty close.

Nah, you can't recharge the batt as fast as you can fill the tank.

But you are smooth, silent, stink-free, indoors compatible, license, registration req's diminished, bike path friendly, low maintainence and much safer than having the vibes shaking parts off the bike.

Good trade.

 

[biknut]

This thread really isn't about bashing china girls, or defending eBikes. The important thing to consider on that subject is, a lot of us eBikers started out riding china girls, and for some reason we've chosen to give them up, and move on to eBikes. We obviously are in a good position to judge both types of bikes. If you've never ridden a eBike, you have to ask yourself, if eBikes really have less range, and less speed, take forever to charge, and cost so much, why would we abandon our china girls for them?

 

[biknut]

Regarding charging time, my 1.5 kwh battery takes between 2 hours to 3 hours 15 minutes to charge. Depends how far I run it down. After riding 40 to 50 miles, my butt is perfectly happy to rest at least that long, and usually a lot longer.