what is the future of racing?

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magrider

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Aug 24, 2010
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OrangeCounty, CA
T-maker, I understand your ‘Heat’ recommendation and it sounds good. But, shouldn’t the durability of the bike be part of the equation also. If not I need only build super bike that will last 15 laps (1 heat +main). And the value limit brings up another question, is it for parts only? Or is labor included. Great stuff
 

MotorBicycleRacing

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I would propose 5 lap "heats". Two of them. The top 4 or 5 finishers from Heat #1 can sit out heat # 2. They are the front of the grid for the main.

B.
Your proposal is already being implemented. :)

We have been doing two 6 lap heats except for
one race where we did 5.

Racers have always been able to sit out one or both of
the heats and still run the final.

It's been a pretty friendly and fun kind of racing.
 

Tool Maker

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Oct 28, 2012
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Magrider:

If the intent is to test the durability of the machine we usually call that endurance racing. Some classes of racing have tried variations like sealed engines you need to get a whole season out of, etc.

If you were to build a "16 lap" engine, and have a bad start in the first heat? You might be pedaling in the main...

However there will always be someone that tries it. The very nature of competition.


For the claiming classes you are basically setting a value on the machine. it is a number you must be willing to surrender the machine for to someone who was in direct competition with you in that race.

It does not have to be the whole machine. In MotoGP, the claiming rules involve the engine for 2012. Advantages are given to non-factory teams, but the engines can be "claimed" for 15k euros. Some of those engines are rumored to be worth 100k

In the LeMons races, it is endurance racing for budget cars. If you are obviously running a professionally prepped BMW, and whipping everybody, they can flag you off, hand you 500 bucks - and crush your car right in front of you.

Since the Lucky Early Boy Go Bird Fast engines are basically interchangeable, perhaps a claiming class 5 laps for a decent prize? China Girls only, and if you win the 4th place finisher gets a shot at your engine for 250 bucks?

B
 

16v4nrbrgr

Active Member
Mar 17, 2012
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I agree on some spending limit, $3000 is reasonable. What I don't agree on is that rule that people can buy your bike out from under you inwillingly. I'm smart and resourceful if I do say so myself, and a rule like that would mean just building everybody else bikes in a negative way, because I know how to make good use of my money.

I like the way club auto racing does it:

Practice

Qualify

Race based on qualifying results

Everybody gets all the track time they paid for, and nobody sits out a heat. Slower guys filter to the back and enjoy racing amongst themselves (the whole point, is it not?).

If there is a major dispute over the legality of a machine, you tear it down at the track, look inside, and come clean. Common sense per situation will determine the outcome. I don't think shame is beyond anyone if there are 20 other racers looking at them in disbelief.

You'll never be forced to sell your time and craftsmanship to somebody because they're upset that you're fast, that's totally lame in a club racing setting where people care about their bikes. They're not crapbox Saturday night spec dirt racers or Chumpcars, people put heart into these things and use them to get around and recreate.

Other than that, I like the idea of doing an enduro, especially with mixed surfaces where knobbies or ATB tires might be appropriate. It would be cool to see an emergency happy time engine change pit stop! :p

If somebody's really fast, just stick them in unlimited class like last race with the Tomahawk mopeds. The point is not only to go out there and compete, but also to get enough track time to sort your machine and practice and enjoy riding. I wouldn't care if somebody stuck me in unlimited, I'd just race with whoever else got put in unlimited class and try to use my brain and balls to make the bike go faster, a fun challenge instead of going out and cleaning up. I say if you have a need for a faster class for somebody or a few who dominate, make the class as it doesn't affect the grid order, just gaps between split starts.

I for one, just want to go out there and go as fast as I can, if there are others in the same speed bracket, we can have fun racing. If you really want to get technical with rules it would benefit the sport to have an official sanctioning body with sport-wide standards, kinda like the FIA does for international motorsports conduct. Having a sanctioning body of sorts would legitimize the sport and make it eligible for the mainstreaming that other sports have benefited from in terms of financial support. Then racers could build bikes that meet class standard definitions and rules like in NASA and, ahem, SCCA. You know what you can expect and what you need to do, so you can focus on what is important, having fun and racing fairly.

The big rulebooks sure are a pain to go over and scrutinize, but it can be fun and inventive to manipulate loopholes, and at least you know what your limits are in writing, which is "legally" binding within club racing events.

The auto racers I work with complain on time or another about slower traffic or getting dive bombed by faster traffic since there are mixed formula classes on track. The drivers that have problems clearing corners with such differentials in speed usually have problems with situational awareness. It's hard to pass or be passed safely by someone on par with your speed. Mirrors on both sides of a race bike will help your situational awareness, and in big speed differences it will be a simple point by if needed.
 

Tool Maker

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I agree on some spending limit, $3000 is reasonable. What I don't agree on is that rule that people can buy your bike out from under you inwillingly.
The problem with that plan is the "First liar does not have a chance". I have seen all sorts of shenanigans over the years, and asking someone what they have in something is not going to work - it never has.

A "Claiming class" does not usually extend across the rest of the classes - it is simply a way of providing a very fast yet somewhat limited class. I have seen plenty of races where no one tried to buy the winning vehicle, simply because they all knew what each other had - and were within seconds of each other anyway. It can make for a fast, fun race to watch.

I HAVE seen teardowns & challenges abused to no end. Once you have losers dictating a teardown for inspection it happens virtually every race. And I have seen cheaters get past that anyway - I recall a car that had one legal bank - and one not so legal. Guess which head came off?

Perhaps if a claiming class is too much we can do a Le Mans start? Used to do that at Smoke Bomb races. I can remember Hinshaw was still kicking that Bultaco after the dust cleared a couple of times...

Just need to find a way to keep people coming to races, and not getting discouraged by the antics of a few.

B.
 

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
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OrangeCounty, CA
Agreed, we need more people to come to the races, whether it be new racers or return competitors. The races have always been fun and we look forward to them every year.
 

MotorBicycleRacing

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Agreed, we need more people to come to the races, whether it be new racers or return competitors. The races have always been fun and we look forward to them every year.
The next SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing event on Sat April 6th 2013
is going to be a full house. :)

The people that have come to previous races have been and will
continue to be the ones that shape future events.
 

MotorBicycleRacing

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One more thing that I will throw out, then I will get off my soapbox:

Claiming class for unlimited racers.
In all my years of racing, I have never see a better way to tone down the over the top, purpose built entries. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept, it goes like this. Race entries are built to a value limit. If you enter a $3000 claiming class, you are saying that you have no more than 3k in the vehicle. At the end of the race, the winner can be compelled to sell his racer to anybody that was racing against him for the $3000. Winning a 50 buck trophy or $250 purse with a 10k value "my dick is bigger" machine is no longer as big a thrill...

B.
Claiming rules are never going to happen at a SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing event.

We already have very simple rules that are working OK.

Why don't you come to a race, meet the guys and then you will have a much
better idea of why we have a fun time at the track and why we are going to
keep it that way.
 

Easy Rider

Santa Cruz Scooter Works
Jan 15, 2008
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Good call Neil. I really don't plan on ever selling or getting rid of my BoXer even when I'm done racing. Sorry but I'm a sentimental fool like that.
 

buck0

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Apr 24, 2011
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Orange County, Ca
There is way to much thought going into this, I know everyone wants to keep it fair but, wow, this is all about fun & spending the day with great people, friends, and family & just renting out a track for the day.
Alot of people cant afford transponders & the way Neil & Baird does the scoring is old school but we have to keep it inviting to new comers joining the racing scene. Making a racer spend X amount of dollars for a transponder at first IMO is not inviting. At Neil's first race in Willow Springs 2 years ago there was approximately 40 2 stroke racers, that was huge, now were lucky to get a dozen. This is the class that pretty much is the introductory to motorized bike racing and we need to get those numbers up again.
 
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MotorBicycleRacing

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There is way to much thought going into this, I know everyone wants to keep it fair but, wow, this is all about fun & spending the day with great people, friends & just renting out a track for the day.
Very well said Dave, you summed it up very well. :)

I have talked to Shane of Affordable Go Karts about why he doesn't
race go karts anymore and it was because it became no fun due to all
the rules and expense.

We ain't gonna make that mistake........

Motorized Bicycle Racing is the most fun, affordable way to get out
on a real race track with a great group of people.
 
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Easy Rider

Santa Cruz Scooter Works
Jan 15, 2008
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There is way to much thought going into this, I know everyone wants to keep it fair but, wow, this is all about fun & spending the day with great people, friends, and family & just renting out a track for the day.
I agree with you 100% on that BuckO.
I go there to race but most of all...just to spend a fun day at the track with great folks. I for one would buy a transponder in a heartbeat if it was an option. Just so I could time my laps.
 

Easy Rider

Santa Cruz Scooter Works
Jan 15, 2008
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Nor*Cal
Hey Neil,
If we buy or rent our transponders from Jim, do you think he would let you use his timing system?
 

16v4nrbrgr

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Mar 17, 2012
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Here's the cheapest one I googled up in a minute, there may be better deals.
http://www.powersportparts.net/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=4583215

It's just the reciever, but you only should have one IR beacon out for all bikes anyways.

I agree that it's all about going out and having fun, and that the more regulation, the less appealing it would be for casual entrants. From that approach, really I don't see any reason to change things, but I was just offering ideas that I've seen work successfully with hundreds of racers at a track, so it would manage to keep a small group happy together if they want it to be competitive.

The only other motorized bike I've seen other than my own was a generic black Whizzer. It would be great just to see the machines in person, they're all so unique.
 

MotorBicycleRacing

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Jul 28, 2010
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Hey Neil,
If we buy or rent our transponders from Jim, do you think he would let you use his timing system?
Jim Granger doesn't have any transponders or a timing system.
I don't know where you got that idea from?

Just the strips are built into the track and wired to the tower.

Of course I have talked to him about this and to M1GP too
and it really does not seem to be feasible at this time.

You need computers and software too. M1GP spent a lot of
money on their system.

If I charge a yearly membership fee of ~$100 and ~$60 a race
like M1GP we can afford transponders.
 

Tool Maker

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Oct 28, 2012
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Las Vegas, NV
Claiming rules are never going to happen at a SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing event.

We already have very simple rules that are working OK.

Why don't you come to a race, meet the guys and then you will have a much
better idea of why we have a fun time at the track and why we are going to
keep it that way.
Hey, your race, your rules. I am fine with any race rules as long as they are published in advance and enforced fully & equally.

I do intend to go to the next race at the Grange - it is a reasonable drive for me & it sounds like fun.

B.
 

magrider

Member
Aug 24, 2010
511
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OrangeCounty, CA
shhhhh, don't tell anyone but I've been using these lap counters for the last 2 years on both bikes, brother uses them also. all you need is a thumb. under $50 http://www.sportcount.com. super secret stuff, for those of us that need to know, works perfect every time, although i wish I had one with a light for night races.
 

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scotto-

Custom 4-Stroke Bike Builder
Jun 3, 2010
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shhhhh, don't tell anyone but I've been using these lap counters for the last 2 years on both bikes, brother uses them also. all you need is a thumb. under $50 http://www.sportcount.com. super secret stuff, for those of us that need to know, works perfect every time, although i wish I had one with a light for night races.
Any idea how much thumbs are selling for these days? Those are handy little gadgets Steve and don't worry, mums the word :D