too rich fuel mix?

Discussion in 'Motorized Bicycle General Discussion' started by steven627, Apr 25, 2010.

  1. xseler

    xseler Well-Known Member

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    That be me! I also run the cantankerous CNS V3 carb --- of which I've gone to a smaller jet and drilled out the brass plug for additional adjustment. The machine runs fine (along with my 8 year old Echo weed whacker).
     
  2. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    Lol.... I figured youd stand up when you read that post, I figured I'd let reveal yourself if you wanted, didnt feel it was place to call names when a grown man will let his self be known of he wants.

    Im a very big fan of Echo products and know for a fact that they wont put their name on something that isn't top notch.
     
  3. truckd

    truckd Active Member

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    #23 truckd, Jul 19, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  4. 2door

    2door Moderator
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  5. rogergendron1

    rogergendron1 New Member

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    adding more oil actually leans it out !!!

    think about it like this rich and lean are terms used to describe how much gas a motor is getting so ..

    if you have 2 of the same bikes and one is run at 100:1 and the other at 10:1 and bolth are jetted the same the bike with 100:1 is getting MORE gas because there is less oil mixed in the fuel taking up space its getting like 99% gas and 1% oil where as the bike with the 10:1 mix is getting less gas because the fuel is made up of 10% oil and 90% gas

    so 10:1 is more oil and its 90% gas
    100:1 is less oil and 99% gas

    wich mix would run richer ???
    the 100:1 !!!! why because there is more gas in the fuel

    so remember adding oil actually LEANS OUT YOUR MIX !!!!!!!!
     
  6. rogergendron1

    rogergendron1 New Member

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    and anyway i am another one who just fills it up with 32:1to 40:1 mix lucas oil and rides it like he stole it right out the box and all my builds have clean piston crowns and good cylinders with nearly no scraches or scuffs on the piston
     
  7. BarelyAWake

    BarelyAWake New Member

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    ...yes & no, when using the terms "rich" & "lean" to describe oil to fuel ratios, then there's a bit more to it then that.

    To carry the example;

    more oil = less gasoline per volume, lean fuel/oil mix or rich oil/fuel mix
    less oil = more gasoline per volume, rich fuel/oil mix or lean oil/fuel mix

    ...but fuel/air mix rich or lean is yet another aspect entirely and although loosely related to premix ratios, should not be confused with the others as fuel/air mix supersedes all else and even the smallest of changes in that has far more profound effects then comparatively minor variances in premix ratios.

    You can after all easily have a "rich" oil/fuel mix and a "rich" fuel/air ratio (& vice versa, etc.), depending on the carb's settings and your premix both.

    I try to avoid the terms "rich" & "lean" when describing oil/fuel ratios as it's so much more common to be referring to the fuel/air mix, it's just too confusing for others unless specified clearly, exactly what aspect is being referred to & why.
     
    #27 BarelyAWake, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  8. Goat Herder

    Goat Herder Gutter Rider

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    Not only could the fuel be less simply because there is more oil in it. One think has been left out? Thicker viscisity means the same said jet orfice will only let so much thicker liquid through at once.

    A better picture here might be shoving peanut butter through the same size hole, then say water.

    Oil is thicker than gasoline. More oil gets thicker gasoline.
     
    #28 Goat Herder, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  9. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    honestly Im not to sure about any noticeable viscosity differences that could be realized between Fuel/Oil mixes since the actuual amount of oil that is in the fuel is so little compared to the amount of fuel and the oil is so dissolved in the fuel, but I do know that no matter what mix ratio is being run, it is important that the carb have the correct jetting for that mix along with several other deciding factors.

    I know I can run straight up 100:1 Opti2 mix or I can add about and ounce of Maxima 927 Castor to 1 gallon of my 100:1 mix and not see any difference in performance and see no difference when I check my plug color.

    I add the Maxima 927 Castor product because it has Castor oil + a high grade synthetic oil, since I run my engines hard for miles at a time and because I live where it is normally hot and dry I like knowing there is just a tad more protection going into my engines.

    Adding the slight bit of extra oil to my mix has never shown any signs of causing a lean run Air/Fuel mix condition, possibly because I dont jet my engines on the lean side to begin with, but I do jet them to have very little 4 stroking which produces a very light brown plug color.

    I think its always a good idea on these engines to jet toward the slightly rich side rather than on the lean side, performance wont be that much difference overall but the life of the engine may be extended by keeping a bit more oil in there for lubrication and the extra fuel for keeping things a little cooler since the fuel is actually the coolant of the two.

    Map
    .dnut.
     
    #29 mapbike, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  10. Goat Herder

    Goat Herder Gutter Rider

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    On my Morini with the great big Carby on it dang sure knows when the oil ratio got changed. Runs like turd. All I have to do is go from 32 To 1 to 50 to 1 and my jetting is so far off it is ridiculous.

    Do this then make a cute little orfice to simply pour the fuel through and get back with us? I am convinced it will drain slower. From

    experiance. Already done it.......
     
  11. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    did you do your test by having the mix drawn with equal amounts of vacuum through your "cute little orifice?"

    if not the test cant be an accurate account of anything.

    I dont really care about any of that anyway, we all agree that it is important to have the carb jetted correctly so that someone gets good performance and doesn't fry their engine, all sorts of stuff people can theorize and nit pick about that doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

    Map
    .dnut.
     
  12. Bikeguy Joe

    Bikeguy Joe Godfather of Motorized Bicycles

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    Not to mention the air temp will change your "mixture".

    Hot air will mess up a lot of stuff, haha.
     
  13. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    lol..........!
     
  14. Goat Herder

    Goat Herder Gutter Rider

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    One is thinner one is thicker. That don't take a rocket scientist to figure out? Simple physics. Ever try cramped hands on a oil bottle only to find out the harder you tried it fought back. Some oils react differant under pressure too.


    equal amounts of vacuum through "cute little orifice?" Here is a nonchalant answer to loading that vacuum up. Represents a static load on the oil. IMO

    If I went to school as a engineer? I am sure they would teach me this stuff

    higher pressure causes the viscosity to increase....

    Taken from here... http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/oil_viscosity.htm


    I am not saying that is a only effect of course fuel has been oiled down.. I stand by viscosity being a contributing factor as well.. These both work hand in hand perfect. The outcome of said effect. Leaning out a mixture poteintally wrong.

    Lets not forget stuff like altitude, Jet size, temp..... heck the list goes on.

    Right about now I think it would be important to say. Consider manufacture's recomendations for their oil is most important advice for many a newbee in light of all the potiental confusion.

    How about a fellow tuning his carb for the wrong oil ratio. I have done it. Takes a fellow awhile to figure it out but that gunks things up. If the oil flash point is right and fuel ratio optimal? That motor should stay clean!! Run baby Rundnutdnut
     
    #34 Goat Herder, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  15. Goat Herder

    Goat Herder Gutter Rider

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    Put all your stock jets back in those 100 to one motors and get back with us. I seam to remember you posting forever how you were very happy after that? What happened?

    Also wanna say that the bigger the carby the more fun this phenomena can get on these tiny little engines. Got about 4 19mm's and two 21mm's out of all of them my Dellorto PHBG is by far my favorite to date!



    Manufacturer's oil specs is definitely the place to start!!
     
  16. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    I have no idea what you're talking about with me posting about going back to stock size jets in anything, not one single time have I ever posted a comment about that and since 2009 I having been soldering and drilling the jets for all of my engines.

    Myself and Tom are usually always the first to point people toward soldering and drilling their jets inorder to get the correct size for their engine setup and all the other factors that require tuning the carb to.

    Bottom line is tuning these little china girl engines to run like they should with the right Fuel/Air ratio is very simple and easy to do and I have never advocated in any way that using the stock jet size was the way to go on any engine I have or anyone else for thank matter.

    No need for this conversation to continue since its not important and the viscosity thing dont mean didly squat to me, getting the ratio right on these little hunks of junk is a very simple thing to do no matter what oil is being used as long as someone isn't piling it on with the overkilling 16:1 mix.

    no need for anyone to get all wound up and overly technical about things that dont mean much to most and will not in any way help someone get their carb tuned properly.

    Peace, Map
     
    #36 mapbike, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  17. Davezilla

    Davezilla New Member

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    This is probably the best advise out there... Each oil is formulated to run best at the ratios they're designed for and the most simple basic way to do it is to follow the manufacturer's specs until you get a really good idea on what will work for your specific needs... aside from all the different advise given in the forums, the best advise is usually right there on the label of your favorite oil... then there's plenty of arguements on which oil is best etc, etc, but following the manufacturer's advise first will usually keep you from burining up your engine from not enough oil or smoking all over the place, running too lean, and fouling plugs etc from too much oil.

    I'm not saying to only follow the manufacturer's specs, but to do it until you got a really good knowledge of what you're doing and/or you can totally trust the guy in the forum telling you different. Once you get to know what you're doing then you can experiment with other ratios and adding castor oil, methanol, nitro etc, etc, etc...
     
  18. Davezilla

    Davezilla New Member

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    Very well said... It's so easy to get way too wound up about every little thing in here and over analyzing people's posts about something that has little to no relevance ... I could care less about who discovered oil or what it does at it's molecular level or how oily this oil is compared to brand B etc...
    The bottom line is does it work or does it not work for what someone is intending to do with it...
    What's important is the mix ratio and the manufacturer's specs, stay close to both until you have a really good grip on what will or won't fry your engine... Most newbs come in here wanting to know a simple answer and if a certain brand or type is safe to use, and with very few exceptions... I'm sure if I was wanting to know what mixes work best and what oils work best I could care less at that point which one has what viscosity or which one is more oily than which... I'd just want to know is the brand I'm asking about ok to use and maybe want a few suggestions to other brands and how they did etc...
    I've been using Amsoil in my 2 smokers at 50:1 and 100:1 depending on which oil grade I'm using and what the bottle tells me to mix it at for decades, mainly because I know Amsoil is an excellent oil regardless of whether it's in my cars, my Harley, or mixed up for a small 2 smoker, but after seeing some sensable posts without all kinds of fluff and getting rediculously sceintific about it concearning the Opti2 brand I decided to give it a try and I'm glad I did. I've also been an Amsoil dealer for several years but from personal experience, the Opti2 wins in the China Girl engines when mixed at 100:1, sure it may not be so effective in other type 2 strokers, but it really works wonders for these little engines so I'll recommend it in here at the ratio I use it at regardless of what I sell on the outside.
     
  19. mapbike

    mapbike Active Member

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    I completely agree Dave and Goat Herder, following the manufacturers recommendation for their product is always a good way to go.

    Map
     

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