what is the future of racing?
- Thread starter bairdco
- Start date
I second this. Gotta try it at least once before it gets kicked to the curb. Heck whats one race out of a year, if it doesnt work at least you can say we tried it.
back when i was first setting up my races i wanted to have elimination heats, where only the top 10 or whatever would make the final.
that's how bmx runs, skateboarding runs, etc.
so many people cried about not wanting to drive all the way out for two heats and not make the final, i shelved that idea.
and since there wasn't enough riders anyway, it didn't matter.
the only race it woulda worked at woulda been willow, where there was a bunch of people.
as far as crying about it, i've driven across country for skateboard contests, not made the main, and just had fun with my friends plenty of times. no big deal.
it's not like you'd be banned from the track if you were too slow. there's plenty of time to ride.
that's really the only reason to have heats.
another way to do things would be by lap times. run a group of people in a heat, wouldn't even matter what bikes they have, and have people dedicated to timing their laps.
average ten laps or something, then group riders by that.
you'd end up with different bikes in the same race. a slower guy on a predator with a fast guys on a china, and arrow's two strokes racing morini's type of deal.
then, the hp and cc's wouldn't matter. it'd be all skill.
that's how bmx runs, skateboarding runs, etc.
so many people cried about not wanting to drive all the way out for two heats and not make the final, i shelved that idea.
and since there wasn't enough riders anyway, it didn't matter.
the only race it woulda worked at woulda been willow, where there was a bunch of people.
as far as crying about it, i've driven across country for skateboard contests, not made the main, and just had fun with my friends plenty of times. no big deal.
it's not like you'd be banned from the track if you were too slow. there's plenty of time to ride.
that's really the only reason to have heats.
another way to do things would be by lap times. run a group of people in a heat, wouldn't even matter what bikes they have, and have people dedicated to timing their laps.
average ten laps or something, then group riders by that.
you'd end up with different bikes in the same race. a slower guy on a predator with a fast guys on a china, and arrow's two strokes racing morini's type of deal.
then, the hp and cc's wouldn't matter. it'd be all skill.
I have a crazy idea, if there is someone showing up at the races with a dyno, like we did at the last race, And we have classes according to HP, then why don’t we have the ‘dyno guy’ test all the bikes during practice then we can group the bikes according to HP. Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t a dyno test for HP.
Then have 2 ‘heats’ 12 laps each and the racer with the lowest point total of the 2 heats is declared the winner, and so on.
Then have 2 ‘heats’ 12 laps each and the racer with the lowest point total of the 2 heats is declared the winner, and so on.
There's a loophole in classifying by lap times, people can sandbag. Then there gets into the whole issue of some sort of penalty weight system for too many wins. The premise of that has to work with a power/weight figure, that portable dyno is perfect for taking the power measurement. I guess by just doing the power density for the bikes and drivers with gear, it just takes all the guesswork out of classing heats. Dynoing a ton of bikes at a big event would take way too long though.
I can understand the situation from a similar thing in vintage racing. There is a broad spectrum of competitiveness and the differences in machinery and driver motivation and skill create tension. The most competitive racing is usually in spec classes. With HT kits a spec affordable class is a great idea. The problem with dividing classes is then you have a bunch of classes with low numbers rather than a big race. Subclasses within a big race is cool if the differences in speed are manageable, but you have to mind your mirrors.
Seriously, I just can't wait to just attend an event and get to test out some max lean angle in a safe environment. I like the momentum aspect of 50cc racing, it makes you a better rider and driver.
I can understand the situation from a similar thing in vintage racing. There is a broad spectrum of competitiveness and the differences in machinery and driver motivation and skill create tension. The most competitive racing is usually in spec classes. With HT kits a spec affordable class is a great idea. The problem with dividing classes is then you have a bunch of classes with low numbers rather than a big race. Subclasses within a big race is cool if the differences in speed are manageable, but you have to mind your mirrors.
Seriously, I just can't wait to just attend an event and get to test out some max lean angle in a safe environment. I like the momentum aspect of 50cc racing, it makes you a better rider and driver.
i thought about people sandbagging, but it'd be pretty obvious. most, if not all, of the racers are honest guys who want to compete with each other, not just win in an unfair contest.
the dyno idea is good, but like everything, it has it's flaws.
weight and skill of the rider are the obvious ones.
the dyno idea is good, but like everything, it has it's flaws.
weight and skill of the rider are the obvious ones.
what would be a flaw of using a dyno? have a non partisan person do all the testing of each bike. people who show up a day earlier can do the testing a day earlier. I don't see any flaws
The flaws are that only Ryan has a dyno.
Some racers don't want to subject their engines
to a dyno test before the races.
It would take a LOT of time to dyno ALL the bikes,
or even those that are serious racers.
I can't see this happening.....
just dyno the winners. and if they won't.. kill them... or give them last place. behind me. dennis
Here's an idea not involving anything special. Why not just practice and qualify together, base the grid off your qualifying positions, and just have the different classes in grid separated by a couple bike lengths to keep it from tangling at the start. The classes could be separated by the ideas being discussed here based on the type of motor and general state of tune, by having a drivers meeting and announcing the run classes within the main, and the starting positions. Riders can talk about it right there if they think they should be bumped down a class, and if it's a valid complaint, they can be bumped down. If they then win, they get bumped up a class next time. That will allow for adaptability to who and what is racing at the time without anybody having to let somebody else dyno their bike or ride it. Riders can try out being hunted and being the hunter with moving around in classes based on performance.
So all in all that requires timing equipment, talking for 15 minutes about the race grid, and a log book. Feasable? Totally. The timing equipment could add an element of time attack to the mix, some record keeping for history. Who knows, this could become a big thing, since now the technology has caught up to make fast affordable bikes. Sorry if I'm assuming you don't have a transponder setup or IR gate at start/finish, the IR thing is cheap with the Ebay lap timers available for $50, if everybody can have their own lap timer, passing in a filled lap timer after a official pre-race memory erasure could be official qualifying times. I don't know how reliable these are though. AMB transponders work every time if charged, if the track has a receiver at the finish line. The problem with those is kart tracks usually don't have them unless they hold national karting events.
So all in all that requires timing equipment, talking for 15 minutes about the race grid, and a log book. Feasable? Totally. The timing equipment could add an element of time attack to the mix, some record keeping for history. Who knows, this could become a big thing, since now the technology has caught up to make fast affordable bikes. Sorry if I'm assuming you don't have a transponder setup or IR gate at start/finish, the IR thing is cheap with the Ebay lap timers available for $50, if everybody can have their own lap timer, passing in a filled lap timer after a official pre-race memory erasure could be official qualifying times. I don't know how reliable these are though. AMB transponders work every time if charged, if the track has a receiver at the finish line. The problem with those is kart tracks usually don't have them unless they hold national karting events.
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16- I like your suggestions and keep them coming, I know people are listening.
As far as transponders they are expensive. Bumping up or down a class has been suggested before, I thought Baird ran something like that at his last race.
Maybe letting the racers decide what class they want to run regardless of bike HP. We all know each other and some of us have been racing against each other for the last 2 seasons, so we know how each other ride. My brother is building a less HP bike so he can run in the ‘mid’ class, it’s safer, slower, and most likely more fun. I see others gravitating to this class also, thing is his lap times will probably be the same as his modified 6HP 4 stroke engine.
I’ve said this before, 3 classes, beginner (fun, slow guys), Novice (faster), expert (fastest). 2 heats, 12 laps each, racer with the lowest total points is winner.
I like Dennis’ (DMB) solution to the Dyno.
As far as transponders they are expensive. Bumping up or down a class has been suggested before, I thought Baird ran something like that at his last race.
Maybe letting the racers decide what class they want to run regardless of bike HP. We all know each other and some of us have been racing against each other for the last 2 seasons, so we know how each other ride. My brother is building a less HP bike so he can run in the ‘mid’ class, it’s safer, slower, and most likely more fun. I see others gravitating to this class also, thing is his lap times will probably be the same as his modified 6HP 4 stroke engine.
I’ve said this before, 3 classes, beginner (fun, slow guys), Novice (faster), expert (fastest). 2 heats, 12 laps each, racer with the lowest total points is winner.
I like Dennis’ (DMB) solution to the Dyno.
Yeah, I hear that. You can kinda tell how fast a bike is going to be just by looking at what's bolted to it, but I guess this thread came to be due to problems with doing the rules loosely, so I figured making it more clear-cut might help to make everybody happy, and to know what to shoot for when they build a bike. It's hard to build something to meet the rules when there isn't a set of definitions of what a legal bike is.
IR timing would be cheap, and the cost could be taken on by the racers to get their $50 IR lap timers. I think testing out a couple popular ones for reliability is a good idea, since I've seen people have trouble with some versions.
Placement of the IR transmitter is also important so that the laps are only split once.
Club racing gets all political no matter where you go, the key is having driver's/riders meetings and sorting the stuff out before it takes down the ship. In this economy, the fact that club racing of all types are doing so normally is really a miracle. Making all the requirements and guidelines set and known makes it so that everybody can get to focusing on riding and having fun. There is always going to be revolving safety concerns, they just need to be addressed as they come. It's no fun when somebody gets hurt, and this is 10 times more dangerous than auto racing, so we need to consider the flow of racing traffic as a major safety concern.
IR timing would be cheap, and the cost could be taken on by the racers to get their $50 IR lap timers. I think testing out a couple popular ones for reliability is a good idea, since I've seen people have trouble with some versions.
Placement of the IR transmitter is also important so that the laps are only split once.
Club racing gets all political no matter where you go, the key is having driver's/riders meetings and sorting the stuff out before it takes down the ship. In this economy, the fact that club racing of all types are doing so normally is really a miracle. Making all the requirements and guidelines set and known makes it so that everybody can get to focusing on riding and having fun. There is always going to be revolving safety concerns, they just need to be addressed as they come. It's no fun when somebody gets hurt, and this is 10 times more dangerous than auto racing, so we need to consider the flow of racing traffic as a major safety concern.
We can't afford transponders and the SoCal Motor Bicycle RaceI think transponders will solve a lot of these problems.
on Oct 20th was scored accurately in the heats and finals by
my new scoring method.
It was all done by my paid helper Alejandro and the riders.
The only thing missing was the DNF's and that's easy to add on.
Transponders will add a lot to the cost of going to the races even
though Grange has the strips built into the track with all the wiring
in the tower.
Using transponders brings along a lot of other problems too.
M1GP uses transponders at Grange but they charge about $100
a year membership and $50 practice, $60 a race plus $50 to rent a
transponder if you haven't bought one yourself.
The lovely Alejandro who works at Jim Grangers Pizza joint
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Well if you have somebody taking qualifying times there's no need for IR lap timers or the expensive AMB transponders. It's not an issue then so long as everybody is nice to Alejandro.
The reason why I suggesed the IR timers is because part of my job is timing race cars and I know how hard it is to get an accurate time or even remember to record every lap with a lot of stuff going on. The IR lap timers built into the data acquisition systems on the cars always record the lap times accurately as long as the beacon is out in the right spot. It makes it fool proof free from human error.
Seriously, it's worth trying out those IR lap timers for $50, they're meant for race cars that pass start/finish at 100+ mph so it should work on a buzz bike as long as the vibration and CDI don't get to it.
The reason why I suggesed the IR timers is because part of my job is timing race cars and I know how hard it is to get an accurate time or even remember to record every lap with a lot of stuff going on. The IR lap timers built into the data acquisition systems on the cars always record the lap times accurately as long as the beacon is out in the right spot. It makes it fool proof free from human error.
Seriously, it's worth trying out those IR lap timers for $50, they're meant for race cars that pass start/finish at 100+ mph so it should work on a buzz bike as long as the vibration and CDI don't get to it.
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We did not do everyones lap times, but we did time the fastest lap times
in the races thanks to Turkman and his iPad.
I have the same lap timer on my android phone as Bob was using.
I announced the lap times on the wireless PA during the races.
We can try the timers out at the next race on April 6th 2013.
We have been bumping riders up and down classes for a long time.
We should talk sometime about all of this.
in the races thanks to Turkman and his iPad.
I have the same lap timer on my android phone as Bob was using.
I announced the lap times on the wireless PA during the races.
We can try the timers out at the next race on April 6th 2013.
We have been bumping riders up and down classes for a long time.
We should talk sometime about all of this.
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Bob aka Turkman did a fantastic job as the flagger and timer.
Big thanks to Will too but he didn't have to do as much as he usually
does at the races.
Now I can see why my nose got sunburned!
Big thanks to Will too but he didn't have to do as much as he usually
does at the races.
Now I can see why my nose got sunburned!
If you find a good lap timer you might be able to get a major quantity deal of Aliexpress or similar and sell them or rent them to the racers at a discount. You could rent loaners out to new guys that aren't equipped yet.
If there are timers with DIP switches, the beacons could ride on the bikes and the displays could stay in pit lane. If not, a single beacon could be used (cost savings?) and the racers could carry the displays onboard and just pass them into tech at the end of qualifying.
Maybe if a timer has a malfunction there could be a default place to start, like halfway through the grid in your subclass out of fairness.
I've found that once you find some electronics you can trust for timing and scoring, then dispute over starting grid positions is nonexistent. It's beneficial to have a lap timer on your ride on track anyways, so I think that this would be a generally popular way of arranging people by their speed. If faster guys for that particular day are up front, then there isn't a ton of position switching first lap that can cause tangles.
If there are timers with DIP switches, the beacons could ride on the bikes and the displays could stay in pit lane. If not, a single beacon could be used (cost savings?) and the racers could carry the displays onboard and just pass them into tech at the end of qualifying.
Maybe if a timer has a malfunction there could be a default place to start, like halfway through the grid in your subclass out of fairness.
I've found that once you find some electronics you can trust for timing and scoring, then dispute over starting grid positions is nonexistent. It's beneficial to have a lap timer on your ride on track anyways, so I think that this would be a generally popular way of arranging people by their speed. If faster guys for that particular day are up front, then there isn't a ton of position switching first lap that can cause tangles.
There is one caveat, I was thinking about how if you're side by side with somebody there is a possibility that your display wouldn't pick up the beacon. That's not a big deal really though because the racing is determined by position, and in qualifying it's best to have breathing room on track so you can push hard, so the neck-in-neck situation wouldn't be an issue for the most part.
The AMB radio transponders get around that, but I agree they're expensive, bulky, take forever to charge, and the wired ones require 12v.
I'm not discounting anybody's ability to accurately time and score, but if you want something that doesn't involve humans for use as impartial data for qualifying and lap records, an automated system should make it simple enough if the hardware is good. SCCA autocross uses IR gates at start and finish and record driver data manually, because it isn't necessary to take multiple times simultaneously, because racers run solo sequentially. It's cool to see a sheet of the fastest qualifying times posted as official before the big race along with the grid positions, adds an extra element to the racing as qualifying takes on a new element of strategy for getting a quick lap in, along with the fastest lap bragging rights.
The AMB radio transponders get around that, but I agree they're expensive, bulky, take forever to charge, and the wired ones require 12v.
I'm not discounting anybody's ability to accurately time and score, but if you want something that doesn't involve humans for use as impartial data for qualifying and lap records, an automated system should make it simple enough if the hardware is good. SCCA autocross uses IR gates at start and finish and record driver data manually, because it isn't necessary to take multiple times simultaneously, because racers run solo sequentially. It's cool to see a sheet of the fastest qualifying times posted as official before the big race along with the grid positions, adds an extra element to the racing as qualifying takes on a new element of strategy for getting a quick lap in, along with the fastest lap bragging rights.
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Man, some of that was a tough read. Let's get back to the question of how to make the sport grow.
I am new here, but not new to racing. I plan to attend the next Grange race to watch, but I can already make some observations after reading several race threads. Other posters have mentioned some of it, but I did not take notes while reading so I can't reference the posts by name.
Since this is not racing against the clock like Solo1, or the Peak - classes will always be necessary & contentious. Adding layers of rules does not fix it, just adds to the cost to compete. Let's keep NHRA / NASA / NASCAR etc. out of this while we can.
Heats.
A "heat" is usually a short series of laps to sort out competitors by capability - both rider & machine. Since it is obvious that many of the machines & riders are getting beat up qualifying for an event they all will run I would suggest shorter heats.
As someone already stated, motocross, BMX etc. runs heats to eliminate slower riders from the field. This can be a safety issue as much as anything. But it looks like the small numbers of competitors will mean that all the riders wind up in the main. Still, using short heats will allow for better grid sorting for a main.
I would propose 5 lap "heats". Two of them. The top 4 or 5 finishers from Heat #1 can sit out heat # 2. They are the front of the grid for the main. The balance of the grid is the second heat in order of finish. This will keep the slower riders out of the way, but allow someone with skill to advance. Rather than running 24 laps before the main, riders & machines would run a max of 10 laps.
This would also leave more room in the day to further divide classes if necessary. If you manage to grow the sport, and the field gets big enough- you can begin to drop the 5 slowest riders from the second heat to control the size of the field in the main.
I see timing discussed. Chip timing foot races & bicycle races is the standard anymore. I have run enough races with a chip in my shoelaces to trust them - they can pick you out of a pack of runners 5 abreast. There are arch style timing units that will pick up a bike rider @ 75 mph. Perhaps one of these systems could be used to improve timing?
Some riders will always rise to the top. Adjusting classes by displacement / power are generally used to "level the field", but occasionally there will be a rider so good (or well financed) that it seems like you can only get a 2nd place. Try to avoid tweaking the rules for "that guy" - after the challenge is gone he will eventually switch classes or sports because he is bored with first place anyway.
Now let's look past what is already there in the sport. Someone mentioned a dirt track / flat track event. Sounds fun. How about a version of Supermoto? Is there room for that at any of the tracks in use now? A dirt or Supermoto event with a bigger field, just a straight up race with no heats might be the ticket for summertime when the temperature is an issue.
One more thing that I will throw out, then I will get off my soapbox:
Claiming class for unlimited racers.
In all my years of racing, I have never see a better way to tone down the over the top, purpose built entries. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept, it goes like this. Race entries are built to a value limit. If you enter a $3000 claiming class, you are saying that you have no more than 3k in the vehicle. At the end of the race, the winner can be compelled to sell his racer to anybody that was racing against him for the $3000. Winning a 50 buck trophy or $250 purse with a 10k value "my dick is bigger" machine is no longer as big a thrill...
B.
I am new here, but not new to racing. I plan to attend the next Grange race to watch, but I can already make some observations after reading several race threads. Other posters have mentioned some of it, but I did not take notes while reading so I can't reference the posts by name.
Since this is not racing against the clock like Solo1, or the Peak - classes will always be necessary & contentious. Adding layers of rules does not fix it, just adds to the cost to compete. Let's keep NHRA / NASA / NASCAR etc. out of this while we can.
Heats.
A "heat" is usually a short series of laps to sort out competitors by capability - both rider & machine. Since it is obvious that many of the machines & riders are getting beat up qualifying for an event they all will run I would suggest shorter heats.
As someone already stated, motocross, BMX etc. runs heats to eliminate slower riders from the field. This can be a safety issue as much as anything. But it looks like the small numbers of competitors will mean that all the riders wind up in the main. Still, using short heats will allow for better grid sorting for a main.
I would propose 5 lap "heats". Two of them. The top 4 or 5 finishers from Heat #1 can sit out heat # 2. They are the front of the grid for the main. The balance of the grid is the second heat in order of finish. This will keep the slower riders out of the way, but allow someone with skill to advance. Rather than running 24 laps before the main, riders & machines would run a max of 10 laps.
This would also leave more room in the day to further divide classes if necessary. If you manage to grow the sport, and the field gets big enough- you can begin to drop the 5 slowest riders from the second heat to control the size of the field in the main.
I see timing discussed. Chip timing foot races & bicycle races is the standard anymore. I have run enough races with a chip in my shoelaces to trust them - they can pick you out of a pack of runners 5 abreast. There are arch style timing units that will pick up a bike rider @ 75 mph. Perhaps one of these systems could be used to improve timing?
Some riders will always rise to the top. Adjusting classes by displacement / power are generally used to "level the field", but occasionally there will be a rider so good (or well financed) that it seems like you can only get a 2nd place. Try to avoid tweaking the rules for "that guy" - after the challenge is gone he will eventually switch classes or sports because he is bored with first place anyway.
Now let's look past what is already there in the sport. Someone mentioned a dirt track / flat track event. Sounds fun. How about a version of Supermoto? Is there room for that at any of the tracks in use now? A dirt or Supermoto event with a bigger field, just a straight up race with no heats might be the ticket for summertime when the temperature is an issue.
One more thing that I will throw out, then I will get off my soapbox:
Claiming class for unlimited racers.
In all my years of racing, I have never see a better way to tone down the over the top, purpose built entries. For those of you unfamiliar with the concept, it goes like this. Race entries are built to a value limit. If you enter a $3000 claiming class, you are saying that you have no more than 3k in the vehicle. At the end of the race, the winner can be compelled to sell his racer to anybody that was racing against him for the $3000. Winning a 50 buck trophy or $250 purse with a 10k value "my dick is bigger" machine is no longer as big a thrill...
B.