what is the future of racing?

[bairdco]

these are some of my opinions and observations from the last 2 years of racing.

point 1: the amount of people showing up is dwindling to the point of not being able to afford a track rental.

at my last race at adam's i had 32 signups, and Neil's race yesterday had around 40, which included 10-15 mopeds, so basically we had the same amount of people showing up.

these guys are the hardcore racers that come from all over to ride and hang out, but there's no "new blood" showing up.

in the past, you could count on a large group of unmodified cruisers, new guys who think they have the fastest bike on the planet, and people who just wanted to drink some beers and hang out, but still roll around the track.

where did these guys go?

there's more and more new guys on the forum everyday, and a lot of them from california, but they just don't show up.

without new people coming to the track, the numbers will continue to dry up.

Point 2: the competition and range of bikes is getting pretty serious, and almost out of control.

in the past, it was 2 strokes and a coupla morinis, and an odd briggs bike thrown in with a couple of electrics to round it out.

the china 2 stroke engine now, has everything from stock, to off-the-shelf mods, to full blown re-designed motors like the ones arrow cycles is building.

the arrow bikes are turning lap times as fast as the morinis and 4 strokes. right now, no one can touch them. the average guy won't stand a chance against them, so what's the point of the slower guys coming to the races?

the simple solution is "give 'em their own class."

but how does that work when there's 4-5 guys, and they're all basically family? i know i'd get bored of that.

this is in no way a jab at the guys from Arrow. they do some amazing things to the crappy china, and i love racing against them. but the average guy doesn't have the money or the knowledge to build a bike to compete with them.

then we've got bikes like luke's, scotto's, jeff's, etc...

i never thought i'd say this, but i think any bike over 50mph doesn't belong on a gokart track.

to clarify that, i was watching the unlimited main. they go really fast in the straights, and as slow as everyone else in the corners, then go really fast again.

basically, they've got bikes that go really fast in a straight line, but those pesky corners just keep getting in the way...

there seems to be a current trend of building 212cc 4 strokes. why? in california, anything over 149cc's is considered a motorcycle. the pedals are completely useless except as offset footrests.

and the electrics going 100 are just sorta, overkill, y'know?

that being said, i still think it's awesome watching them tear up the straights, and i would never ban anyone of them, nor discourage them from racing, and will always have an unlimited class for them, but i think there should be a line drawn somewhere.

Point 3: the stupidity of the one-man racing organization.

Neil, myself, and even Dave in tucson are/were putting on races by ourselves. that means one guy in charge, one guy paying the bills, one guy trying to get other guys to help out for free, and one guy losing if something goes wrong.

what would happen if i had a race and everyone shows up ready to go, and i got hit by a car on friday, or had the flu, or i'm stuck in traffic because the freeway's shut down due to a toxic chemical spill (it happens, believe it or not)?

there's no one there that can take over, and there'd be a bunch of perplexed, pissed of people wondering what happened.

another situation is the money. it's 1500 bucks to rent adams, and a grand to rent the grange (i think.)

what happens if i get laid off, hurt, robbed,or anything else and i can't come up with the track rental?

we've tried pre-paid entries before. i got 3 people signed up at piston bikes.

i've lost money on every race i've had, except the last one, and that's just because a few of you kicked down some extra (thanks!,) so i made enough to buy my two helpers some pastrami sandwiches at the hat.

everyone wants to race, but hardly anyone wants to help out, whether it be sponsorships, donations, or just holding a flag for awhile.

and everytime the entry fee goes up, people complain.

we need an organization, with multiple people to spread the costs and the responsibility. a one-man show is doomed.

those are the 3 issues right now that i think will make or break motorized bike racing.

i'm not going to put on any more races where i have to put out my own money, and hope to break even. i can barely afford to do it, and i coulda been driving a tricked out 1960 Falcon/Ranchero if i used the money for that, instead of it sitting in my driveway collecting spiders.

i'm also tired of the on again/off again, love/hate relationship with Neil. i hate that other people have chosen sides, and i just hate beating that dead horse altogether.

i was gonna mention the electric vs. gas rivalry, but after trying to get around some guy on a moped wearing a t shirt and jeans and no pads in the "exclusive" 2 stroke final, i don't really care about who hates who anymore...

 

[PAracer]

You touched on something that I think could be expanded on. It seems that some of the more casual racers are getting discouraged.

Perhaps there's room in the day's schedule to have a non-competetive class. No race, no prizes. Perhaps a slightly smaller entry fee. Kindof a track day experience for motorized bicycles. Those people will come back next time wanting to race, but this is a less intimidating way of getting one the track.

And for those that are totally outclassing the rest of the field. If you feel that they are abusing the spirit of the rules, you can ask them to move up a class.

Also, and i think this is the linch pin... Bring the racing to the east coast! ha!

 

[JonnyR]

if i wasnt in NY i would be all over it i love racing but never tried competitive bike racing and would be all in or at least there to help and i feel your pain on the rancharo i have a 1969 el camino im bringing back to life just put the fresh built engine and rebuilt transmission in it

 

[bairdco]

there is a lot to expand on. i'm hoping other people can chime in with their opinions as well.

there's always been a less competitive cruiser class, but that's not getting the people to show up.

as far as east coast goes, most of us can barely afford gas to make it to victorville...

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

these are some of my opinions and observations from the last 2 years of racing.

point 1: the amount of people showing up is dwindling to the point of not being able to afford a track rental.

at my last race at adam's i had 32 signups, and Neil's race yesterday had around 40, which included 10-15 mopeds, so basically we had the same amount of people showing up.

these guys are the hardcore racers that come from all over to ride and hang out, but there's no "new blood" showing up.

Your statements are off base and only reflect your experience.
.
There were only 7 paying mopeds at the Grange race and the rest were gas bikes.

The race was a total success and paid for all the expenses.
Track
EMT
Insurance
Helper to sign everyone up.
Lots of miscellaneous stuff.

I was totally happy about how it all turned out and everyone else
there expressed the same sentiments.

There was lots of new blood.
3 very cool and enthusiastic guys from ShuttleBuddy who will be bringing a lot more riders.
3 new motorized bike guys.
Lot's of new spectators from all over.

There was freak stuff happening to a lot of guys that normally come
to the races and would have been there.

Roland got really sick on Thursday so he and Timm didn't come.
Shane of Affordable Go Karts and his son couldn't come and they
have come to EVERY race.
Jake Busey had a broken arm.
Jake's rider Evan broke his arm surfing right before the race.
Jeff's son Ice man had a broken foot.
Oldbiker and his son Dave had another event.
DuceDave couldn't make it.
scotto's friend Maxvision's bike broke at the last minute.
scotto says he has a friend named Pat that had to work.
The Aleman got a new job just this week.
Buck0 aka Dave was still getting over his crash and had to
build a new bike.
And I could keep going on with examples.....

That's 14 more race entries and there are plenty more too that you
have never met.

I knew that they weren't coming so I didn't hire the Pro Photographer
MaryLex for $350 and canceled just a week before the race.

The only race I had a small loss at was the June race and just a
few cool guys like Andy, Bigboys, msrfan kicked in and made up the
difference. I hope I'm not forgetting anyone.......

I probably won't be doing any more races in June, or July, August, Sept.

Every other of the 5 SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing events has been fine.

Next race is on April 6th 2013 and there will definitely will be one in
October 2013 at around the same time as usual.

Thinking about doing one on May 27th as well.

 

[16v4nrbrgr]

I feel the same way. In 2013 I'll be starting a little shop and if I can manage it somehow, it will will be located at Sonoma Raceway. I know everybody there so it's a good place to get things done because you can buy things off people in a pinch to finish a job. There is a world class kart track upstairs at Sonoma, perfect for some <50mph bikes. It would be great to hold events here, maybe once per month.

I worry about enough people participating to make it happen. The goal would be a operation similar to SCCA, where the racers take on tasks in the event to make it happen.

I hear you about the different bikes all racing against each other in a rather unclassifiable way. The only real solution to that is many classes even if it means cheap or no trophies. Classification needs to be objective, in reality weighing the bike and getting a dyno pull is the best way, to find power/weight ratio like in NASA GTS racing. It is also expensive to bring a small dyno to the track. There are tons of ways to trick out a small motor so policing by appearance is pointless. Then there is the question about how serious are we gonna get about technicalities, or just run it as fast as you can?

On my personal builds I'll be focusing on sub 70cc engines, and low CG frames and smaller wheels. It's just my preference, I feel safer at speed on a low bike. I've seen some picture of people high siding MB's and street bikes, and it always looks painful. I was going to motorize a 700c fixed gear bike, until I actually rode it! Again, it's up to personal preference and danger comfort. The big 99 and 212 4 strokes are cool, but too wide for anything I have in mind. The Morinis and clones are insane little beasts, can't wait to ride my TJ clone.

Whether it is fair to race 10+ hp bikes against 1.5 hp HT's, of course not, and there should be a couple different heats as well as a combined event with all classes. Requiring mirrors and emphasis on awareness on an event with differing speeds like that is key. I've been run off track on a kart by someone who tracked out not knowing I was there, it can happen on a bike too. It hurts, believe me.

Logistics of just attending an event are what keeps most people from going, it's so expensive. There has to be entry level classing with enough racing agains sub 2.5 hp stuff to make it fair. Maybe have a sub class for shifter, because we all know how much gears help.

Insuring an event with someone racing a motorbike on a t-shirt will be difficult at best. Jackets, gear, and pads need to be a requirement. Black flag off the track for not wearing the right gear should be expected, for the safety of the event's future.

A key to success will be teaming up with pocket bike racers and moped enthusiasts, the races for their sports have been fading out too. Combine with them and save some dough on track time, and see cool stuff that we can apply to our bikes. I figure there's gotta be some people on Moped Army that want to race up here. Some of those SF mopeds are insane!

I hope I can get something together, but like you I am only one man, and the SF bay is so spread out that people don't tend to get together for much of anything. Maybe if we can link up a couple forums we can get a united racing league of sorts together for CA racing, maybe even with some sort of points system so there would be a championship with norcal and socal combined. The racing could be sponsored by vendors and racing costs spread uniformly. I'd be willing to sponsor if it didn't mean having to run the whole event myself. I don't know how you do it!

 

[16v4nrbrgr]

If you guys would be willing to share advice on how you manage to make these events gel it would be great. Talking frankly about what all goes into making the fun time happen will make it a better experience for everybody. I really want to see something happen up here. If we could make a league of some sort and expand on ties to other racing regions, it could be something like what national trackday and club racing has evolved into. Spreading insurance costs over a larger amount of people lessens the entry fees.

 

[Easy Rider]

Back when I raced Jet Skis in the 90's, we had a limited class and a modified class. I think having a limited class will allow people to race and not worry about spending an arm and a leg. A limited class is only bolt on parts (Pipe and carb) and it was always the biggest class. You already know there will always be some speed freaks but having a limited class will be affordable to be competitive and bring in new blood. I agree that a organization with a few people would be a great idea. But having a rulebook in writing will be a good thing.
In defense to the open class racers, it's not fair to say we are more dangerous. I seen more crashes in the china class.

 

[bairdco]

a simple response to neil, is the numbers aren't there. i've had the same excuses from the same people. we both need more people to show up to keep this going. i'm not arguing, just stating facts.

in the beginning, races pulled in 70+ racers. now we have enough to barely survive. same thing killed tucson.

easy rider, i never brought up the safety issue. luckily, no one's been seriously hurt, and you're right, there's been some bad crashes in the 2 stroke class. that's racing. we really need to push the safety gear rules. riding in rollerblade pads from target shouldn't be allowed in any class. watching guys skirting the rules with tshirts and jeans is just an accident waiting to happen.

 

[PAracer]

Something to keep in mind is that a lot of us who are in this hobby are riding motorized bikes because we can't afford a real motorcycle, jetski, or racecar. It would be hard to expect people to spend a ton of money to fit in a class.

This is hard. I don't envy those who try to organize racers into a group. You can only please some of the people with a certain set of rules. Heck, if you went to a single class (run what you brung), you'd still upset a group of folks.

 

[bairdco]

"...only reflect your experience.

that's what i said. my statements reflect my experience from attending and hosting races for the last coupla years.

 

[dmb]

i'm really worried about the girl that was on the kawasaki utv. i hope she's OK. dennis

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

that's what i said. my statements reflect my experience from attending and hosting races for the last coupla years.

The next SoCal Motor Bicycle Racing is on April 6th 2013
and it's going to be the best one ever!

Good weather, lot's of sponsors, may be a full house and there will
be no whining from me about losing money cause it ain't an issue
and really never has been.

I really slacked off on promoting this last one but this time there will be
some money behind it in April and 5 months to put it over the top.

Finally will be able to have very cool T shirts and even customized to
the racers on the day. You will be able to get your race #, name etc
on your shirt.

Probably will drop the price back to $35 too and a Pro Photographer is
already booked to take all the pics better than any previous race event
for no extra fees.

The dyno will be in full swing again and got lots of other stuff planned.

Bigboy Cycles is bringing some very special bikes that they won't release
any details on now. Going to blow everyone away.

They were really disappointed that they got sick the very day before the
Grange race last Saturday.

I sacrifice by not getting out there on a bike so I can do the very best
having the event run smooth and fun for everyone at the track.

After last Saturday which was the most fun race I have been to I would
never consider trying to race and organize, I don't see how that can work.


Maybe people aren't going to go to more than 3 or 4 races a year.

The SoCal Motor Bicycle Races in April and October will be the 2 big
events of the year and have been since 2011.

Trying to put on races in March and September doesn't work very well.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

i'm really worried about the girl that was on the kawasaki utv. i hope she's OK. dennis

Why, did you drool on her?

 

[16v4nrbrgr]

I'm trying to figure out how much it would be to rent a vehicle to drive down to these races. I need a truck, shipping a bike that reeks like gas or trying to travel with public trans wouldn't work. Hopefully I can herd enough of you cats around here so I don't have to drive so far

 

[scotto-]

Lets race!



I think 4 races a year is plenty. I've attended 6 this year and it's a bit much, really.

Baird and Neil should join forces and promote 4 races per calender year......2 in the early and 2 in the latter time of the year. Everyone has a great time at these events......keep em going or don't. Plan them and schedule them so people can make plans to actually attend them. Make people pre-pay or don't race. Otherwise you can pay the day of the race to spectate or DOUBLE the entry fee......see what happens then. Give a discount to first time entry level riders/racers. Keep it simple and spell it out before hand with no exceptions.

There has been enough races now at multiple venues that you guys can figure it out and keep the races going.....or give up and let the fun ship sink. Promote them and we the "Racers" will come.....you know we will.

 

[buck0]

Why can't the modified 2 strokes race against the mid class 4 strokes? If their engines are just as fast if not faster then mix em up. And keep the 2 stroke class a box stock class with slight mods like port matching and exhaust. This would make it fair for someone who doesn't want to drop a load of cash or doesn't really have the knowledge of tricking out a engine.
In the unlimited class theres mopeds, electrics, morinis, and 4 stroke.
I've known you guys for a couple years now and hate to pick sides but the classes perhaps should be on mph classes like my brother has stated this before.

 

[Easy Rider]

I'm trying to figure out how much it would be to rent a vehicle to drive down to these races. I need a truck, shipping a bike that reeks like gas or trying to travel with public trans wouldn't work. Hopefully I can herd enough of you cats around here so I don't have to drive so far

Just buy a cheap bike rack and rent a compact car if you plan on going solo. I would take you but with Dean, my gear bag, cooler and tools...my car is packed.

 

[bairdco]

thanks for advertising your race on this thread, neil. now we all know what the future of racing is.

 

[MotorBicycleRacing]

thanks for advertising your race on this thread, neil. now we all know what the future of racing is.

Thank you for coming to the Grange race.

 

[PAracer]

A four race championship?

Have people register for the 4 race series for a set price and award points based on finishing position. That gets the hardcore guys to commit.

I am also a supporter of having the racers volunteer to help the organization operate. Tech inspecion, corner workers, officials. Not only does that help with expenses, but it gets the guys emotionally invested in the success of the group.

I am very thankful we we do have guys setting up races even if they are on the other side of the country. I wish it was possible for me to make it out there to run. I understand the effort it takes to make it work. For one person to be doing this largly alone is commendable. My hat's off to you. And you too since it seems like there's two guys organizing separate races.