WHEELS for velocars, velomobiles and other multi-wheelers

[moto-klasika]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello,[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Problems to choose, find, buy or build proper wheels for any of non-leaning light motorised vehicle were discussed on many forums and here at many threads... Maybe it would be useful to collect at one place many good ideas and solutions, and bad experiences too...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]I do not have practical experiences with those issues, but collect and still collecting any information that I could find. I build simple HPV-qaudricycle for two of us (my wife and me), for cruising across and around Bern. Still have to finish and test it, so do not know if regular MTB 26“ wheels shall be good enough. If I have to reconstruct quadricycle and especially to change wheels – I shall need help to find simple and cheap solution.[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]As I could see on Internet, some people still use ordinary bicycle wheels on their 3-wheelers of 4-wheelers – but, only for HPV (no gasoline engines or electric motors). I do not know for their experiences...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Bicycle's wheels (MTB or BMX wheels) on any multi-wheel non-leaning vehicle (lighter the better), there is problems at corners and fast curves – torsional forces could be too strong. Could be said, with some irony, that issues are only with: axles, bearings, hubs, wire-spokes and rims! Tyres are relatively fat (wide and high) on relatively narrow rim - so, could be pulled aside at corners easily, if rim isn't broken before.[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Axle: problem should be solved by attachment/support on both sides in bicycle's style![/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Bearings: maybe not a problem, even quite small, they are quite good for both radial and axial (side-way) forces on standard hubs (balls between tow cones); so-called cassette type (ball-bearings), are more sensitive under side-forces...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Wire-spokes: could be changed, but too complicated and expensive way (should be imported) and done by experienced persons (amateurs or professionals)...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Rims: could be reinforced by some metal rings? Or welded another rim on side, that could be used as band-brake, or for belt-power?[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Special, stronger wheels for 3-wheelers could be bought here-and-there, but are quite expensive, and are not available everywhere. The same, there is possibilities to build wheels from special/stronger components, but... (always on BUT)[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]There are a few models of heavy duty bicycle wheels that could be bought in USA, but often need some modifications...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Moped wire-spoked wheels are stronger, mostly with drum of disk brakes, but probably too heavy for light vehicle. Most of them have axles of 12 mm, so have to be supported on both sides, as at bicycle or moped...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Some photos as illustration are attached (look to me as standard bicycle wheels used)...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Regards, Zoran[/FONT]

 

[moto-klasika]

... more photos with multi-wheel vehicles with bicycle's wheels!
Zoran

 

[silverbear]

Good idea with starting this thread. I'm giving the link here to my trike thread where I built my own heavy duty wheels. The information there may prove to be useful for someone else wanting strong wheels.
http://motorbicycling.com/showthread.php?t=47993
No doubt what I learned in my adventure can and will be improved upon. A good frame and strong wheels are the foundation for any motored bike project, in my opinion, no matter how many wheels are involved. Good brakes, too.
SB

 

[curtisfox]

Very good idea. Its sad Atomic Zombie had flanges for sale predrilled and ready to make hubs. They no longer sell them Silverbear and i got some just befor the went out of stock.

BUT on there site they have the how to lay-out and how to cut your own, and how they cut there's

I for one would like to know a little more on wheel building for strength............Curt

 

[curtisfox]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello,[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Problems to choose, find, buy or build proper wheels for any of non-leaning light motorised vehicle were discussed on many forums and here at many threads... Maybe it would be useful to collect at one place many good ideas and solutions, and bad experiences too...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]I do not have practical experiences with those issues, but collect and still collecting any information that I could find. I build simple HPV-qaudricycle for two of us (my wife and me), for cruising across and around Bern. Still have to finish and test it, so do not know if regular MTB 26“ wheels shall be good enough. If I have to reconstruct quadricycle and especially to change wheels – I shall need help to find simple and cheap solution.[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]As I could see on Internet, some people still use ordinary bicycle wheels on their 3-wheelers of 4-wheelers – but, only for HPV (no gasoline engines or electric motors). I do not know for their experiences...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Bicycle's wheels (MTB or BMX wheels) on any multi-wheel non-leaning vehicle (lighter the better), there is problems at corners and fast curves – torsional forces could be too strong. Could be said, with some irony, that issues are only with: axles, bearings, hubs, wire-spokes and rims! Tyres are relatively fat (wide and high) on relatively narrow rim - so, could be pulled aside at corners easily, if rim isn't broken before.[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Axle: problem should be solved by attachment/support on both sides in bicycle's style![/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Bearings: maybe not a problem, even quite small, they are quite good for both radial and axial (side-way) forces on standard hubs (balls between tow cones); so-called cassette type (ball-bearings), are more sensitive under side-forces...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Wire-spokes: could be changed, but too complicated and expensive way (should be imported) and done by experienced persons (amateurs or professionals)...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Rims: could be reinforced by some metal rings? Or welded another rim on side, that could be used as band-brake, or for belt-power?[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Special, stronger wheels for 3-wheelers could be bought here-and-there, but are quite expensive, and are not available everywhere. The same, there is possibilities to build wheels from special/stronger components, but... (always on BUT)[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]There are a few models of heavy duty bicycle wheels that could be bought in USA, but often need some modifications...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Moped wire-spoked wheels are stronger, mostly with drum of disk brakes, but probably too heavy for light vehicle. Most of them have axles of 12 mm, so have to be supported on both sides, as at bicycle or moped...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Some photos as illustration are attached (look to me as standard bicycle wheels used)...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Regards, Zoran[/FONT]

Looks like the wheels in picture #3 has wider hubs and would be more stable.........Curt

 

[moto-klasika]

Very good idea. Its sad Atomic Zombie had flanges for sale predrilled and ready to make hubs. They no longer sell them Silverbear and i got some just befor the went out of stock.

BUT on there site they have the how to lay-out and how to cut your own, and how they cut there's

I for one would like to know a little more on wheel building for strength............Curt

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[FONT=verdana, helvetica]Curt,[/FONT]
​

[FONT=verdana, helvetica] I follow Atmoic-Zombi's Forum and especially very useful Tutorials. I saw what SB done in that style: it looks simple, strong and not expensive...

http://www.atomiczombie.com/Tutorial - No Lathe Trike Hubs - Page 1.aspx

I am not sure, but I think that in similar style could be built front hubs, with bearings inside, but I saw variant where axle is welded, as for rear wheels (but much shorter) with outside ball-bearings...

I am not sure that I could calculate the length of needed wire-spokes, if know dimension of hub and rim? Problem is here that I couldn't find parts for bicycles, for instance stronger wire-spokes...

A pair of photos with DIY rear hub and wheel are shown, and a pair of photos of interesting front-wheel construction...
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica]Generally, as you said: the wider hub - the better, becaus eof better agles of spokes. Also, the bigger diameter - the better: shorter spokes?[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica]Ciao,

[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, helvetica]Zoran[/FONT]​

 

[Allen_Wrench]

Something tells me that useful stuff could begin appearing here. I think I will watch this thread.

 

[curtisfox]

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[FONT=verdana, helvetica]Curt,[/FONT]
​

[FONT=verdana, helvetica] I follow Atmoic-Zombi's Forum and especially very useful Tutorials. I saw what SB done in that style: it looks simple, strong and not expensive...

http://www.atomiczombie.com/Tutorial - No Lathe Trike Hubs - Page 1.aspx

I am not sure, but I think that in similar style could be built front hubs, with bearings inside, but I saw variant where axle is welded, as for rear wheels (but much shorter) with outside ball-bearings...

I am not sure that I could calculate the length of needed wire-spokes, if know dimension of hub and rim? Problem is here that I couldn't find parts for bicycles, for instance stronger wire-spokes...

A pair of photos with DIY rear hub and wheel are shown, and a pair of photos of interesting front-wheel construction...
[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana, helvetica]Generally, as you said: the wider hub - the better, because of better agles of spokes. Also, the bigger diameter - the better: shorter spokes?[/FONT][FONT=verdana, helvetica]Ciao,

[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, helvetica]Zoran[/FONT]​

Thanks for the pictures,shows good detail. The one looks like it is a motor cycle rim and that is really wide center hub, very intresting.

I have also seen on Atomic Zombie were they take a 10 speed hub that comes apart and put a longer tube in the center of the hub. I have a Enfield 3 wheeler trike it also has hubs about 1" wider hubs then a regular bike wheel.

 

[moto-klasika]

Something tells me that useful stuff could begin appearing here. I think I will watch this thread.

-----------------

[FONT=Bookman Old Style, serif]Hello Allen,[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Bookman Old Style, serif] As I said, I can't give some important contribution here, because I do not have any practical experience. I can show what I found here and there...
I will repeat that there is proper wheels for 3-wheelers and 4-wheelers, or special components to build them (axles, hubs, spokes, rims...) - but they are too expensive for most of us, and can't be find everywhere.

Some people, who are good masters in welding and machine tooling - managed to build there own wheels, looking quite strong, if not always beautiful.

At least, we could see what is possible and practical for us and what is not.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Bookman Old Style, serif]Ciao, Zoran[/FONT]​

 

[moto-klasika]

... a few more DIY wheels, welded (flat or rounded steel spokes), some with double rims!
Zoran

 

[Ludwig II]

Something that occurs is that one could use thin section rims added to trail bike drum brake hubs, with the strength and width of the one, and the style of the other.

 

[moto-klasika]

.. a few photos with quite strange, big and strong DIY wheels, used for gigantic quadricycles used on "kinetic sculptures" shows and simialr festivals.

Wheels are really big, but some ideas could be used for smaller wheels?

Ciao,
Zoran​

​

​

http://vandergreg.blogspot.ch/2013_07_01_archive.html
http://darkroom.baltimoresun.com/2013/05/2013-kinetic-sculpture-race-in-baltimore/#13

 

[moto-klasika]

... and, a few more from the same serie!
Zoran

 

[curtisfox]

Zoran
That is some KOOL stuff, and my faverate the wooden jigs,built a lot of stuff that way. Mighty big wheels,but i like the idea of tube spokes. Would be really stiff and stought,but plastic tires would be noisy.
The colapsed wheel,one looks like it had a wide center in it. ............Curt

 

[moto-klasika]

Zoran
That is some KOOL stuff, and my faverate the wooden jigs,built a lot of stuff that way. Mighty big wheels,but i like the idea of tube spokes. Would be really stiff and stought,but plastic tires would be noisy.
The colapsed wheel,one looks like it had a wide center in it. ............Curt

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello Curt,[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]You must be right - such wheels and tyres could be quite noisy!
I had something different in plan, as I am not good in welding and other machine-tool work, I could make wheels by a pair of plywood disks, with reinforcement of wooden spokes inside (or stronger polyurethane foam). Then, to add strong rubber/plastic pipe of 2" diameter as tyre over it. Then, pull on pipe wide bicycle tyre. It would look as original pneumatic tyre - I suppose that solid tyre shouldn’t be welcomed even satisfactory to me. Beside, pipe should have blocked air in it...

Real wooden wheels, in a style of veteran cars are beyond of my possibilities...

Maybe some new ideas, for simple, big and and cheap wheels shall appear here... It would be simpler to use smaller and fat wheel-barrow wheels that some people use, even for light airplanes. But, I do not like that style...[/FONT]


[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Ciao, [/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Zoran[/FONT]

 

[Ludwig II]

Wheelbarrow tyres don't work for anything except carrying loads slowly. Light aircraft, perhaps, but how durable is the rubber, and what side loads are they made for?

Avon do the Speedmaster motorcycle tyre, but unfortunately no longer as a square section. Perhaps there are vintage sidecar tyres out there from other sources.

 

[moto-klasika]

Wheelbarrow tyres don't work for anything except carrying loads slowly. Light aircraft, perhaps, but how durable is the rubber, and what side loads are they made for?

Avon do the Speedmaster motorcycle tyre, but unfortunately no longer as a square section. Perhaps there are vintage sidecar tyres out there from other sources.

------------------------------
... on most of such wheels, tyres are with note "not for highway use"! Probably not for any speed and stronger cornering? Illegal on any street or raod. Wheels are different: metal or plastic, needle bearings or casette ball bearings, or plain bearings... There are variant with solid fat tyres... At least: to change tyre with one from scooter. Not for my taste anyway. Maybe to use wheel as hub for bigger spoked wheel? Still just to think about all that. For some time my ordinary MTB wheels 26" on HPV-qaudricycle - should be good (I hope so).
Zoran

 

[curtisfox]

I cut the hubs out of lawn tractor wheels with keyway in them and cleaned them up on lathe,and sent them to Silverbear for his tadpole build. He then built flanges for spokes and welded them on. .............Curt

 

[moto-klasika]

I cut the hubs out of lawn tractor wheels with keyway in them and cleaned them up on lathe,and sent them to Silverbear for his tadpole build. He then built flanges for spokes and welded them on. .............Curt

[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Hello Curt,[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]I will try to find some photos of that modification - sound quite good idea... For any reconstruction or DIY building of wheel for velocar, good starting point is to make, or to buy - proper hubs, with good axle and adequate bearings...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]
I still think about using my MTB 26” wheels with some modifications if necessary: to make them stronger and more resistant to side forces (anti-twisting reinforcements). Maybe to make additional flanges that will add new support to rims (by spokes)? Maybe to add new rim, that could be used for belt-transmission (or outside belt-brake) – with reinforcements to regular rim and connection to original or additional and bigger flanges... Maybe to install plywood-disk, as one Russian guy did... Still, just winter-thinking...[/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS, cursive]Ciao, Zoran[/FONT]

 

[moto-klasika]

... and, a few more pictures with additional rims and other reinforcements!
Zoran